I’m still officially on my Man Boobz staycation, but I felt I needed to mention yet another example of a woman saying that men can stop rape … and getting rape threats in return.
Political analyst Zerlina Maxwell went on Sean Hannity’s show on Fox News earlier this week and made the terrible mistake of suggesting to a hostile audience that men aren’t really doing any favors to women by telling them to arm themselves against rapists. Instead, as Salon notes, she said this:
“I don’t think that we should be telling women anything. I think we should be telling men not to rape women and start the conversation there.” She told Hannity, “You’re talking about this as if it’s some faceless, nameless criminal, when a lot of times it’s someone you know and trust,” adding, “If you train men not to grow up to become rapists, you prevent rape.”
Indeed, increased rape awareness has contributed to a dramatic decrease in rape over the last thirty years.
But apparently a lot of men were shocked – shocked! – that a woman would suggest that their patronizing advice was less likely to prevent rape than rape prevention education aimed at the demographic group that is responsible for the overwhelmng majority of rapes. That is, men.
So, naturally, the angriest of these men decided they would show Maxwell just how wrong she was … by threatening her with rape on Twitter.
Here’s just one example:
Rape culture in action.
Maxwell’s supporters have stepped up to defend her and her remarks, and have started a hashtag — #TYZerlina — to continue the discussion. If you’re on Twitter, join in .
Here’s the Fox News segment in question featuring Maxwell:
I forgot, the link to the song is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok_7wwrk_DI
I can’t say or type The Amazing (Not) Atheist’s pseudonym without amending it to something more accurate. That man is such an ass pimple.
Far from being amazing, he’s just another virulent misogynist – they’re a dime a dozen.
I agree with the premise of the OP, and of Zerlina Maxwell, that parents, role models and others who are in positions of authority can fight effectively against rape by emphasizing the values of kindness for others, empathy, respect especially for those who are most vulnerable. In the OP, David credits this kind of rape prevention strategy for helping to reduce the incidence of rape in recent years. I agree with Zerlina Maxwell that it’s reasonable to begin the discussion with potential perpetrators about preventing rape by emphasizing empathy — and, presumably, protectiveness — toward potential rape victims. In my book, there’s everything right about emphasizing what is in the heart, and fostering a sense of love and protectiveness.
This is why it is so disturbing to me to read several of the comments in this thread. These comments foster a sense of suspicion against those who seem to be motivated by such a protective instinct, particularly as it applies to fathers and husbands. The sense of protectiveness toward a woman by a father/husband/boyfriend is maligned by some here as though it were actually motivated by a desire to control and dominate. And so the male protector is now lambasted as just another threat to a woman’s well-being.
Whatever feelings of love a male protector might have, whatever worries he might feel about the safety of a female loved one, whatever measures he takes because he cares, these are all denigrated by several commenters here as ultimately non-admirable. I wonder about how rape prevention campaigns are supposed to be effective, if boys are portrayed as potential rapists on their way in the door, and after experiencing the campaign, they’re derided as stifling and controlling to women’s freedom on their way out the door.
I think that what’s missing in this conversation is an appreciation for the unique qualities that men have to offer for enhancing the quality of the human experience, especially (in this case) as far as women are concerned. A man’s uniqueness is not limited to his rejection of violence; he also can be a protector and compared to women he can be exceptionally effective in that role. If boys are to be properly educated, then why not tap into that instinct in them, to help them aspire to protect those who they love (and even to protect total strangers)?
To illustrate my point, I cite the following comments from this thread:
ashley
Marie (agreeing with ashley’s attack on the motives of protective fathers, husbands, and boyfriends):
nerdypants
pillow in hell
quantumscale
Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger cites the Youtube video “Tropes vs. Women: Damsel in Distress: Part 1” from which I have transcribed the quote below:
Time index: 10:22
If patriarchy derives its power from a protector assuming a protective role and thereby a sense of authority. Obviously this sense of authority can be and has been abused throughout history. When protectiveness becomes the means to an authoritative end (rather than the other way around), obviously it should be reigned in. But in my opinion, it is a mistake to characterize the protective instinct itself (especially when exercised primarily by a man) as flawed at best and malicious at worst.
Roscoe, for all those quotes, you’re missing the point. This protectiveness is still focussed on changing and limiting women’s behaviour, as if rape is something that just happens and that women can avoid. It does not acknowledge that rape is a deliberate act by the rapist, and that the whole responsibility is on that person (of whatever gender), not on their victim.
Also, wtf “Obviously this sense of authority can be and has been abused throughout history.”? It’s one thing to talk about parents of small children having authority over them, but men automatically having authority over women is the outcome of what you’re talking about. Feeling protective of someone does not give you authority over them. It doesn’t give you any right to control their behaviour.
Nobody is saying men are all malicious in wanting to protect loved ones; the problem is that our society has the male ownership of women as its default, and controlling our behaviour is insidious, infecting even such positive feelings. As for flawed – well of course it is, humans are flawed, duh. We have an extraordinary ability to fuck up even the best of intentions or ideas.
Telling grown women that they really shouldn’t get too drunk, and definitely have to watch their drinks … totally the same as putting the bleach out of reach of a child.
Actually, I’m failing to come up with a good example of merely protecting a child, and not controlling, and failing. That should probably say something, but I suspect the point will be lost on Roscoe.
Roscoe’s comment is especially funny when you consider how clear he’s making it that in his case any “protective” instincts actually are deeply flawed. This in particular…
Oh, hey there, very familiar way of looking at gender relations. I remember you from the time I spent living in Saudi Arabia.
And it’s REINED not REIGNED. As in reining in a horse.
That always bugs me.
I dunno, given is belief that male authoritarianism is totally legit as long as you can justify it as “protective” I’d say “reigned” is less of a typo and more of a Freudian slip.
And of course I made a hilariously obvious typo in my own comment, because irony.
LOL!
It’s apt here, but it’s a typo that invades All The Things and it always irritates me.
BTW random but since I know we have multiple tea lovers here, this one? Is the best vanilla tea I’ve found. Normally vanilla tea tastes too artificial to me, but this one isn’t like artificial vanilla flavoring, it’s like what happens when you leave vanilla pods in sugar and then bake with it.
http://www.mightyleaf.com/loose-tea_flavored-black-tea/vanilla-bean-black-tea/
I’m hanging out for when it’s going to be cool enough to drink tea again … another week of high 30s weather on the way.
/random weather grumbling
Roscoe, you can go on about how wonderfully protective men are, but most men have zero clue as to where the hidden dangers are or how to avoid them. I can’t count the number of times I’ve had male friends blithely try to walk into dangerous situations. And when it comes to the threat of rape, its always assumed that just having a man there is sufficient to prevent the rape.
Men like you don’t realize that it is the men who are supposed to protect us that are most often our rapists.
Case in point, I was molested by my grandfather, who was supposed to be giving me a ride because the place I wanted to go was considered too far away for me to safely walk. All this restrict womens movements thinking does is give predatory men easy access to the best victims of all, the ones men can stick around to control and manipulate so their victim won’t tell what happened. The kind of victim who won’t be believed, because no one wants to believe that grandpa/uncle/father so and so is a rapist. The kind of victim that is going to hurt so bad just thinking about how it will impact the family, and nothing gets said.
I’m the first woman in my family to not have been raped by a male family member in generations. So yes, I have very good reason to be suspicious of men who try to protect me by controlling and restricting my life.
That is just … a staggeringly awful history. Even worse that it’s probably not that rare. 🙁
I agree with everything that pillow in hell just said, but honestly? Women don’t need specific reasons to reject the idea that they should defer to men’s “protectiveness”. “I don’t want to” is a good enough reason.
Cassandra, I totally agree with that thinking.
Another reason to reject “male protectiveness”? Life happens, and quite often there isn’t a suitable male relative or husband around to help.
As an ADULT, I have certain requirements to ensure that I have a place to live and food on the table etc. As an ADULT, I’m the person best able to determine what I need to do, and how to get it done. The vast majority of women do not have access to the wealth required to ensure that they never contravene the exhaustive list of rules to prevent rape. Like a car, like a job that ensures she’ll be home before dark (which is 4pm in the winter), like living in a pleasant suburb with no bars, large parking lots, undeveloped land, or rows of closed stores where people will be potential witnesses if someone should attack her. Like having the funds to quit her job if a co worker or boss is sexually harassing. Also, dating. Dating was started by poorer folk, who didn’t have the means (wealth) to properly arrange a courtship and marriage.
Roscoe, the “rules” prevent the vast majority of ADULT women from even taking on the responsibility of supporting their families. And you know what? The vast majority of men have never been able to support their families without the help of their wives and daughters.
There is however, one rule that absolutely stops rape in its tracks. DON’T RAPE.
Also, the implied blackmail is pretty distasteful. So either women allow men to “protect” us or we just accept rape as a fact of life? No, I do not accept those as the only options, and neither does Maxwell.
It takes a pretty twisted mind to interpret “teach men that it’s wrong to rape people” as “yay authoritarianism, it’s what’s best for women”.
DING DING DING DING we have a winner.
I haven’t had a male relative in my life since I was fifteen. Even when I did, neither would have been any use at all as a “protector” – just the opposite with my brother; the only violence in the family came from him.
Plus relating to what Cassandra said: not every woman wants to be protected or to have a man in her life. I’ve never wanted contact with my father or brother, and I have no involvement with men other than Mr K. How am I supposed to play by the rules of these so-benevolent protectors? Go out and find me some random dude to marry JUST BECAUSE?
I have no objection to someone feeling protective of those they love. Mr K and I feel that way about each other. But protectiveness does not give you the right to keep someone in perpetual childhood. Men do not have any right to authority over women – it really is that simple.
And again, all this is talking as if Teh Strangerz are the ones who commit most rapes. They aren’t. It’s those oh-so-protective men who are doing it … the fathers, the brothers, the partners, the friends, the ones the women trusted, who are responsible for the majority of rapes. Where then this “let us protect you!” message?
I’m a little leery of the “teach men more empathy so they don’t rape women” line.
How about we teach two, much simpler things: women and girls are FULL human beings, just like men and boys are FULL human beings. You don’t rape or abuse human beings.
Do we have to have huge discussions about feelings when we teach boys not to commit premeditated acts of murder?
The one good thing about guys like Roscoe is that every time they show up it reminds me how great my Dad is. I mean, even without a point of comparison he’s pretty awesome, but when you compare him to these guys he looks like a cross between Superman and the Dalai Lama.
CassandraSays, I have the exact same thought about Beloved.
I think “just because you’re horny that doesn’t mean that other people’s feelings don’t matter” would be a good lesson for all kids.
Yeah, every time I talk to an MRA I consider nominating Mr C for sainthood.