My Man Boobz staycation continues. Here as promised is an interesting video.
I’d also like to take the opportunity, while I’m off, to as you all, dear Man Boobz readers, some questions that I’m really interested in seeing your answers to.
The first one: Are MRAs right about anything?
My answer to that is “no,” but there are some issues they bring up that a real, non-misogynistic men’s movement could focus on. These are:
1) Prison rape. A troubling new survey suggests that it’s far more common than previously thought, and that the number of people raped inside prison (overwhelmingly male) is by some estimates nearly as great as the number of people raped outside of prison (overwhelmingly female). (Trying to break down the numbers to make clean comparisons between prison rape and rape outside of prison is difficult; Stephanie Zvan digs into the numbers here.) Of course, MRAs don’t seem to want to do anything about the problem except use the issue of male rape to attack feminists. And of course if they focused on prison rape they would have to acknowledge that female prisoners are also raped, and that LGBT folks are much, much more likely to be raped than straight cis men.
2) Disparities in prison sentences between men and women. Even after controlling for assorted relevant variables, men tend to get longer prison sentences than women for the same crimes. (I don’t have a citation handy, alas.) This is not driven by feminism; female judges tend to be harsher on women than male judges. And of course there are gigantic racial disparities in sentences as well. MRAs again have done nothing about this except use it as an excuse to circle-jerk about evil women getting a “pussy pass.”
3) Domestic violence against men should be taken more seriously. Needless to say, though, most of what MRAs say about this issue is repugnant nonsense, and they have done nothing to actually help men, instead trying to get resources taken away from women.
Thoughts, on these or on any other issues MRA might be kind of, sort of “right” about?
@xzaebos
Honestly, that is largely what I am talking about. That MRA sites that try to do advocacy often devolve into hate rambles.
Not that long ago there were some large flame wars going on at a different site. The MRAs wanted to start a flame war with trolling, then halfway through decided it was about advocacy. I was there. I will agree that there were some “feminists” that were directly doubting or harassing some people who identified as male victims of violence. However, most didn’t. I actually tried to get someone to stop, and they turned around and basically said I wasn’t really a Feminist because I thought ti was unproductive to insult a potential victim. (To this day I can’t tell if this person was a troll or a victim. their behavior was erratic and potentially disturbed..) There were actually a lot of feminists who were trying to offer support, only to get rebuffed.
And I really haven’t seen a lot of mocking of any victims tolerated here, with the caveat that I am new and only pop up now and then.
someone who you might find helpful would be:
http://ozyfrantz.com/
On a related note, not that long ago irl I had a male scottish feminist try to explain to me how American masculinity worked. Whenever I said something like X is often a symbol of masculinity in America he’d come back with “well, can’t masculinity really be defined in a lot of ways, so I really don’t think X is a sign of masculinity. Y is masculinty for me.” I understand what he was saying. I have studied social sciences a lot. Gender is socially constructed. Gender norms vary. It just got really annoying when the topic of discussion was the portrayal of masculinity in a given movie (an American Movie) and no one in the room (everyone else was Scottish) would believe me when I dissented. Everyone else was praising it for being a bold movie that questioned gender dynamics. I saw it as a very gendered movie because of the difference in cultural gender concepts. There are moments like this where I really wonder if really click with feminism.
moreorlessdan – feminism’s not a monolith, of course, so there will be lots of disagreement even in one locality, let alone between cultures.
And I’m having totally silly images about masculinity and kilts: yes or no? 😉 But it was pretty silly if he was saying he knew better than you did about a film from your culture and its meaning … gad, was he mansplaining?
Condescending, I should have said for that second “silly”.
@Kittens
Yeah, I saw that too. I have no urge to read it, and it’s pathetic.
and @ moreorlessdan
Yeah, me either. It’s not everywhere, but it does exist. I don’t mean to say I’m suspicious of feminists as a whole, but specifically feminists who decide to try and tackle male victimization. If it means anything, a lot of times when I hear or read these terrible things, it’s usually in response to a disruptive MRA, typically defending themselves for not talking about boys/men (Which I totally understand). So when I see an MRA bring up male victims in a derailing way, I brace myself, because the conversation is going to get really nasty.
Either way, I’ll happily identify with feminists every day of the week before I will with MRA’s
The movie was How to Train your Dragon. He literally didn’t believe that the large hyper-muscled male form is a symbol of masculinity (insert 80’s or 90’s action movie here), instead seeing it as something like the Father from Mary poppins (stern and emotionally restrained, but not physically strong). Also, the group was thrown off when I mentioned that the Scottish accent is a “masculine” accent in America. (Scotty, Bond, Scrooge McDuck) In the movie, the older and more traditionally minded generation that liked combat all sounded scottish, while it was the younger more open-minded generation that sounded American. While I love the movie, and do think it was trying in some way to challenge gender I just don’t see it as the same virtually gender-free movie that the others saw. Also, everyone gave Astrid a pass on taking a more supporting role near the end. Not a single person questioned that at all.
I would say the MRAs have no positive values whatsoever. If they appear to, it is entirely accidental when they grasp at things to try and lend themslves credibility.
First off, the rape victims who spoke up: kudos on your bravery and I am really sorry about your assaults and the subsequent abuse by unfeeling nitwits. I offer hugs from my kitten. She is a year old, long black hair, great big eyes, likes being hugged, and hugging her always makes me feel better.
I strongly disagree that the MRAs are about sex, for the same reasons as to why rape isn’t about sex but power.
The MRAa talk primarily of two things: their lesser power in relation to the alphas and their desire for power over women, often using rape. They are not about changing the society, they are about having someone to be better than, someone they have power over. Sex is the weapon, power is the motivation.
If this sounds familiar, it’s because its also one explanation as to why poor whites can be racist when they have more in common with poor blacks than they do with the powerful. It gives them someone to be better than.
xzaebos – that stinks, if someone fends off an MRA derail by diminishing male rape victims’ situation. Apart from the sheer wrongness of the thing itself, it’s letting MRAs dictate what a conversation should be about; they really are all “what about teh menz” in the sense of making sure women are never the focus, unless it’s one of their attacks, of course.
moreorlessdan – muscle men not images of hyper-masculinity? Whaaaat? I’m neither Scots nor American but it’s hard to see the Ahhnolds or Slys of the world as anything else. Father figures? Gakkkkk!
Interesting about the Scots accent, though, I’ve never thought of accents relating to gender roles. Plenty of other associations, but not that.
Joanimal – kitty pics! You need to provide kitty pics, sirrah!
joanimal — can I paste that last paragraph over on the thread that I’m three posts in a row into? It’s the answer to about half my headaches right now.
@moreorlessdan
That is definitely an interesting movie to talk about. I agree with you that the older hyper muscled men were meant to be symbols of traditional masculinity where men are valued only for their strength, and their point was to contrast it with a kid who didn’t meet expected gender roles. I’m not sure how anyone could not see that.
That’s interesting about the Scottish accent thing too. I’ve always seen the scottish accent used more to show a jokester type, similar to the irish, but I’m not american either, and those guys were definitely on the gruff side. Pushing the whole viking connection I guess.
Unrelated, but it bugs me when animated protagonists have really bland american accents too. The broad ocker accent that Hugh Jackman put on as the easter bunny was worse though.
@Argenti Aertheri
OK on the pasting. I didn’t invent that theory of racism and I don’t know where its from, but I have the impression it’s fairly old.
I really like how to train your dragon.
In the tv show the talk a bit about hyper masculine men. The episode where his dad has a painting done of them together and he is super muscular in the painting.
I hate in a lot of shows there is only one female character: often in a supporting role. Frustrating.
Interesting, it just posted my login name jrveregge instead of my “clever” name joanimal…weird
Hi Kitteh, I don’t own a camera.
I didn’t know there was a show. I might have to track it down if it is any good.
I hadn’t honestly really thought about the Scottish accent much, either. It was just one of those things where as I watched the movie i thought about every character I could think of from American media. Sean Connery had the whole 1960’s playboy thing. James Doohan, the Canadian, played Scotty in the show as a rugged blue collar worker. Scrooge McDuck is the embodiment of capitalism and competition. Highlander is all about the swordfights. It just kinda hit me at that point. I could not name a mainstream Scottish character from american Media that wasn’t associated with masculinity.
WordPress is always flipping names. Does it to me ‘cos I’ve different logins for this site and my blog and I’ve no idea how to make them the same.
Darn it! No kitty pics? ::gnashes teeth::
When I think of Scots accents I think of Hamish MacBeth – but that’s a Scottish show, of course. 🙂
Even Willie the Groundskeeper in the Simpsons is very masculin.
Ya, it changed my name sporadically too.Luckily they are fairly similar.
If the italics and blockquote monsters don’t get ya, the names monster will!
What did people who saw How To Train Your Dragon think of it, generally? I haven’t seen it, and only read the plot now.
I must say Toothless is kinda cute – almost like a kitty in some stills. That’s a plus. 🙂
I just flipped into looking for pictures of the Owl and the Pussycat and there are some adorable ones:
http://www.harpercollins.com/harperimages/isbn/large/9/9780060272289.jpg
http://theoraclespeaks.weebly.com/uploads/9/0/3/3/9033068/2662703_orig.png
http://mworthington.co.uk/jalbum/Mark/Comedy/Scanned%20Cards/slides/The%20Owl%20&%20the%20Pussycat.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-r83YVLEu838/TjGiQFRnKFI/AAAAAAAAJ6A/lr2b197Xtg8/s400/Owl%2Band%2Bthe%2BPussycat.jpg
although this one’s much less romantic …
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-r83YVLEu838/TjGiQFRnKFI/AAAAAAAAJ6A/lr2b197Xtg8/s400/Owl%2Band%2Bthe%2BPussycat.jpg
How to train your dragon is very cute. There are some issues with the main female character (she’s a bit of a cartoon cliche of what a strong girl looks like), so in that sense it’s not exactly groundbreaking, but overall it’s a good story that does try to undercut the idea of machismo being required for all men and boys. Plus the dragon really is very catlike.
I might pick it up if I see a DVD of it then. 🙂
I’ve just been reading the Pickup Artistry – Victorian Style thread from a couple of months back. That was one great thread!
It’s def an enjoyable story Kitteh, and I heard that they did actually base toothless’ movements on a cats. And it does have another moral to it which I won’t reveal because spoiler. The biggest flaw IMO besides what Cassandra said about the main female character was that it had the classic “hero gets the girl as his reward” trope.
Re: owl and pussycat. I don’t think I ever paid attention to the lyrics past the 5 pound note because I didn’t realise it was about inter-species sex.
Yeah, I felt like there was no need for that part of the ending. It would have worked better if they’d just ended up as friends. Since there had been no hint of romance earlier it felt like they tacked that part on just because, well, isn’t that how relationships between boys and girls always go?
(I wish we had a sarcasm font.)