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david has questions misogyny MRA twitter

Another question: Are MRAs inherently misogynistic?

BEuLk-bCQAEQ1AS.png large

I found this hilarious faux-MRA rant on the Tweeter. I don’t know where exactly it’s from, but kudos to lordsteve, whoever he is.

My question today: Are MRAs inherently misogynistic?

I mean, obviously the people I write about regularly here are, but are there a significant number of MRAs out there who are actually well-meaning souls who’ve been taken in by MRA talking points? Or do you have to be a bit misogynistic to begin with in order to be swayed by MRA-logic?

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Nepenthe
Nepenthe
7 years ago

Mr. Rogers?

🙁

Really puts his puppetry in a new light.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Glad I’m not the only one whose mind went there.

BTW random possibly less depressing derail – coffee. Any big coffee drinkers? What kind do you like best? I grew up on Arab coffee with green cardamon, so I love that, but as I get older I seem to be developing a preference for light roasts. So, favorite roast? Favorite varietal?

I’ve had Blue Mountain and loved it, but can’t justify spending that much on coffee on a regular basis. Never had the civet coffee – is it worth trying? I know where to get it relatively cheap.

cloudiah
7 years ago

I read one AVfM article yesterday, and refuse to read one today — especially one by JohnTheOtter. But thanks for the summary!

Kittehs’, If you’re interested in that history, I think I’ve plugged the book The Warmth of Other Suns here before. Really good. It proves that 6 million African Americans left the South because they wanted MORE racism. /sarcasm (Like, seriously, the biggest internal migration in US history happened because people wanted to make their lives worse. See also: the huge migration of Californians to the dust bowl, and of poor folks to New Orleans in the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.)

Tulgey, Chuckle duck is my new favorite swear substitute.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Coffee: I love dark roasts. Probably my favorite is Lion espresso roast. Oh, and I’m a fool for Dunkin’ Donuts coffee.

cloudiah: that damn nut loaf is even better today. Just had some for an early lunch, and OMG, delicious.

drst
drst
7 years ago

@AK – okay that makes more sense, although to me the “pedestal” thing would still be misogyny since it still devalues women, but perhaps I’m thinking about it differently.

@Argenti – holy shit I did not see that comment of kamilla’s until you replied to it. GAH. No. Taking away someone’s humanity for any reason, but especially for something to do with gender, is unacceptable, I don’t care how much or little a person knows about trans* issues!

And now, I make pie. 🙂

Mayara Arend
7 years ago

I didn’t read the comments cause it might ruin the fact that I thought of a very funny comment. And it is…

“The Duggars sure seem like they are trying to create an army of their own” 😀

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Mayara Arend

Isn’t that basically what they are trying to do because of the whole “soldiers of the Lord” and quiverfull things?

sidestinkappleeye
7 years ago

ran into this online, off but on topic…
http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/5079/Banned+From+Kmart/

clairedammit
clairedammit
7 years ago

Is there a succinct term for when you read something so long and awful that your whole brain shuts down and you wind up fixating on one small little thing because if you thought about all of it your brain might melt?

I don’t know of a term for it, but I do that all the time. Usually I get fixated on some weird writing style quirk or grammatical error. It’s like tunnel vision as a survival instinct.

CassandraSays, we mostly drink coffee with chicory here. My husband is caffeine sensitive and the chicory lessens it a bit, and I hate weak coffee. We had been drinking half-caff and just recently switched back. The only problem with the chicory stuff, though, is that it turns my teeth yellow. I bought some Crest white strips, I just need to get the motivation to use them.

I just read this on tumblr:

—i get mras and mrsa confused—

one’s a virulent plague upon the vulnerable members of society which is hard to treat and even harder to eradicate

the other one’s methicillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus

howardbann1ster
7 years ago

—i get mras and mrsa confused—

one’s a virulent plague upon the vulnerable members of society which is hard to treat and even harder to eradicate

the other one’s methicillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus

QFMFT

La Strega
La Strega
7 years ago

Are MRAs inherently misogynistic? Probably not. I think a lot of them so lonely and socially backward that they have little experience with women at any level. What they most long for is male approval. Bashing feminists give them a common grievance to bond over, but it’s more about wanting to belong to a group, especially a group that seems edgy and transgressive. They’re very competitive and they egg each other on, which is why the most outrageously offensive remarks get the most support. Their influence beyond the manosphere seems limited.

Or at least that is what I want to believe…

AK
AK
7 years ago

@drst…yeah, I agree. I wasn’t explaining myself very well yesterday. I was trying to acknowledge the difference between the absolutely hateful men often profiled on here, as opposed to a guy who engages in more garden-variety and perhaps unconscious misogyny, since it’s a distinction I often see made online (“but I can’t be a misogynist! I love my wife and have female friends and don’t think all or even most women are lying bitches!”). In retrospect, it was rather unnecessary. 😉

Shaun DarthBatman Day
7 years ago

Happy International Women’s Day!

(This is what I post at teh menz asking for IMD
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=International+Men%27s+Da
because passive aggressive misandry)

cloudiah
7 years ago

In honor of International Women’s Day (on man boobz), I thought it would be fun to post examples of individual women who have done more to help men than the entire MRM. Here is one example.

ostara321
ostara321
7 years ago

Some of the men I’ve met online seem like generally well meaning people, but their experiences in life, particularly with women in their life have been extremely damaging. Some of them are genuinely angry, and for good reason. Often they just come across as hurt and bewildered. In these instances, if you listen, they will tell you horrible stories of women who abused them, often early in life. In these instances, I’m inclined towards greater empathy and kindness not only because, well people hurt that way deserve kind treatment, but also because its easier to see why their world view has been twisted that way. The misogyny these men perpetuate is more like a defense mechanism to prevent being hurt again, and the end result is a great deal of lonliness. I don’t think these guys are looking to be hurtful towards women, but they’ve learned through experience that it hurts to think better of women as a group or as individuals. And sometimes, they get caught in the cycle of abuse where lonliness forces them to overlook the redflags and choose to place their confidence or hearts in the wrong type of woman.

I can empathize to a certain extent. After all, I was abused pretty badly, pretty darn early in life too by women. Physically, emotionally, sexually, all of it. I was bullied incessantly for years by my female peers as a kid. I can definitely see being more wary of people in general, I certainly am, but I didn’t become a raging misogynist because of it. I was pretty darn fucked up for a very long time, still am in some ways, but I don’t blame every woman or feminism for the wrongs of some women. I mean, I was also bullied and abused by some men so hating whole groups of people who shared certain traits with people who’d hurt me would mean I hated everyone. Which I don’t. I agree that for someone who has been abused or had a lot of negative experiences it’s a bit easier to see where they’re coming from, just, I dunno, I don’t think it’s that most MRAs are coming from that place. A lot of the ones I see just seem to be ones who were already pretty entitled and are mad at the world when they grow up and find that women are not just for fucking them or cleaning up their messes or again are ones who did recognize some legit problems but found their way to places like AVfM and because of internalized societal sexism “took the red pill” as it were and became raging misogynist douchebags.

I am in total agreement that there definitely needs to be greater emphasis on boys and men setting and enforcing boundaries, but again, this is one of those problems that can also be combated with more feminism. If strict gender roles and retrofuck ideals of masculinity didn’t paint “real men” as guys always wanting sex, then they would be less susceptible to coercion and could feel freer to speak out about rape or sexual abuse they experienced.

Also definitely yes on how to deal with emotional shit. That’s another thing that, with strict enforcement of gender roles, is blown to the wayside. But any guy mentioning anything like that to the MRAs would be dismissed as a “mangina” or any woman mentioning that would be yelled at for trying to “feminize men”. It’s sad, really. They’re their own worst enemies.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

cloudiah – thanks for that book info, I shall look it up!

Speaking of the Dust Bowl, Ken Burns’s series on it is playing on TV here at the moment. Heartbreaking stuff. I knew it was devastating but none of the details, like the dust storms and the deaths from breathing the stuff all the time.

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 years ago

MRA is what happens when non-Alpha straight males finally realize that the mangina lifestyle is ultimately unsustainable.

And then I loled forever

Freitag
Freitag
7 years ago

How depressing:

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/08/can_men_be_taught_not_to_rape/

With the usual death/rape threats following, of course.

Falconer
7 years ago

@Kitteh’s: I like me some Ken Burns, but I never seem to have the time.

I’m working through his documentary The War, which is about as Yankee-centric as you can get, and I think I mean that. The filmmakers talked to people from four US towns about their experiences in WWII, and only one (Mobile, Alabama) is from the Confederate South. The other exception I have found so far is they talked to the late Senator Inouye about being a 17 year old witness to Pearl Harbor and serving in Italy later.

But I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. Burns makes documentaries about life in the States.

The series is just heartbreaking in places, which is one reason I’m taking it slow. If anyone wants to watch it, it’s streaming off Netflix and there’s a big ol’ TRIGGER WARNING because the series stands witness to the fighting by using historical footage. You better believe there are bodies everywhere.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: kamilla1960

I know a good few people off the gender binary, both friends and close loved ones. Don’t do that, dude.

RE: Argenti

Well, when I put it to Gigi, she gave herself antennae with her fingers and said, “But I AM a robot. Boop boop.” But you know. She’s Gigi. Were Sneak still awake, I’m sure zie could come up with something. (Send both kids your good thoughts; they’ve both been forced through hellish mental growth spurts in the past month.)

But yeah, definitely some sighs and eyerolls here. (Especially since, had we remained singlet, we’d be most likely androgynous–after all, when the alter numbers hash out to 1 female, 1 male, 4 other, 1 ? I think it’s pretty obvious which side of our bread was buttered.)

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Falconer – Yeah, I love Burns’s work too. It’s my intro to American history in some cases. I still think The Civil War is one of the greatest pieces of television I’ve seen. Like the WWII one (which hasn’t shown here yet) it’s tough going at times. We saw the one on Prohibition a couple of months ago. Didn’t stick with the one about the Rocky Mountains expedition; it lacked the immediacy of the ones with the photos and film footage.

The Dust Bowl one was heartbreaking last night: it talked about dust pneumonia. Two men who were teens at the time, part of a family of some ten boys and one girl, told how their little sister died of it when she was two. They were in tears talking about it all these decades later, particularly the brother who’d done a lot of the looking after of her. When she was ill, she cried out his name, not for her parents, and he couldn’t help her.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

+1 internet, or something, to Gigi. Not sure what the appropriate equivilant is for robots…

Seconding warm thoughts to both the kids, and any/all of: hugs, tea, chocolate, my assorted collection of toys, or my dinner — mattar paneer.

xiaobaobao
xiaobaobao
7 years ago

By the feminist standard, anything that isn’t cowering to their naive ideals is “misogyny”. In that case, I am a proud misogynist until they learn to deal with diverse opinions.

Historophilia
Historophilia
7 years ago

On the topic of posting stuff about women who have done more to help men than the hold MRM, I offer Ida B. Wells.

Pioneering African-American journalist who was a key member of the Anti-Lynching Movement. Lynching of course being something that was primarily aimed at black men. She openly challenged the discourse of the time which argued that black men were lynched because they had raped white women and deserved it. She made it clear that this was a false premise, based on horrible stereotypes which portrayed black men as animalistic and over-sexed and that lynching was due to economic and political reasons. For example the lynching of three black businessmen in her home town of Memphis because their grocery store was competition for white owned businesses.

She wrote and spoke about the issue and her actions helped kick-start the modern Civil Rights Movement.

She was awesome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_B._Wells

Historophilia
Historophilia
7 years ago

Oh wait, my bad. It was BLACK men she was helping so that won’t count for the MRA, who are only interested in straight, white, cis men.

cloudiah
7 years ago
Reply to  Historophilia

I’m raising a glass (of tea) to Ida B. Wells. She WAS awesome.

Historophilia
Historophilia
7 years ago

I know, I had to read about her for my most recent Seminar and it was hella interesting.

In fact all the reading for that seminar was great as it was primarily about women social reformers in the US in the 19th and early 20th centuries, very appropriate as the seminar was the day before IWD.

I don’t don’t even that reading list was set deliberately for the week of IWD but it was very appropriate!

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Also raising a glass (apple cider) to Ida B. Wells.

All that “they raped our wimmin” shit – so what was their excuse for lynching women?

mxe354
mxe354
7 years ago

Hey everyone,

This off topic, but I was wondering if anyone here knows of any reliable sources on domestic abuse allegations. In particular, I’m curious about false accusations of domestic abuse and the rate of reports to the authorities.

I’m wondering because all I’m finding about false domestic abuse allegations are websites like AVfM and other terrible MRA websites.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Can’t help, mxe – I don’t even know the sources here in Oz. 🙁

I wonder if the paucity of sites is because false allegations are so rare, same as the “false rape allegation” bogeyman of the MRM?

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@mxe354

This might not be helpful, but I’m gonna see if I can tease out some kind of rate using these numbers from Wikipedia

3–4 million women are beaten each year by their husbands, male lovers, or ex-husbands.

Physically assaulted women receive an average of 6.9 physical assaults by the same partner per year.

and this number from the (really biased-sounding) RADAR.

One Million False Allegations of Domestic Violence Each Year

3-4 million women * 6.9 physical assaults per year per woman = 20.7-27.6 million incidents of domestic violence (just counting male on female DV)

21.7-28.6 million incidents of domestic violence, real and falsely reported

1 million/21.7 million = .046
1 million/28.6 million = .035

That would put false reporting at 3.5-4.6% of total domestic violence incidents and that includes far fewer domestic violence incidents than actually occur and possibly an inflated number of false reports. I couldn’t find the number of reported DV incidents each year, which would be good to know. BUT I think it is safe to say the percentage of false reports of DV is not substantially higher than the percentages of false reports of other crimes.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

That’s for the US.

mxe354
mxe354
7 years ago

Oh wait, my bad. It was BLACK men she was helping so that won’t count for the MRA, who are only interested in straight, white, cis men.

Speaking of cis-centrism, I recently argued with an MRA who kept spewing MRA talking-points, and because I was getting tired of him, I decided to get a bit trollish and tell him how much of the MRM marginalizes trans* people because of its rampant transphobia and misogyny. He got really confused, telling me that I was just trying to force my trans* “agenda” on him just by saying that trans* men should be accepted by cis male MRAs.

Somewhere in that exchange with him I mentioned that I am a trans* girl. And in response, he psychoanalyzed me constantly, asserting over and over again that I’m only trans* because I’m averse to men as a result of being bullied for being a “feminine male.” He never listened to my explanations.

He was a real asshole.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Yup, you found yourself a champion asshole, mxe354! Not hard to do amongst the MRAs. 😀

mxe354
mxe354
7 years ago

@Some Gal Not Bored At All

That’s very interesting – thank you! I’m not surprised that RADAR is blowing everything out of proportion, given that it’s clearly in favor of the MRM and agrees with its main talking points.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@mxe354

He sounds like a real asshole. His idea was men bully a “feminine male” and this forces the “feminine male” to “become” trans*, thus it is okay for men to then turn their back on the trans* “feminine male”? (Or was he okay with trans*women, but just apalled by trans* men?) I am unsurprised that even when they try to make their hatred sound reasonable, it makes no fucking sense.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@mxe354

I figured it was actually better using an inflated false report number because then, when the rate is still small, it shows (just like with the false reports of rape bullshit) how ridiculous freaking out about false reports of domestic violence, but not false reports of theft, is.

You never hear anyone going on about how they won’t be left carrying a woman’s purse becauae what if she accuses them of stealing her wallet.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

mxe – I swear, if there were an Asshole Championship among the MRM, they’d all be getting medals.

mxe354
mxe354
7 years ago

His idea was men bully a “feminine male” and this forces the “feminine male” to “become” trans*, thus it is okay for men to then turn their back on the trans* “feminine male”? (Or was he okay with trans*women, but just apalled by trans* men?)

He iss one of those people who deny that they are being transphobic yet defend transphobia anyway. And he has low views of both trans* men and trans* women. (Not sure what thinks about non-binary trans* people).

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@mxe354

one of those people who deny that they are being transphobic yet defend transphobia anyway.

This always seems to me like failing a class with a 25% instead of a 0. Like, it is great that you know that transphobia (or racism or homophobia, etc.) is bad enough to deny being it, but you have no idea why it is bad and don’t care. I mean, it is better than going “I’m transphobic and proud of it” like a 25% is better than a 0, but at the end of the day, you are still failing.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Sounds to me like he’s one of those men who thinks only straight, cis, and probably white, men are people at all.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Idk, I’d consider failing with a 0 to mean they’re transphobic, denying that or not means little when it comes to perpetuating stereotypes. Think about all the people who say rape is bad, or even that they’d beat the shit out a rapist, but cheer when their buddy “gets a drunk lay”…like, that’s rape pal, not some notch in the bed post.

You can claim to be anti-whatever til you’re blue, it doesn’t mean much if you are actually whatever.

If that’s failing with a 0, then failing with 25% would be more like “I have no idea what transphobia is, mind educating me” — yes, the “educate me” is annoying, but as I said recently, I don’t mind it if the people honestly wants to be educated so as not to continue making the same mistakes.

Versus the “I’m not X, I just perpetuate X” — they think they’re right and will never learn. Being unteachable bothers me more than being wrong but open to correction.

Oh and idk about MRAs in general, but Owly insists I don’t exist, I have to pick a gender. I doubt he’d be pleased if I picked anyone besides my apparent and assigned at birth, gender, but fuck, androgyny does not exist in his tiny world. Tangentially, my timbuk2 bag has shipped, I await my messenger bag / man purse (fuck using man purse as in insult, I need to carry shit! And using it as an insult implies purses, a traditional woman thing, are lesser -> misogyny)

mxe — I had a haircut idea for my own head, but you had asked about not obviously female haircuts right? The bob / bowl cut might work, ymmv of course, but it looks fairly androgynous to me.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Argenti

On my scale, the “educate me” would be a D. Not passing, but not an F anymore at all. But, that is the scale I use in my head for feminist issues, etc. that affect me. (I have probably been talking too much grading with my sister and ways to set the curve and given this too much thought. I mean, all this depends on where most if the grades fall and who we want to benefit from the curve…)

Some Gal Not Bored at All

Oh and I hope

Versus the “I’m not X, I just perpetuate X” —they think they’re right and will never learn. Being unteachable bothers me more than being wrong but open to correction.

isn’t accurate long-term (short-term, yes, I completely agree) because that really would mean giving up on my mother on a number of different issues and I’m not quite ready to do that. FWIW, she’s always been and still is a “I am not homophobic, but…” person, but she is getting (very slowly) better about it. IDK if my sister coming out had anything to do with it or years of arguments or just time, but her anti-gay marriage arguments have dwindled over the years and many of her other anti-gay talking points she has completely abandoned.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@mxe354

Sorry that guy was being an asshole to you 🙁

pecunium
7 years ago

Esmay is preaching the, “Paternal Racism”. The idea that the South was all protective of, “their blacks”, and the only people who had problems were, “troublemakers”.

Whereas “The North” was all hostile to black people, because racism is normal, and the North didn’t have the saving grace of Jim Crow to keep the more pernicious aspects of it check; combined with the blacks who went North being more troublesome in the first place.

It’s a really shitty set of theories, but it’s not the first time I’ve seen them.

cloudiah
7 years ago

@pecunium, Yeah I know, I’ve seen it a lot too, and I want to call them the fuck out on it every time they do it. It just shows that their allergy to facts extends way past just women.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Some Gal — way late to this, but yeah, that can be a D, just barely passing, sort of (my college you needed a C or better for it to count as passing, was interesting). As for “will never learn”, I may’ve been a bit hasty in using never. More like “not without more effort than I’m ever putting into a troll”…I keep slowly trying to convert my mother to less conservative thinking, with moderate success. Idk, two steps forward, one sequester backwards >.<

itsabeast
itsabeast
7 years ago

The one MRA I know who doesn’t hate women (also the one MRA I know personally) has pretty much given up on the larger MRA community. As far as internet MRA’s, Robert Franklin at Fathers and Families does not seem misogynist or even unreasonable most of the time. Sometimes his facts are wrong, especially on the subject of domestic violence, but he overall seems like a decent and thoughtful person. It’s very telling that pretty much the minute he took over the site from Glenn Sacks he shut down comments on the site completely. Seems he knows the base of the movement all too well.