My Man Boobz staycation continues. Here as promised is an interesting video.
I’d also like to take the opportunity, while I’m off, to as you all, dear Man Boobz readers, some questions that I’m really interested in seeing your answers to.
The first one: Are MRAs right about anything?
My answer to that is “no,” but there are some issues they bring up that a real, non-misogynistic men’s movement could focus on. These are:
1) Prison rape. A troubling new survey suggests that it’s far more common than previously thought, and that the number of people raped inside prison (overwhelmingly male) is by some estimates nearly as great as the number of people raped outside of prison (overwhelmingly female). (Trying to break down the numbers to make clean comparisons between prison rape and rape outside of prison is difficult; Stephanie Zvan digs into the numbers here.) Of course, MRAs don’t seem to want to do anything about the problem except use the issue of male rape to attack feminists. And of course if they focused on prison rape they would have to acknowledge that female prisoners are also raped, and that LGBT folks are much, much more likely to be raped than straight cis men.
2) Disparities in prison sentences between men and women. Even after controlling for assorted relevant variables, men tend to get longer prison sentences than women for the same crimes. (I don’t have a citation handy, alas.) This is not driven by feminism; female judges tend to be harsher on women than male judges. And of course there are gigantic racial disparities in sentences as well. MRAs again have done nothing about this except use it as an excuse to circle-jerk about evil women getting a “pussy pass.”
3) Domestic violence against men should be taken more seriously. Needless to say, though, most of what MRAs say about this issue is repugnant nonsense, and they have done nothing to actually help men, instead trying to get resources taken away from women.
Thoughts, on these or on any other issues MRA might be kind of, sort of “right” about?
@ellex
Well, alright, it is certainly about power, and with the trend of your comment I agree. But I think that the power isn’t just about personal power. I really think that it is fundamentally about sex, because the attacks of the MRAs are against women and seek to undermine the independence of women. Power cannot exist without there being someone over whom power can be exerted, so “power” is a relationship, not a thing that can exist all by itself.
The sense that men are being deprived of power because women are taking stronger positions in society would not exist if we were just human beings; but because we perceive ourselves as men and women there are problems.
One of the biggest problems is that many men feel deprived of a distinctive male role, and they would not feel this if women would all adopt the roles that these men would assign to them. And the biggest role is sex — not the only role, but the biggest, and the one which seems to preoccupy MRAs to a high degree. But then I take quite literally the sexual comments that they make. You might disagree with that, but if it were downplayed I would worry that something fundamental was being ignored.
@tedthefed, So sorry that happened to you, and that your experience was also subsequently dismissed in such a hurtful way by some feminists. Thank you for sharing that with us.
In response to drst:
No. I said the exact opposite of that when I said “no one should be forced to carry a baby against their will.”
This is false equivalence. What I said was that I don’t think anyone should be forced to parent against their will. That’s not the same as saying that consenting to sex is consenting to pregnancy, or that being forced to bear a child against your will is exactly like having to make payments. The two are apples and oranges.
You’re using a logical fallacy on me here called “Appeal to Ridicule,” where you attempt to mock (what you think is) my message with a sarcastic comment. I’m not going to mock you or insult you, and I hope if you reply you’ll extend me the same courtesy.
Let’s break this one down.
“Not your anecdotal examples but actual people.” My anecdotal examples are of actual people. I’d be happy to share the stories if you like.
“What about women who had a birth control failure?” That’s entirely different from someone deliberately trying to force an unwilling partner into having a child. Are you asking how do we tell the two apart? I guess that’s a big part of the problem. I didn’t say I had a solution to the issue, because unfortunately I don’t. That’s for wiser heads than me to figure out. What I said was that I think it’s a genuine issue, because it is. My anecdotal example who is an actual person really had his life fucked over by someone who deliberately got pregnant when she pointedly told him that she was on birth control and had no intention of getting pregnant. Should he have believed someone he only knew for two weeks? Probably not. Should he have taken his own precautions? I would have if I was him. Does he deserve the financial and social consequences imposed on him by a unilateral decision made without his knowledge or consent? Fuck to the no. It’s unfair, and men who complain about that do so rightly in my opinion.
“What about men who refuse to wear condoms?” It still doesn’t mean they should be forced to parent a child against their will. The “against their will” part is the main thrust of my argument. No one should be forced into such a heavy, life-changing commitment against their will. Male or female.
“Have you ever even heard of the phrase “reproductive coercion”? I’m guessing not.”
Yes, I’ve heard of it, and it’s fucked up. Lying about being on the pill, getting knocked up and forcing an unwilling man to be a father is also reproductive coercion. Which is wrong whether the coerced is male or female. No one should be forced into such a heavy, life-changing commitment against their will. Male or female.
Ah ha ha, the italics monster made me its bitch! And here I was so proud of myself for having mastered it.
Alas no.
I can really only echo most of what has already been said. I agree that despite some valid concerns, the biggest problem with men’s rights activism today is that advocates spend most of their time and effort justifying misogyny (and/or hatred of other groups) than actually helping men. That MRAs have mortally wounded their image and ruined their cause’s credibility is truly sad for the men who do fall through the cracks in our society. I consider myself a feminist and I would be totally fine with things like a rape crisis hotline for men, shelters for abused men, and homeless shelters for men– if to help men in crisis were truly the intent. That condition is critical, as I would be greatly opposed if the examples of MRAs featured on this blog were to run such services, with reason being that any dehumanzing, bitter asshole caught up in their own shit has no business counseling ANYONE. The blind would be leading the blind.
@Ghost Betty
Logical fallacy or purpose of the blog? You decide.
That being said, this
Never happens. No one is forced to parent against their will. They may choose to parent because they don’t want to be seen as an asshole, but that isn’t force. They may he forced to (maybe) financially support their own child, but no is is or can be forced to parent. Hell, the only reason my father spent any time with us was because his parents goaded him into it. He wasn’t forced to parent and he didn’t. (He didn’t really pay either. The only reason we weren’t broke growing up was SS when he died.)
I decide on logical fallacy, since the purpose of the blog is to mock misogyny. I wasn’t being misogynist.
This starts to get into quibbling about semantics. I believe social pressure (not being seen as an asshole) is a force—it’s a hell of a force. Just ask Amanda Todd.
WHAT. Not only is this analogy attempt a hell of a reach, it’s kind of disgusting that you would compare the suicide of a young girl to men not wanting to pay child support.
tedthefed – welcome, and I am so sorry that people were such utter douchebags and shit-heads about what you went through.
Ghost Betty – the false equivalence with person-who-gets-pregnant and person-who-impregnates being forced into parenthood is that the pregnant one’s bodily autonomy, long-term health, and actual survival are all involved, where the impregnating one’s are not. The stakes are far, far, higher for the person having to abort or give birth, and that’s before the likelihood of zir being the one left literally holding the baby and facing an utterly different future. Yes, I agree totally that forcing anyone into parenthood is wrong, but the two situations simply aren’t comparable.
@hellkell
It is worse than that. It is comparing being a parent (probably not a good one) to suicide.
I think it is bullshit that society even remotely expects men to step up and parent. Worst case, it expects that you marry and have as little to do with the kid as you like or it expects you to pay money.
Society expects very little of “fathers.”
@tedthefed
Welcome and I am so sorry that happened to you. Hopefully you will stick around and let us know if any of us get callous toward the emotions and experiences of the more privileged.
O think there are two kinds of power. One is the power to do things and express oneself. The other is the power to control other people. I think people often conflate these two kinds of power both because they can seem similar (a person who wants to make products needs people to help them) and because it gives people who want power over the plausible deniability of power to. For example, power over women to have sex on demand is expressed as power to have sex.
You’re right, that would be disgusting if that’s what I was going, but I’m not comparing the suicide of a young girl to men not wanting to pay child support. I’m positing that social pressure is an incredibly strong force, and Amanda Todd’s suicide is one of the most egregious examples of that fact. You could argue that she “chose” to end her life as a result of the pressure, but that’s the part I think is quibbling about semantics. I believe social pressure is much more force than choice, as witness Amanda Todd’s suicide. I stand by my choice of using her as an example of my point.
You’re right, the two situations aren’t comparable, and if that’s what you took from what I was saying I failed at making myself clear. What I meant with my comment “You could easily say “Yeah but he knew sex makes babies before he shtupped her” but the same could (and has been ad nauseam) said about women seeking an abortion,” was that it is unfair that people be forced into a negative reproductive situation when all they wanted was a lay. Male or female. I realize there are a whole slew of sociopolitical hot buttons around that particular statement, but I wasn’t addressing any of those, just pointing out the unfairness.
Nope. I hope I’ve made myself more clear with my last comment.
@Ghost Betty
By people who ignore bodily autonomy which is what you are doing by conflating the right of a pregnant person to decide what happens in their body with a penis-haver having “fathered” a child and going “now what.” No one has the right to sex free of consequences. Even if a concede that being a father can be forced, that isn’t comparable to decisions like abortion or carrying to term. And I don’t concede the point anyway.
Some Gal, I agree with you that society expects very little of fathers, which is one of the reasons I think it would be great if, in a perfect world, men were only fathers if they really wanted to be.
Ladies and gents, I have to run and do some meat space stuff, but it’s been a delight debating with you all and I look forward to reading the rebuttals next time I’m around. One of the reasons I delurked was because I consistently read great ideas and arguments on here, and I’m pleased to be able to take part. Cheers.
@Ghost Betty
Your clarification is no less appalling than the first time you said it. There is no comparison between bullying a child to death and expecting a person to do the bare minimum required to successfully raise a child. Which often requires a trip to Chuck E Cheese and some cash.
Wanna avoid social force? Don’t fuck, or fuck smart.
Ghost Betty, your example still reeks.
I know it’s semantic, but I actually really hate it when people say a woman “deliberately got pregnant”. Having a uterus does not mean you can get yourself pregnant on command. Women can deliberately increase their chances of getting pregnant, but they cannot guarantee a pregnancy.
I think it’s an important distinction because it reinforces the fact that pregnancy is, in the end, a biological process that NO ONE has total control over. If the pregnancy had been an STI, he wouldn’t have consented to that either, still could have happened. All any of us can do is mitigate risk and deal with consequences.
@Deoridhe
I missed this in the back-and-forth with Ghost Betty and I am sorry I did. I think it is a good point. The MRA conflate this power when it comes to children too. (Conservatives in general are big on conflating the power to teach children and hope they agree with the power to force conformity from children.) To the MRA, both women and children are things to express your power through as well. Not only is it important to have power over them, they must demonstrate that you have this power constantly.
@Deoridhe
Yes, there are quite big semantic problems. “Power” can also be understood as “ability”. One can have the ability to express oneself, in the sense that one is able to speak and say what one wants to say intelligibly. But although one may have the ability to talk sense, one may simultaneously not have the ability speak at all, because other people won’t let one even open one’s mouth. Two different kinds of ability are involved. Both have traditionally been called “powers”. One could use other words, like “talent” and “permission”, or “potential” and “authority”.
Compelling people to shut up and listen would certainly count as an ability, but it is what I meant (somewhere above) by “power”. This is the kind of ability that functions by interraction: by social consent or by individual surrender. MRAs can only have their male roles (as they see them) respected if society in general agrees to respect them, and this would mean compelling a lot of women to surrender their hard-won independence and submit to bullying and violence.
The bullying and violence are expressions of the man’s sense of his right to make all decisions and to smash any opposition. But it all flows from sex, because it is hard to compel a woman to have sex if she chooses to make her own decisions about it, and from this flows all objections to women making any decisions at all. It is for this reason that many men feel disempowered by the mere fact of an intelligent and articulate woman.
Sex means that a woman can be bought or sold and used as a counter in men’s games of social one-up-manship, so it affects even female children. It can also affect young men, because the system won’t work unless everyone is involved, but at least the young men know that they will be able to exercise patriarchal power in their turn.
MRAs don’t say much about it, but traditional attitudes towards child rearing are harmful to men (as well as to women). Although some men want nothing to do with young children, others receive the message, spoken or unspoken, that being involved with the care of babies and young children is not an appropriate role for a man. As a former stay at home dad, I definitely had to deal with people assuming that my kids would be happier if they were with their mother or that there must be something off about me wanting to stay home with my kids instead of working. Fortunately, none of these messages came from my wife, who didn’t mind the arrangement at all. In general, I’ve found that it was people with traditional attitudes towards gender rules who responded the most negatively to my role as primary caregiver. Feminists, by contrast were almost universally supportive.
RE: tedthefed
Fellow male rape survivor here, and welcome. Damn, I thought I’d heard it all, but the homophobia bullshit’s a new one on me! (Then again, I’m gay, so I guess people couldn’t really play that one on me.)
RE: GordonWillis
Nope, I’ve had atheists be just as big of asshats about me getting raped.
As per the discussions of the “it’s not your kid, drop it and ditch,” ideas… our parents kind of had that response when we came out multi. Like, as long as we didn’t demand recognition as individuals, they perceived us as ‘their child’ and would tolerate us, but once we put our foot down… well. Our mother described us as strangers in a house, and that she was only interested in having a relationship with HER child, which wasn’t us. (Yeah. That was a fun day for Sneak and Gigs, being forgotten by their own mother.)
They have gone all over the place (once we cut ties, they REALLY didn’t want us to leave, oddly) but the trust has been broken. So yeah, I have no trouble believing that a lot of people would just immediately up and “nope, screw you, kid, you’re on your own” to a kid they’d helped raise for years.
Late to the thread, but @ Gillian: I don’t know how many Terry Pratchett books I’ve read, but more than three…”a shitload” may be the technical term 🙂
It always bugs me that “Good Omens” is one of the only books of his that gets much buzz on places like Tumblr (and he co-wrote that one), because it’s a good book, but for me nothing of his can compare to the non-Rincewind “Discworld” books.