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david has questions misogyny MRA twitter

Another question: Are MRAs inherently misogynistic?

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I found this hilarious faux-MRA rant on the Tweeter. I don’t know where exactly it’s from, but kudos to lordsteve, whoever he is.

My question today: Are MRAs inherently misogynistic?

I mean, obviously the people I write about regularly here are, but are there a significant number of MRAs out there who are actually well-meaning souls who’ve been taken in by MRA talking points? Or do you have to be a bit misogynistic to begin with in order to be swayed by MRA-logic?

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howardbann1ster
7 years ago

Better.

Deoridhe
7 years ago

More and more I’m coming to the belief that what is true for an aggregate of people cannot be true for every individual in the aggregate. Meaning, any generalization about a large group of people will inherently include individuals who do not meet the generalization.

That being said, I have yet to meet an MRA who didn’t hold a significant number of inaccurate, misogynistic beliefs. However, some of those beliefs (like the idea that women rule the world because men want to have sex with us) are actually mainstream beliefs and part of the cultural narrative, and thus it’s difficult for me to blame people having those beliefs on being MRAs; rather it appears like the general acceptance of those beliefs make it easier for otherwise compassionate people to become MRAs.

This is totally a tangent, since that’s how I roll, but what got me thinking about this was a comment made by a Conservative woman when talking about the difficulties in relating to her Liberal sister. Paraphrased, she said: “I don’t want to talk to her about politics because Liberals are Selfish, and I know my sister isn’t selfish, so I don’t understand why she’s Liberal.” Now some of us might jump right to “ask and find out, you coward!” or a similar condemnation of her trepidation, but I think the underlying fear is that she will discover her sister is selfish, or she will discover that her sister isn’t which implies that she is somehow selfish since Liberal and Conservative are opposites which share no commonalities.

One of the major underpinning flaws in our culture, I think, is this idea that opposites share nothing in common. One of the places you see it most clearly is with gender – men are not-women and women are not-men and any attempt to broaden women means men becomes that much narrower. I think a significant percentage of people buy into this belief unconsciously, even feminists, which contributes to the explicit issues you see with what could be otherwise unoffensive statements. Implicitly, people react as if when feminism is focused on making women “strong” that means it must also make men “weak” instead of taking the pov that all people are both strong and weak, depending on circumstances; the latter idea is very threatening to the self-image of a lot of people who don’t want to see themselves as weak, and thus you get the rationalized, emotional reactions we often see when feminism is brought up in formerly male-dominated arenas.

There’s a blog post in there, if I clean it up enough.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Deoridhe

“I don’t want to talk to her about politics because Liberals are Selfish, and I know my sister isn’t selfish, so I don’t understand why she’s Liberal.” Now some of us might jump right to “ask and find out, you coward!” or a similar condemnation of her trepidation, but I think the underlying fear is that she will discover her sister is selfish, or she will discover that her sister isn’t which implies that she is somehow selfish since Liberal and Conservative are opposites which share no commonalities.

Or that she will have to confront that she already believes that her sister is selfish and doesn’t want to. This seems to be the case when my mother and I talk about politics (or seemingly non-political issues that got some weird Fox News spin). She believes enough that liberals are stupid and selfish and other horrible qualities that, when confronted with my sister’s or my politics, she then has to confront that as liberals, she thinks my sister and I are just like all other liberals. As her daughters, we mostly get along okay. It is probably a bit more complicated and the cognitive dissonance allows lots of little permutations, but my mother does believe we are everything she believes liberals are. She goes from thinking of us as her smart, kind, well-informed, technologically capable kids to dumb, selfish, immoral liberals who know nothing about the world, can’t use the internet enough to find original sources, etc. Some of it is probably just tit-for-tat because when politics come up she has to confront what my sister and I really think of her, but I know there is genuine belief in there too.

ostara321
ostara321
7 years ago

It seems dominated by the sort of people who would have dismissed the original men’s liberation movement as “manginas.”

Yep. This is the thing that really irks me about the MRM. It isn’t that there aren’t legitimate concerns or that there aren’t ways to address those concerns. It’s that there are legitimate issues and legitimate ways to combat those issues and the MRAs are tainting something that could be progressive. Where I work we have a number of advisors on campus who work a lot with men one on one and in groups to talk about issues of masculinity and how perceptions of manhood can be damaging and need to change, but DON’T turn around and blame feminism for the problems (and more often than not, point to feminist themes as a means of combating harmful gender roles). It’s a super positive thing and they dress it up with goofy mustache lolipops and whatnot in order to show that it doesn’t have to be super serious. It’s a really good thing for our male students to see some of these successful, confident, older men unafraid to challenge traditional, kyriarchal bullshit narratives of what men are “supposed to be like”.

I guess I have more annoyance for the MRM in some ways just because I’ve seen some people do it right, and it hurts my head to see some people do it just so hideously, horribly wrong and dismiss those who have the right idea as “not real men” (as I’m sure they would of many of my male coworkers solely for being more feminist leaning).

So to answer David’s question, I’ll say, in agreement with others that, no, one is not necessarily misogynist to think there are real men’s issues that need to be addressed, but the way so much of the online MRAs present so much bullshit, woman-blaming garbage in response to those issues, I’d say the chances of not being at least a bit sexist and a follower (not in jest or horror) of any one of those blogs are pretty darn low. Particularly because, as others have said, the MRM exists within an already pretty sexist global society that only reinforces their sexism.

Hrovitnir
7 years ago

Mm. I tend to think that much like how ingrained racism is in western cultures, everyone absorbs a certain amount of misogyny, and it takes an actual effort to recognise and move away from that.

So obviously women have more at stake and are more likely to do so; equally, men, especially if privileged on other axes, find it easier to take the step into overt and entrenched misogyny. If that makes sense.

Basically, I don’t think that all people in the MRM are necessarily that much more misogynist than your average person. But of course it’s far more likely and the stats are well skewed toward actually despising women.

drst
drst
7 years ago

I think it depends a bit on your definition of misogyny. If you’re using it to mean an actual hatred of women, then yes, I do think it is possible for someone to identify as an MRA but not be a misogynist. However, using it in the more general sense, then no, I don’t think it is possible.

@AK – Hunh? “Misogyny” means “hatred of women.” Kind of literally. What are you thinking is a “general sense” definition of it?

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

The Macquarie Dictionary is broadening its definition of misogyny to include entrenched prejudice against women after PM Gillard’s speech in which she called the Opposition Leader a misogynist:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/misogyny-definition-to-change-after-gillard-speech-20121017-27q22.html

I’m inclined to agree that it’s more than visceral hatred or revulsion against women, but also a stronger term than sexism.

AK
AK
7 years ago

@drst–the dictionary definition of misogyny is a hatred of women, yes, but it is also often used to describe behaviors and attitudes that aren’t an overt hatred of women. For example, men who put their girlfriend on a pedestal and think she can do no wrong are objectifying her, which is often considered a form of misogyny, even though they certainly don’t hate her–they just don’t really see her a full, complex person. Does that make sense?

ellex24
7 years ago

@tedthefed – That Cracked article is really interesting. I sent it to my brother and asked him what he thought about it. He thinks it’s “a load of bullshit”, but that he knows “guys that really do buy into all that – and they’re assholes”.

He also said that while there’s a grain of truth in the article regarding societal and media pressures and norms, and that he does feel that to a certain extent they skew people’s expectations – both men’s and women’s – he feels it’s like the arguments about cartoon violence inciting violence in people: basically, he’s an adult and can tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

He also said that he doesn’t feel that he thinks about sex any more or less often than most other men, but that (once again) he’s an adult and can control his own mind, and if it’s not an appropriate time, place or circumstance to think about sex, then he doesn’t think about sex.

I love my brother. He’s awesome.

pillow in hell
pillow in hell
7 years ago

I think that some of the men who get drawn in to the MRA movement probaby have only the usual amount of sexism everyone picks up from the culture, but there’s an added component.

Some of the men I’ve met online seem like generally well meaning people, but their experiences in life, particularly with women in their life have been extremely damaging. Some of them are genuinely angry, and for good reason. Often they just come across as hurt and bewildered. In these instances, if you listen, they will tell you horrible stories of women who abused them, often early in life. In these instances, I’m inclined towards greater empathy and kindness not only because, well people hurt that way deserve kind treatment, but also because its easier to see why their world view has been twisted that way. The misogyny these men perpetuate is more like a defense mechanism to prevent being hurt again, and the end result is a great deal of lonliness. I don’t think these guys are looking to be hurtful towards women, but they’ve learned through experience that it hurts to think better of women as a group or as individuals. And sometimes, they get caught in the cycle of abuse where lonliness forces them to overlook the redflags and choose to place their confidence or hearts in the wrong type of woman.

One thing I have never seen addressed about mens needs is the fact that boys and men also need to be taught about having good personal boundaries and how to recognize and deal with people who blatantly ignore boundaries or look for partners to abuse. This is part of toxic masculinty, but gets pushed to the side all too often.

Also, I think more needs to be said about how to handle disappointments and heartbreak in terms of intimate relationships. Or how to create intimate but nonsexual relationships with others. I know far too many (older) men who’s only source for managing their disappointments is either their mother or their wife. Which leads to huge issues in the event of death or divorce.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

I can’t really answer this question, because I don’t know any MRAs. The only contact I have is with the trolls, and they’re extreme misogynists.

Kim
Kim
7 years ago

The pua’s say what guys like to hear. You can have tons of women surrounding you by being a jerk.

You have to be misogynistic to believe that in the first place.

Shaenon
7 years ago

In other news, anyone remember Tropes vs. Men, the film project about “misandry in video games” that some MRAs set up in response to Anna Sarkeesian’s inexplicably controversial Tropes vs. Women in Video Games project? Anyone familiar with MRAs will be shocked, shocked to learn that, after raising $3,000 on IndieGoGo, the organizers vanished, producing nothing to date except for three charity letters which may be forgeries.

http://www.gameranx.com/features/id/13224/article/the-mystery-and-fraud-of-tropes-vs-men-in-videogames/

Elsewhere, the first installment of Tropes vs. Women in Video Games went up today:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/7/4076560/watch-first-episode-of-tropes-vs-women-by-anita-sarkeesian

katz
7 years ago

More and more I’m coming to the belief that what is true for an aggregate of people cannot be true for every individual in the aggregate. Meaning, any generalization about a large group of people will inherently include individuals who do not meet the generalization.

I absolutely agree with you in general, but I do think there’s an exception for defining features of a group of people. For instance, “all Trekkies like Star Trek.” So the question is whether misogyny is such a defining feature of the MRM that someone who isn’t a misogynist is, by definition, not an MRA. (I cautiously don’t think so, but I understand why one might.)

katz
7 years ago

Anyone familiar with MRAs will be shocked, shocked to learn that, after raising $3,000 on IndieGoGo, the organizers vanished, producing nothing to date except for three charity letters which may be forgeries.

Shocked, I tell you! It cracks me up that someone actually put “mystery” into that headline, as though “someone gets gullible people to give him money and then just takes it” is just a baffling occurrence.

Elsewhere, the first installment of Tropes vs. Women in Video Games went up today:

Woot! Watching immediately.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Shaenon

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

Ugh. That TV Tropes forum discussion I mentioned earlier? One of the major players on the MRA-ish side is making the claim that past oppression of women wasn’t oppression at all – no, men instinctively value women’s lives above their own, and things like not permitting women to have paid jobs just prove how noble and self-sacrificing men are, doing all the horrid work themselves so the ladies can be safe at home!

moreorlessdan
moreorlessdan
7 years ago

@pillow in hell

A friend of mine fits your description fairly well. After two relationships that did not end well he got very angry and bitter. And he stayed angry for a long time. His third relationship was sabotaged due to his own jealousy. After many years he has eventually managed to have a healthy relationship again. Yet, he still has a very defensive mra-esque streak. If a conversation is about sexism in gaming he loves to derail it with things like “women objectify men too”, “men are provided unreasonable expectations and role models for masculinity”. some of it is complete crap, some of it, he would almost have a point if he wasn’t just swinging wild because of his defensiveness.

When i read the cracked article I was confused, initially, about where it went astray. The first two points were 1. Men have been raised to have unreasonable expectations about romantic partners, and view women as a reward. 2. Men are trained to see women as decoration. From what I could tell, up to that point, it seemed liked the author was trying to explain, and pinpoint, the ways in which misogyny was socially shaped. And then his next three points hit and each one was worse than the last. The article descends into pseudo/evo-psych They also sounded increasingly defensive about genetic programming, as if to say – “Hey, cut us some slack it’s really difficult to not be a jerk, because of genetics.” So what started as a good idea, talking about the relationship between society/men/misogyny, took a left turn into defending the male “genetic code”. Somehow I see this as a metaphor for the entire mra movement.

nixscripter
nixscripter
7 years ago

To follow up on what Katz said: I think they are not inherently mysogynistic… but I think it’s pretty likely nowadays.

There was a great history (I think it was on XYOnline) which explained (new to me) how there was actually a REAL Men’s Rights Movement in the 1980s (in the US at least). Like the Feminists, there was a vocal group of men who wanted to break gender stereotypes about their gender that were harming them. Things like “be big and strong”, “don’t play with dolls”, “don’t show your emotions”, “if you’re young and don’t have sex every night in one nights stands, you’re not really virile”, etc.

But over the course of the next 15-20 years they, uh… “won”, for lack of a better word. Between changes in the law (e.g. Family and Medical Leave, additions to the VAWA that made it even more gender neutral) and cultural changes (reflected in the TV shows like Frasier and Cheers) the stereotypes softened. They are still with us, but bucking them is not nearly as big a deal as it was in the 1960s.

Which means now the people who flock to the moniker of Men’s Rights, who still thinking their “rights” are being infringed, are what the original movement would consider the fringe. They have taken the label for their own purposes (e.g. the legal right to abuse or trap their exes) which ARE inherently mysogynistic.

One of the things I smirk whenever I read is the claim that feminists now are “going too far”; the women have “won,” and now they are are starting to take rights away from men by continuing to push. Ironically, the way I see it, that’s one interpretation of what the current Men’s “Rights” Movement is, at its core.

ArchaeoHolmes
ArchaeoHolmes
7 years ago

The idea of “Men’s Rights” is inherently problematic. Civil rights groups assert the rights of the disempowered under hegemonic systems that oppress them. Feminism takes on the patriarchy, what hegemony is MRM taking on? Patriarchy is the solution to all their complaints, so they are really fighting for old oppressive systems to remain the same, not for progressive change. They’re reactionary. I think unless patriarchy is their target, they’re misogynists. If the villain can’t ever be masculine, it makes sense it is always women. Misogyny is quite culturally entrenched here in Australia.The MRM has given the usual suspects a peg to hang their bigotry on.

cloudiah
7 years ago

I’ve been staying away from AVfM, but I knew there was another event at U of Toronto and I figured they’d be losing their shit so I checked it out. In the comments on the thread about the event, I saw this one from Dean Esmay that nearly made my head explode:

[Racism] was actually arguably worse up north if you do some real reading on it. But a whole long post about that would derail the topic. There are even blacks who were around then who will say they had an easier time in the old south under Jim Crow laws than they did in areas with much more covert racism. In fact if you look into it, some of the loudest and angriest civil rights activists of the 1950s and 1960s, like Malcolm X, came out of Northern states like Michigan and New York and Massachussetts.

The South is an odd study in contradictions that people who haven’t lived it don’t quite understand. The racism was both more overt and sometimes less severe than elsewhere. Hard as that may be to wrap your head around it. Put it this way: the National Socialist White People’s Party was most active in places like Michigan and Illinois and so was the Klan in its heyday.

But hey you know we don’t have to fight about this, these are old old arguments and we aren’t gonna settle ‘em here. Maybe we should just move on eh?

Wut?

So 6 million African Americans moved out of the South during the 20th century because things were so great there? Is that kind of like how women organized a feminist movement because things were so great for us too? Or is that African Americans, like women, were just too stupid to see how great they had it?

0_o

cloudiah
7 years ago

I’m sorry, I’m just going to continue my rant for a second. I wrote my thesis on a woman whose family moved to LA from Florida in 1906 precisely to escape Jim Crow laws. She managed to become a well-respected professional in her field, but continually faced pressure from white folks to go back to the South to help “her people.” She pointed out that plenty of “her people” were right there in LA, and that her parents had left the South for a very good reason. She dated a man who was instrumental in overturning restrictive racial covenants (that kept blacks out of certain neighborhoods in LA), so she was well aware of the more “covert” forms that racism took outside the South.

What a stupid asshat Dean Esmay is. And isn’t he supposed to be the “liberal” one?

moreorlessdan
moreorlessdan
7 years ago

I have seen a crapton of racism denial, often in regards to the south. I once had a co-worker, upon learning I was studying history, start needling me to say that slavery wasn’t the cause of the civil war. he didn’t really care about history, he just wanted someone to tell him what he wanted to hear.

I have also seen a lot of people say “Well, there was a lot of racism up north, even more than in the youth” the same way you might hear a “men are victimized by abuse from women as often, or more than women are victimized.” both arguments are …. less than academically rigorous and are usually just a magic trick to make the . conversation disappear.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Hey, white USian dudes thinking of lecturing African Americans about racism? Seriously, don’t do that.

Although actually I guess Dean Esmay is safe there, since AVfM is OVERWHELMINGLY white.

katz
7 years ago

Ugh. That TV Tropes forum discussion I mentioned earlier? One of the major players on the MRA-ish side is making the claim that past oppression of women wasn’t oppression at all – no, men instinctively value women’s lives above their own, and things like not permitting women to have paid jobs just prove how noble and self-sacrificing men are, doing all the horrid work themselves so the ladies can be safe at home!

That wasn’t My God Its Full Of Stars, was it? Because it sounds like him.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Oh and David, here’s a citation for point #2:
The Independent and Joint Effects of Race/Ethnicity, Gender, and Age on Sentencing Outcomes in U.S. Federal Courts. Jill K. Doerner, Stephen Demuth. Justice Quarterly, Vol. 27, Iss. 1, 2010 (sorry for the weird formatting)

Using data compiled by the United States Sentencing Commission, we examine the independent and joint effects of race/ethnicity, gender, and age on sentencing decisions in U.S. federal courts. We find that Hispanics and blacks, males, and younger defendants receive harsher sentences than whites, females, and older defendants after controlling for important legal and contextual factors. When these effects are examined in combination, young Hispanic male defendants have the highest odds of incarceration and young black male defendants receive the longest sentences. The findings show considerable variation in the sentencing outcomes of defendants depending on their relative social‐structural position in society, and that particularly harsh punishments are focused disproportionately on the youngest Hispanic and black male defendants. Our results reinforce the idea that researchers need to consider the combined impact of multiple defendant statuses on sentencing outcomes because joint effects are considerably larger than the effects of any one defendant characteristic.

Kim
Kim
7 years ago

News from Brisbane: there was a gunman in the Queen street mall, who was fortunately taken into custody by police without him hurting anyone.

I don’t know if this bit is true yet, but they said on tv that he was there to see his ex-wife and “just wanted to see his kids”. He was already known to police too.

Though here they say it satarted as an argument between 3 men.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/03/08/12/36/gunman-in-brisbane-mall-reports

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

This hasn’t been addressed yet?

“…unless some kind of desexed hermaphrodite human is created, in which case we would likely cease to be human at all.” — kamilla1960

Before I start fuming, an point of academic note — hermaphroditus was born a boy, transformed into what ancient Greeks called androgynous, and had a penis and breasts. So “desexed” and “hermaphrodite” are opposing terms, all other *head explodes* everything else aside.

EVERYTHING ELSE!

1) hermaphrodite is a derogatory term for intersex individuals
2) desexed is a new one by me, I’ll assume you mean either people without gender or people without sex characteristics…
2a) people without gender — agender
2b) people without (or who want to be without) sex characteristics — neutrois
3) allowing people identifying as such, and seeking to be without sex charactistics, to have surgery/etc to remove their sex characteristics…would make us, the entire species, “cease to be human at all”

I don’t even…What. The. Fuck?

No really, what the actual fuck?

Guess I should give up complaining about how neon obvious my sex characteristics are and refrain from attempts at androgyny, because fuck, y’all still want to be human right?

Oh gods, LBT are you around? Sneak and Gigi broke humanity, we’re all aliens, or cybers, or something! (Sorry, we’ve reached the point where I have to joke or I’ll lose my shit)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I know a few people who’re not very strongly gendered and yet I still feel pretty human, and comfortably cis myself…maybe I turned into a bot and didn’t notice?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

On a less snarky note – kamila, this is not a community that’s kindly disposed to gender essentialism. We do not want to party like it’s 1975.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

I wrote my thesis on a woman whose family moved to LA from Florida in 1906 precisely to escape Jim Crow laws. She managed to become a well-respected professional in her field, but continually faced pressure from white folks to go back to the South to help “her people.” She pointed out that plenty of “her people” were right there in LA, and that her parents had left the South for a very good reason. She dated a man who was instrumental in overturning restrictive racial covenants (that kept blacks out of certain neighborhoods in LA), so she was well aware of the more “covert” forms that racism took outside the South.

That could almost word for word be the story of my bff’s grandmother and mother – they left Georgia (I think) for California, and her mother was seriously high in her field, and are they ever aware of how essential getting out of the South was.

joanimal
joanimal
7 years ago

@Argenti Aertheri

I am sorry you were hurt. I don’t know what was meant by that remark, but in defense of us mundanes, many of us have never knowingly met a trans person. Your posts have been enlightening for me and I have gone in search of answers regarding trans people on other websites. Nevertheless, this is the first time I have encountered the ideas of agender or neutrois. I value your comments on this blog and hope you can forgive those of us who would be your friend and yet still say stupid things in ignorance.

joanimal
joanimal
7 years ago

and in case it appears that I am asking you not to get mad at when I fuck-up (the probability of my fucking-up increases logrithmically with time) I am not.

Internet hug from an old bald bearded guy if you want it or my kitten if you prefer.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

joanimal — “I value your comments on this blog and hope you can forgive those of us who would be your friend and yet still say stupid things in ignorance.”

I try to avoid getting sweary at true ignorance, this isn’t in anyway to say that anyone else has to educate ignorant people, the derailing for dummies “educate me!!” is still derailing. But I’m okay explaining when it seems like something was said out of honest cluelessness, as opposed to willful ignorance. There’s just no excusable reason to have said that creating any gender/sex category would make us cease to be human.

Idk, there’s a difference between “um, you forgot about me/trans*/genderqueer people” and “did you just actually say that?” — the latter seems limited to “no one can actually think that isn’t offensive, right?” Like Cassandra said, we’re not partying like it’s 1975 (unless that means cheap readily available acid, in which case I’m in!)

This is getting long, so I’ll at least pet your kitty (nothing personal, I’m just not in a hugging mood, or a being touched mood)

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

If we get desexed and are no longer human, does that mean we’ve become kitties? Or dogs, if you prefer?

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Fish! A fair number are born female and become male either under certain conditions or after a certain timespan. And this is an appropriate use of the word hermaphroditism.

Barely related, my cories are having a small fit about the storm, they keep swimming to the surface and back down and it makes the weirdest little noise.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

I was reading an old thread today, where you mentioned your cories were pretending to be loaches and doing a loach dance! There was a lovely video of loaches dancing with it. 🙂

I was thinking of desexed as in what-vets-do but changing sex works too!

Abnoy
Abnoy
7 years ago

MRA is what happens when non-Alpha straight males finally realize that the mangina lifestyle is ultimately unsustainable.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

@cloudiah: I believe Esmay is the one who wrote “why I bring up the draft,” which argued… well, it didn’t exactly argue anything, but its thrust was that since women didn’t immediately demand to be drafted or take on some kind of other compulsory service after getting the vote, he gets to throw use the draft as an example of misandry or feminist hypocrisy or something. No idea how that chuckle duck is called liberal, but I guess he’s liberal relative to somebody.

HAHAHA my itouch autocorrected “chucklefuck” to “chuckle duck” and I am leaving it like that lololol.

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
7 years ago

It took me all of a cup of coffee and some bleary blinking to think of an answer.
“No, but…”

… I’m sure (as others above say) if you can’t pinpoint that there’s something wrong with the statements generally made after a while then our would be MRA is probably not too well off anyway.

I still think you can start from a perspective of “I’ve experienced people who happened to be male go through bad events, and I want to help them”. It’s a little vapid, perspective-wise, and it kind of assumes that ongoing social movements can offer nothing to an entire gender. So actually I think it’s not a case of misogyny being required or even inherent – I think its a case of mild narcissism, some solipsistic little half-thought and missed perspective. Privilege overshoot. So when someone says “Hey! Dude, consider the following about your privilege” what they hear is “You are bad-wrong and will always be bad-wrong and I hate you and all men must be shipped to the prison camps!” and flee to somewhere where at the very least no one will ever even consider that perspectives can be different and that people experience different things differently. Tautologies!

The cracked article actually helps underline that point. David Wong has a sort of kind of almost right idea? That some common narratives enforce a specific way of thinking and that that way of thinking when applied to reality causes misunderstandings. You don’t “get” a “hot girl” for “winning” because people aren’t objects. Then it drops the ball completely when it suddenly takes a sharp left turn into “And this, by the way!, is all about boners. And how we should totally pity people because boners. But but but boners. Because my mother told me to stop jumping off tall things we hate women.”

No, really.

“.. He can remember the first time he got in trouble for hitting somebody, for peeing in public, for trying to jump off some high object or set something on fire. All of the core male urges, all the suggestions whispered to us by Darth Penis, all of it gets us in trouble.

Did you ever watch old cartoons where a character is starving on a desert island, and when another character approaches, he’s so hungry that he imagines the other character as a talking piece of food?

Sure, at the upper levels, in the halls of political power, they have some complicated reasons for wanting some piece of land or access to some resource. But on the ground?

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women_p2.html#ixzz2MwTfx7wu

Yes. All the alpha male political heads have plans, but us poor drones just do it to get laid. Pity their boners.

See? David Wong seems like a decent writer. And Cracked is a funny website.

But those last two lines are two adjectives, a “Slutwhore” and a “feminazi” away from being a typical MRA talking point. In an article specifically meant to address the point about how this is all a bad thing and a cultural impetus and a social narrative and how men can do better.
So even when talking about things in the spirit of attempting to make the world a better place through enlightenment, some people just naturally fall into hackneyed idiocy.

And now, imagine someone bitter. Or angry. Or upset. Tadah. MRA-in-a-can.

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
7 years ago

… Actually, terrible thought re-reading that article. Point 5, about rewards. There’s a lot about how frustrating it is for a man to have to deal with that and how it makes men hate women. Broken social contract.

There’s nothing that I can read about how it’s a messy idea to implant, how to unthink it, *why* it’s wrong or even how people aren’t like that. It’s almost sort of saying “This is what we’re told. Not getting it is frustrating. You are being bad women for not helping us deal with this“.

It’s… really not misogyny. It’s just a weirdly insular perspective. And that goes double for anyone on the fence.

Sorry about the minor derail there. Happy 8th of March.

ArchaeoHolmes
ArchaeoHolmes
7 years ago

What is a really interesting question is why some men are predisposed to this point of view and others not. It isn’t all jilted blokes and divorced guys. And even it it was, it doesn’t explain why jilted and divorced women don’t amass forces to create male sexbots and write detailed plans of revenge online. My husband is the nicest, gentlest man in the world. His mum was seriously emotionally abusive and he had an abusive girlfriend too. She even tried to kill him. He has no hatred or bitterness towards women and loathes MRAs. He isn’t any pushover either, he’s a charismatic person. Chicks dig him. My brother, on the other hand, treats women like shit, chases girls half his age, fucks and dumps them, and complains about the unfair advantages feminism claims for women. My dad was a fearsome misogynist and male supremacist who favoured his son and treated me, my sisters, and my mum like idiots and housework-bots. My brother, who never had anything put in his way, is an MRA. My sisters and I are feminists, on the other hand. My dad is lucky to get a Chrissy card from me.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

“He can remember the first time he got in trouble for hitting somebody, for peeing in public, for trying to jump off some high object or set something on fire. All of the core male urges, all the suggestions whispered to us by Darth Penis, all of it gets us in trouble.”

Being a kid with no sense of self-preservation is a strictly Boy Thing? Being told not to do things never happens to girls? Being required to live within a society’s rules is only something that happens to boys? Being expected to grow up instead of staying a four-year-old is a hardship, and one only men face?

Funny how the Mighty Manly Man Brain MRAs love to boast about, the brain that invented All the Things and did everything, and that every man gets credit for … is completely overidden by a gland and some hormones. And carries lifelong resentment of Mummy telling it not to get itself hurt doing stupid things.

Sound of world’s smallest violin playing for the fuckwittery, inanity and complete narcissism of this one.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

So apparently according to David Wong I’m one urge to piss in public away from being a man?

(I was not a cautious child. I got told off for jumping off high things just for fun too. Since I don’t have a penis I’m fairly sure this wasn’t because my mother was trying to oppress it.)

ArchaeoHolmes
ArchaeoHolmes
7 years ago

Also, Happy IWD everyone!

melody
7 years ago

Things I did as a child: cross a fast moving river, jumped off the roof of my house, played in mud in my “nice clothes”, put cowpies in the fire, got in a fight with a boy, ect
Gosh. those sounds like stereotypical things BOYS do. I must be confused as to my gender.

I think this has more to do with them watching movies/tv shows that portray boys one way and girls another.

Because I had plenty of friends that were girls (and I had guy friends too) and they did all this stuff too.

deezers
7 years ago

Happy IWD boobz!

JTO has written a humdinger.. with this really weird disclaimer at the end…

Several paragraphs and statements within this article are, if taken out of the context of this article, clear calls for violence, including murder. A number of opponents of the MHRM have demonstrated a willingness and skill at repackaging selected quotes and framing a completely inverted meaning. Opposition to violence becomes a call for violence. You know who you are. Your work will be easy here. Go ahead. You betray yourself and your own desire for human damage every single fucking time.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that if you need to include a disclaimer like that, it may be worth going back over your words to change the murdery bits.

Also – men’s problems? Still feminist’s fault. Cool. Does anyone know what activism JTO is actually actively involved in IRL, aside from trying to FTSU?

Full article:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/why-yes-i-am-a-little-angry/

deezers
7 years ago

sorry for being O/T, I just read it and had to share… I will also share this, to balance the world again…

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/175742

Sideliner
Sideliner
7 years ago

Is there a succinct term for when you read something so long and awful that your whole brain shuts down and you wind up fixating on one small little thing because if you thought about all of it your brain might melt?

That’s what just happened to me with the JTO article deezers linked to.

Here’s what I can’t get past:

Warren Farrell, truly the Mr Rogers of the men’s rights movement…

Mr Rogers? Really? My childhood feels all sad now.

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

@katz

No, it was Besserwisser. I don’t know if you encountered him before you gave up on TVT…he seems to think that all sexism stems from an instinctive desire on the part of men to protect women from harm. He denies that women were historically viewed as property. For what it’s worth, he seems sincere in these beliefs – i.e. he’s not using them as excuses – and in the present day he has no problem with gender equality, but it’s pretty well impossible to talk solutions with someone who refuses to assign blame to the male-dominated power structure.