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antifeminism internal debate misogyny MRA reddit

MRA: We shouldn’t tolerate misogyny in the Men’s Rights movement. Reddit Men’s Rights mods hit the delete button.

You must be THIS MAD to post in the Men’s Rights subreddit.

Here’s a suprisingly candid comment from an MRA in the Men’s Rights subreddit, challenging the misogyny within the movement:

MRrightsbot

Oh, wait, that’s not from the Men’s Rights subreddit. HalfysReddit did originally post this to the Men’s Rights subreddit, but the mods deleted it, and so now the only reason it’s still available is that there’s a bot that automatically reposts all self-posts to the Men’s Rights subreddit.

Before it was deleted, HalfysReddit’s post did inspire some discussion amongst the Men’s Rightsers. Well, it was “discussion” only insofar as a bunch of comments telling HalfysReddit to stuff it counts as discussion. Here’s one thoughtful comment:

MRrights2

Sorry, did I say “thoughtful?” I meant “delusional.”

Though I’m pretty sure he’s right that feminists aren’t going to fight for anonymity for rape defendents or the “right of paternal surrender.”

Oh, and here’s a guy comparing Men’s Rightsers to the Black Panthers.

MRrightsBlkpanthers

The Men’s Rights subreddit, where the notion that MRAs should tone down the misogyny a bit is too radical to even debate.

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titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

Damn, for a moment there I believed sanity had struck Reddit MRAs. Silly me.

MordsithJ
7 years ago

That gif is mesmerizing.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

“Help us get anonymity for rape defendants” – funny how it’s only that crime they want anonymity for. They’re perfectly happy for anyone else on trial to be known. I wonder why that would be …

And it’d be a sucker’s bet that they’re only interested in anonymity for male rape defendants.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Again, the only time they recognize Black men is when they’re trying to make a point. A poorly thought out, self-aggrandizing point.

reginaldgriswold
reginaldgriswold
7 years ago

Since when is looking for anonymity for rape defendants a thing of theirs? Is this in the wake of the Steubenville case? Every time I think they can’t sink lower…

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
7 years ago

This post’s title is like the whole process of discovering MRAs in miniature. “What? Well, that seems reasonab– wait, no, that’s terrible.” It was a tiny roller coaster of hope and dashed hope. 😀

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Protecting rapists (sorry, poor innocent men falsely accused by bitchez) is always an MRA thing, though they won’t really be happy until there’s no such thing as rape in any legal system.

bsmechanic
7 years ago

Judging by theozoph’s own post:

“Well, choose another fight, then. This one will get ugly before it gets better, and we don’t need people going in half-assed.”

… “half-assed” would be an upgrade.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

I love it when these assholes complain about how they need a reprieve from “political correctness.”

We see you, dudes. You’re only interested in maintaining the status quo. The hilarious part is that you fancy yourself rebels, which is the whole point of villainizing “political correctness.”

Damn, for a moment there I believed sanity had struck Reddit MRAs. Silly me.

Can we not equate wrongness and hatefulness with insanity? Society doesn’t need any help from us to further stigmatize mental illness.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

What could Aaod possibly be thinking if when he talks about his hatred of first wave feminism? Because Seneca Falls doesn’t seem vulgar to me. I’m also pretty sure that actual first wave feminists policed their tone and had their tone policed.

The problem with the MRM isn’t their tone, it is their substance. Apparently, though, to Aaod, hating women is a tone. Words are so different in MRM-land.

drashizu
drashizu
7 years ago

I always associated discussion of tone-policing and how it was actually just a way of silencing minority dissent with the 2nd wave.

I hope the MRM fast-forwards through that part and get to the part where they recognize that saying hurtful things to other people actually hurts them, and does so independently of whether you’re using it in the context of social justice discourse or not, and is therefore not compatible with social justice at all. But I’m not holding my breath.

drashizu
drashizu
7 years ago

(To clarify, not all tone-policing is legitimate criticism of hurtful/kyriarchy-reinforcing slurs or repeated stereotypes, and some tone-policing is really just an attempt to silence minorities and prevent them from expressing a totally reasonable level of outrage and frustration. But the MRM went past “totally reasonable” a long time ago and are mostly bogged down in “utter misogyny” or “downright misanthropy” by now, however the tone discussion for them might have started.)

Shaenon
7 years ago

Dude’s got a point. As a feminist, I’m not on board with protecting rapists, allowing men to abandon their children to starve, giving boys special advantages in the classroom so they won’t have to grow up knowing that girls are just as smart as they are, letting abusive husbands and fathers exploit the family court system to further abuse*, pretending that domestic violence and rape don’t happen**, or eliminating gender studies from colleges.

If those are the rights these men are fighting for, I’m not going to be much of an ally. Sorry.

*I’m done pretending that the MRA custody stuff is about anything other than this. Tip to MRA guys ranting about how those man-hating courts screwed you over: most people’s divorces don’t involve restraining orders.
**Or aren’t a big deal because men get raped and abused as much as women, which…even if that were true, which it’s not, it wouldn’t make rape and abuse OKAY. Yeesh.

Yoyo
Yoyo
7 years ago

I didn’t think you were allowed to post at all on the men’s right reddit if it isn’t totally nasty and or violent. For plus points it should include at least two of the following: demanding princesses, cum buckets, feminazis, abusive hags, etc etc

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
7 years ago

You know that topic a bit ago about whether it was possible to be an MRA and not a raving misogynist? Sounds like this guy’s an example. Having seen nothing else he’s written, I’m cautiously optimistic that he’s a decent person who’s seen that there are some problems facing men (and they do exist – the pressure to conform to a shitty version of masculinity, the difficulty of getting recognition for male victims of abuse), doesn’t think that this means he has to fight against feminism… and has looked online for groups that might be talking about this stuff, and found the MRM. Then he’s noticed that they’re shit, and… well, this happened.

piratemew
7 years ago

I usually lurk, but this pulled me out. For the briefest moment, I thought sanity had finally hit them. NOPE. It’s just crazy. I just finished reading a mess on twitter from someone who had incoherent rant about how angry he/she was at the “Dont be that Guy” posters, saying that those posters are 100% saying all men are rapists and since that’s the case, it’s victims fault for being near rapists… women rape men & transgendered all the time… it was just wow and then to see this. I need kittens and sugar free Peeps cuz my brain it just ttttturrpptttttttttttttttt

Yoyo
Yoyo
7 years ago

Piratemew, did you see the peeps dressed up as the conclave of cardinals? It made good brain bleach. 😉

KathleenB
KathleenB
7 years ago

Vulgarity? O NOEZ! How will their delicate, masculine ears (and/or eyes) recover from the shock of women swearing?

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@piratemew

Welcome! It is always great when new people de-lurk, but could you please be a bit more careful with words like sane and crazy? I am legit crazy and never has it made me hate or wish harm on anyone. I like to think that I am also more reasonable and logical than mist of the MRM and that has nothing whatsoever to do with my being mentally ill.

Thanks!

emilygoddess
7 years ago

I’m confused about the bot. It automatically makes a copy of all posts to r/mensrights, then posts the copy to r/mensrights as well? That can’t be right.

Sorry, I’m Reddit-illiterate.

Yoyo
Yoyo
7 years ago

This guy is a men’s rights HERO
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/cops-pa-guard-shot-finger-trying-to-remove-wedding-ring-during-fight.php?ref=fpblg

Not insane at all just angry, armed and resentful.

Yoyo
Yoyo
7 years ago

Sorry, some girl, I was trying to poke fun at the use of “insane” but I don’t think it came out how I meant it to. I too have had mental health probs in my past so I know how awful careless labelling can make people feel.

Tina
Tina
7 years ago

These guys think parental surrender equals abortion. Nope. And keeping the identities of rapists quiet? Do these men have daughters? Or sisters or nieces or female cousins or any female friends? Dudes just can’t handle that their base instincts are the problem. And every human being has these base instincts and has to learn how to control them. Geez, fellas, you’re human. Who’da thunk.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Yoyo

I understood that you weren’t being sarcastic, but clarifications can never hurt. 🙂 Thanks.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
7 years ago

I believe, I think, that anyone accused of a crime shouldn’t have their identity revealed until they’re found guilty, because it’s utterly shitty for people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time to go through the wringer of public opinion if they didn’t do it.

So once again we see MRAs supporting something I sort of agree with in an utterly shitty way, because “anonymity for people accused of rape” does just smack of “Stop being mean to the poor rapists!”

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
7 years ago

Hmm, just for clarity: by utterly shitty I do in fact mean that by saying things about “anonymity for rape defendants” is not something I am not condoning, because of the… worrying specificity.

MKlein
MKlein
7 years ago

Thanks, Tulgey Logger – I was also having some issues with the use of ableist terminology (“sanity,” “crazy,” etc.) in the thread. I know it’s hard because they’re so pervasive, but being shitty and hateful is not a mental illness, and it sucks for actual people with mental illnesses when they get conflated. (People with mental illnesses or mentally ill people? does the community prefer person-first language or not? I know a lot of autistic people have strong ideological objections to person-first language, but idk if it’s the same situation with mental illness).

Leum
Leum
7 years ago

@MKelein: We usually describing ourselves as having or experiencing mental illness.

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
7 years ago

The “Out in public we censor ourselves, in private we speak our minds” bit reminds me of the http://manboobz.com/2012/04/25/get-in-mah-belly-heartiste/ post, as if the acceptance of not being a douce was just some common courtesy people indulged in, mutually, all across the board and everyone secretively knew it was all just a conspiracy. But they didn’t want to “let on” but yeah, hah, everyone is really a twat.

Oh hey, fun side-note, that particular strain of delusion kept me in misery for years.

So, MRA’s, I propose a different idea: The reason people “censor” themselves in public, for any reason generally, but specifically in relation to talks about feminism? The moment you say women are against men getting a decent education, people stare at you not because you’re speaking some truth fire forged in the crucible of your inner promethean thought-god, but because you’re being a douche. The awkward silence that follows when people are not politically correct in public follows because you say stupid things that everyone else has already grasped, internalized and made part of their universe. And they need a second to reboot their brains to accommodate a culture wherein people can endorse rape camps. Oh, sorry, I shouldn’t link you to fringe extremists and random elements of your own movement because generalizing is bad, haha, yeah, and all first wave feminists were violent and angry. What I meant there was: “A second to reboot to accommodate a universe wherein people claim mens rights is about debunking feminism and the response to “Let’s not be misogynists, now” is “But have you seen women? Dude, they suck!””.

Your issue cause is not and cannot be the rights of anyone if your only direct line of thought is to be in contrast to another movement for the rights of anyone.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Good post, Fibinachi – one thing: please don’t use twat.

dusty
dusty
7 years ago

Oh not this US-centric crap again, twat is NOT a gendered slur everywhere just because it is where you fucking are. I find it offensive to be called ‘person of colour’ and using the term here will get you some raised eyebrows, but oh no it’s the accepted murrkin phrase, so nonwhite nonyanks don’t get a say in the matter. Language policing only seems to work one way here. Disappointing since so much of this crap comes from people who are sooo proud of their privilege awareness.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

“Oh not this US-centric crap again, twat is NOT a gendered slur everywhere just because it is where you fucking are.”

Oh the irony – you’re assuming I’m from the US, are you? Wrong. I’m Australian and I use mostly English-based slang, and yes, twat is a gendered term, so kindly pull your head in.

BigMomma
BigMomma
7 years ago

I’m a Scot living in Australia and I’ve always understood twat to be gendered.

BigMomma
BigMomma
7 years ago

And also I think if you are upset by the way people phrase things, you can open up a discussion with everyone rather than having getting all shouty.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

You could also try reading the threads, where you might have noticed that “the US is not the world” gets mentioned quite often, frequently – gasp! – by Americans.

elodieunderglass
7 years ago

Actually, “twat” is not generally used in America. It is, however, recognized as a gendered insult. In a moderately-safe discussion space, commenters may certainly ask for others not to use gendered insults. The proper response is to reconsider your feelings about using the word (it’s usually a slip that you honestly did NOT think about) and, if you so choose, to be more creative with your insults in the future. I’ve personally let go of “hysteria,” a word I used to be pretty fond of, but which I’ve stopped using because of its gendered past.

Like Fibinachi did, we often reach for what we *think* is a generic word only to discover, upon reflection, that it’s gendered. We simply don’t think about it very often, as it’s part of the background radiation of our lives. One problem is that our default way to insult people is by comparing them to ladyparts, QUILTBAG folks, sex workers or the mentally disabled. Upon examination, that’s not a great way to insult people.

Going forward, a perfectly good replacement word is “butt.”

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

::waves:: Hi, elodieunderglass! 🙂

ArchaeoHolmes
ArchaeoHolmes
7 years ago

Is “wanker” acceptable? I’d be a bit sad to let go of wanker.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

It certainly gets used a lot here! I don’t think it’s gendered. I tend to use tosser, too – nobody’s said anything, and I’d miss both. (Tricky to phrase any of this without double entendres, lol.)

Is that a spaniel in your gravatar, ArchaeoHolmes? I looked at the full size pic and still had to stare at it for a minute, like a puzzle. 😀

ArchaeoHolmes
ArchaeoHolmes
7 years ago

@kitteh Yes, the full-sized is all pixilated – I was hoping no-one would notice. It’s a little spaniel looking up imploringly – in the olden days.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

I can see it properly now – 19th century pic? Touch of the Landseers about it? – but when I first looked at either size I thought it was an owl, a flower or a wig! (It’s late and the chokky bikkies haven’t kicked in yet.) It is nice and clear in the hovercard size.

ArchaeoHolmes
ArchaeoHolmes
7 years ago

Hmm, Maybe I should change it, although I don’t mind if people think I have a wig for my avatar. You are right it’s late, and I should go to bed.

BigMomma
BigMomma
7 years ago

ah but Q and A is still on, guys.

BigMomma
BigMomma
7 years ago

it’s not bedtime yet, is it?

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

Late apology for my ableist language. I am sorry. /sincerity

Sid
Sid
7 years ago

Um. This is kind of late, but can anyone point out a country/culture/subculture where “twat” or any variant thereof is NOT a gendered slur? I’m having trouble imagining how that works, considering what it’s usually referring to when not used as an insult 😐

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
7 years ago

This is going to sound incredulous, but I’ve just been assuming twat was meant like someone actively tatting. Meandering meaninglessly in a silly manner. I… honestly had no idea that it was an anatomical reference and thank you for pointing it out. I guess that does make a lot of uses of it way, way more logical and coherent and reasonable? Huh, the things you learn that you really should have learned already!

I’m just going to stick with “Unspiffy” from now on. These people sometimes make very unspiffy statements. .

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

I admit I was naive as a child – I thought twat was no different from twit. Had no idea of the anatomical meaning. ah, the innocence of childhood.

Can I borrow “spiffy” occasionally, Fibinachi?

historophilia
historophilia
7 years ago

I’m pretty sure that “twat” is universally a gendered insult. It means vagina or vulva after all.

And as to the point about “person of colour”, that is in fact correct. It isn’t the right phrase to use in a British context certainly, the right term would be BME (Black and Minority Ethnic).

John Anderson
John Anderson
7 years ago

What misogyny? I saw some feminist bashing, but don’t know that it’s unwarranted. You seem to confuse feminist with woman. Are you having gender identity issues? Did it really get deleted because it opposed misogyny in the MRM or was it because it suggested that MRAs should play nice with feminists in hopes that they might some day decide to help end injustices against men. Based on the comments, it seems that the latter is true.

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