I found this hilarious faux-MRA rant on the Tweeter. I don’t know where exactly it’s from, but kudos to lordsteve, whoever he is.
My question today: Are MRAs inherently misogynistic?
I mean, obviously the people I write about regularly here are, but are there a significant number of MRAs out there who are actually well-meaning souls who’ve been taken in by MRA talking points? Or do you have to be a bit misogynistic to begin with in order to be swayed by MRA-logic?
I think if you’re nodding along at The Spearhead, you may have found yourself there via legitimate concern about, say, toxic masculinity, but the fact that you didn’t immediately run away to rock back and forth in a corner indicates that you’re have a fairly misogynistic worldview.
Ow ow ow ow ow ow ow. I’ve never given birth and I grimaced. Babies do not work that way!
(I know it’s a faux-mra rant, it still just stuck out to me.)
I’ll leave the debate up to people who are good at that stuff, but my gut reaction is yes, they are inherently misogynistic.
I don’t think everyone who approaches the MRM is inherently misogynistic. Certainly I notice a fair share of comments on r/mensrights along the lines of “Can we stop hating women for a minute and try to focus on helping men?” (Frequently followed by “Hating women is a vital part of my recover” + downvotes.)
But I do think you have to be misogynistic to stick around, or at least have a high tolerance for misogyny, which is kind of the same thing).
I think of it this way — if you call yourself a Men’s Rights Activist because you support men’s rights, but haven’t joined any MRA communities online, it’s possible that you’re not a misogynist.
If you’ve read a quorum of MRA writings and feel camaraderie with those people, chances are pretty high that you are.
I think you need to be misogynistic to be an MRA once you’ve seen what they’re about. Like others have said, if you’re not hitting the back button and having a think about the choices that lead you to The Spearhead or AVfM, you are a misogynist.
Seconding Nepenthe. I’d add that you have to be at least slightly more misogynistic than mainstream society to stick around past the first post (unless you are there to mock or stare in horror). Mainstream misogyny might cover a single post depending on what it was, but finding a second that doesn’t descend into appalling levels of misogyny is mathematically improbable.
I’m also gonna go out on a limb and say that unless you have moved into a K-Mart like in Where the Heart Is or are changing in the bathroom, you should not be naked in K-mart. It doesn’t matter what type of bits you have, you should keep your clothes on.
So, long story short, this guy was in Kmart taking off his clothes and the other shoppers there didn’t appreciate it and he got thrown out — misandry?
Some Gal: the K Mart thing is a joke. It’s not real.
@hellkell
Mine was supposed to be a joke, too. *goes off to work on better material*
I think a lot of guys wind up in the manosphere start off in the pua sphere.
People like to belong so I anticipate that many are just along for the ride. The pua’s say what guys like to hear. You can have tons of women surrounding you by being a jerk. The idea is so appealing they can’t say no to it. It’s a lie, but hope dies last. Once the ideas presented to the man from the pua sights fail him, he is so devastated by the overwhelming loss of ego he built up in respect of his anticipated success he turns toward aggression toward women in general. The more someone invests in something the less likely they are to abandon it, whether it’s a person, place or bad idea.
The men go to the manosphere in search of the success that the men in this sphere claim to have, but as the internet is a black veil, hiding failures and information from the men, they lose themselves in an endless sea of viral hatred.
For instance the average man on the internet appears to be 6’2 and make a 6 figure income. Really?
It’s unfortunate that the leading voices of the MRM are traditionalist asshats, because as you said in a previous post, there are legitimate causes against men worth examining and fixing. The thing is, the MRM is still relatively new. I mean, when feminism was where the MRM is today, they were using bombs and breaking down windows.
There’s a cluster of egalitarian Tumblrs that distance themselves from MRAs’ repugnant misogyny and stick to helping men. Maybe they’ll be the future of this movement.
I think it’s always possible that some MRAs are just misinformed, especially about what feminism generally is as a movement. And traditionally, I think you can consider yourself pro-Men’s Rights and not be misogynistic, depending on how you define “Men’s Rights,” especially as a movement.
For instance, one of my parents’ old college books, called “Men and Masculinity,” from the 70’s, is an anthology of accounts by men of gender roles, toxic masculinity, etc. The writing group identified with “men’s liberation,” but although there was one somewhat conventionally Men’s Rightsy piece (in that it was sort of whiney and woman-blamey), most of the essays expressed views that were actually in sync with feminism, focusing on eliminating gender inequality but working from the other direction (promoting a man’s right to not be in the “breadwinner” role, for example, and actually being allies to women). If the modern Men’s Rights movement were that, I don’t think I’d have a problem with them, and it would be far from misogynistic. The problem is that men’s liberation, if it’s even the same movement (and they might be two separate things, instead of the one becoming the other – I don’t know), seems to have devolved in a lot of ways into reactionary sexism and backlash. It seems dominated by the sort of people who would have dismissed the original men’s liberation movement as “manginas.”
My life experience, beginning with my family of origin and including the situation I am now contending with, shows me that misogyny runs deep. I believe that women will always be afraid of men, unless some kind of desexed hermaphrodite human is created, in which case we would likely cease to be human at all. But women’s fear of men is not the same as the deep need to despise and show contempt for women, than many men seem to be irresistably drawn towards. My elder brother, whom I have feared all my life, appeared to be hardly able to wait for the “father’s rights” groups to re-legitimize his atavistic attitude towards women. MRA. Well, they may be confused and misguided people, but in any case have not made the effort to understand what it might really mean to be a human being.
I remember when Robert Bly’s “Iron John” first came out. I felt relief and thought, at last men are being encouraged to talk about their feelings. The “men’s right’s movement” rapidly ensued, and it appeared that what these men were feeling was overwhelmingly anger at the perceived removal of their ‘right’ to degrade women.
@Marie: Take it from me, I watched my babies being born and it totally was all effortless, all we had to do was pay 100 vespene and wait 2 minutes. Y’all could totally zerg rush us, good thing everyone knows any two women can’t get along long enough to help each other rip men’s dicks off.
Totally sarcastic, just now.
Yes, they are. You can’t be an MRA without at least a heavy dollop of misogyny. Individuals concerned with social justice issues from the perspective of those who identify as male* need not apply, because all potential justice questions will be boiled down to “How are teh bitchez oppressing us today?” and there will be much rending of garments and gnashing of teeth and ultimately no productive activity whatsoever.
Also, I want to know which KMart this guy frequents, because I never ever EVER want to go in there.
Actually, this brings me to a question I was just having over lunch with a colleague. Women have feminism (and yes, feminism is good for men and children too, but part of the framing behind the term concerns equalizing historical biases inherent in the system to correct for discrimination against women), but if not MRA organizations (which some men are simply disgusted by while others are actively driven away) how else might social justice advocates who are interested in addressing some of the issues MRAs purport to be concerned with identify themselves if they want an overarching term rather than a niche one? “Masculinism” seems to be owned (and tainted) by people like Warren Farrell, so what exists for those who are uncomfortable with identifying themselves as feminists?
(and here I want to stipulate that their concerns may very well be feminist, but that trying to convince someone that they are a feminist when they don’t want to for whatever reason is going to be less than productive…)
BTW, that lordsteve faux MRA rant is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. I wish we could find the author and thank hir.
Also, a handful of MRAs are pooping on a NY Times thread about that police officer on trial for conspiring to kidnap and possibly cannibalize women, including his own wife. An interesting exchange starts here: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/nyregion/remember-misogyny-its-on-the-web.html?comments#permid=3
Elsewhere in the comments, the SCUM Manifesto is mentioned. Go zombie Solanas!
Wow, I had no idea I could just spawn my own dark army…I was going the hard way by talking to people and recruiting when I could have just been spawning them!
Wait wait wait, children are their own people…damn, foiled again!
The people responding are doing an excellent job of trashing that guy’s “logic.” Good show NYTimes commentariat!
@tcwill00
haha, I was confused for a minute until I saw the sarcasm thing XD
@marie: I’ve given birth, and it literally is the worst pain I’ve ever felt. Trying to spawn an army of war-children would be excruciating. Not to mention not worth it. Why would we spawn our own army when we can persuade men to go get blown up with our lady parts, which are rendered useless by childbirth anyways?
@cloudiah
I’m not sure I read the exact comment you are talking about. (My browser handles those things terribly or I don’t know how to work it.) However, I read a lot of them and not only found multiple references to Solanas, I also learned that a bunch of women responding calmly with rational arguments are hysterical. Hysteria, btw, proves misandry because reasons.
do you have to be a bit misogynistic to begin with in order to be swayed by MRA-logic?
think the word you’re looking for is “stupid”.
@crmsnfrn
ow ow ow ow *sympathy winces* For some unknown reason* the more I hear about childbirth the less I want to do it (and I’ve never wanted to do it much :p) Which works for me, because I think if I ever wanted to be a parent I’d rather adopt anyway. In no place to even think about that right now though.
*PAAAAIIIN!