My Man Boobz staycation continues. Here as promised is an interesting video.
I’d also like to take the opportunity, while I’m off, to as you all, dear Man Boobz readers, some questions that I’m really interested in seeing your answers to.
The first one: Are MRAs right about anything?
My answer to that is “no,” but there are some issues they bring up that a real, non-misogynistic men’s movement could focus on. These are:
1) Prison rape. A troubling new survey suggests that it’s far more common than previously thought, and that the number of people raped inside prison (overwhelmingly male) is by some estimates nearly as great as the number of people raped outside of prison (overwhelmingly female). (Trying to break down the numbers to make clean comparisons between prison rape and rape outside of prison is difficult; Stephanie Zvan digs into the numbers here.) Of course, MRAs don’t seem to want to do anything about the problem except use the issue of male rape to attack feminists. And of course if they focused on prison rape they would have to acknowledge that female prisoners are also raped, and that LGBT folks are much, much more likely to be raped than straight cis men.
2) Disparities in prison sentences between men and women. Even after controlling for assorted relevant variables, men tend to get longer prison sentences than women for the same crimes. (I don’t have a citation handy, alas.) This is not driven by feminism; female judges tend to be harsher on women than male judges. And of course there are gigantic racial disparities in sentences as well. MRAs again have done nothing about this except use it as an excuse to circle-jerk about evil women getting a “pussy pass.”
3) Domestic violence against men should be taken more seriously. Needless to say, though, most of what MRAs say about this issue is repugnant nonsense, and they have done nothing to actually help men, instead trying to get resources taken away from women.
Thoughts, on these or on any other issues MRA might be kind of, sort of “right” about?
@Argenti You guys have scented candles? I should have delurked ages ago! I LOVE scented candles….the smell like misandry!!!
@The Kitteh’s – I’ll admit it, I came for the mockery, I stay for the kittens. Or puppies. Or Bollywood. Sometimes I scroll through threads looking for nothing but the brain bleach links.
I do the same thing, Sideliner – I go through old threads when it’s quiet here, and find some gorgeous kitty vids worth recycling. 😀
Forgot to ask, have you looked at katz’s and cloudiah’s blogs, A Voice for Pierre and Artistry for Feminism. And Kittens, yet?
I looked at a few Voice for Pierre, but I’m still catching up on all the references…but Katz is very talented!
I’ll have to check out cloudiah’s…thank you!
Ya welcome!
Pierre has the cutest kitty – Poutine.
Can someone get on that Anti-Nice Guy Slenderman? I need him, stat!
@MKlein Strangely, now that I think about it, Good Omens is the only one I haven’t read, and I really love the work of Neil Gaiman too… Weird. On the other hand, it means I have a Pratchett book that I’ve not read yet, so now I’ve got that to look forward to.
@ellex24 I love Soul Music!! “We’re on a mission from Glod!”
A thousand times yes on the rape observations. I wonder if the attempt to minimize the fact of rape, a la Stepford Knife’s “they want to convince people that it was never a crime in the first place and is only on the books as part of a feminazi conspiracy to disempower teh menz.” is of a piece with the ‘omg so hilarious’ rape jokes and rape references that seem to be everywhere these days. Or maybe it’s just me (please, please tell me it’s just me) and I spend too much time around a non-representative share of absolute jerks.
Thanks for the plug, Kittehs’! 😉
Speaking as a parent who gave my son up for adoption…
When the papers are signed, all rights and responsibilities of being the parent are severed with the biological parent/s and then legally formalized with the newly adoptive parents. And the adoptive parents more often than not want it this way, because having a complete stranger having parental rights/responsibilities to your very new child is awkward. And the parents who adopted my son clearly demonstrated that they felt insecure and anxious that I depart as quickly as possible. And I understand why.
Adoption records have been sealed permanently, preventing grown children from locating or knowing anything about their biological parents. Even now, a child must wait until they are eighteen before they can view their own adoption file.
A parent paying child support does have rights and does have responsibilities, even if that parent never choses to excercise their rights or build and maintain a relationship with the child. I know a few men and one woman who complain bitterly about only visiting on weekends or how much they have to pay in support, only to find that when the kids are in their care the kids are ignored. Or that they could easily ask for more time from the primary caregiver, who would be happy to see the kids getting more time with the other parent.
As for people who just up and leave the kids one day, it comes in both genders. I can see a guy finding out that his kids aren’t his being angry and hurt enough to do it. Its not a choice I agree with, and I think that men in this situation need support and counselling, but strong emotions can spill over that way. Any women I’ve know to just run off, I think the main motivation was a long building resentment of the husband and kids.
Going way back into teh Pratchett, I really like Moving Pictures and Small Gods among the single-story books. Unseen Academicals and Monstrous Regiment were interesting but it’ll take a few more reads to decide if they rate with them (I think MR is the better of the two). I haven’t got into the YA Discworld stuff but I did enjoy The Amazing Maurice. I think Hogfather was the second Discworld book I read and I love all the Death ones. Unlike Susan I think it’d be really fun to have Death as a grandfather, even if he has no idea of things like how to make a swing. I mean, apart from anything else, kitties!
The Watch books are the ones I re-read most, though – read Thud three times in the space of a few months, and . Not that keen on Guards! Guards! but after that they just get better and better.
Yeah, that remark of mine about men abandoning kids once they find out there’s no biological link might have come off as a little callous. I definitely feel for them; they’ve been terribly wronged. But I do feel worse for the kids who are suddenly rejected by the only father they’ve ever known.
And of course women abandon kids too — I was really just talking about something that comes up on r/mr a lot, not trying to do a balanced examination of the phenomenon of parents abandoning kids. Which is in itself completely different from giving kids up for adoption, which isn’t abandoning kids so much as putting them into someone else’s care. If that makes sense.
Anyway, thanks for reminding me that this is all complicated, and I should be more careful in framing things. (Seriously, not sarcastically.)
Maybe I’m less representative than you are, but since I stopped playing WoW I can’t remember the last time I heard anyone make a rape joke or use the word rape outside of a serious context. I am lucky though in that I have a lot of control over who I interact with.
On page one, I left a comment answering what I thought was one of the main questions of the post — “What are MRAs right about?”
Male circumcision not-being-awesome is something I think they are correct about. Their framing is often awful–often anti-Semitic and/or misogynistic–and many seem bizarrely unable to understand that simply because two things are called ‘circumcision’ does not mean that they are anatomically analogous. But there’s still a core of correctness there: “Nonconsensually chopping bits off of male babies’ genitals is not okay.”
As others seem to have indicated there are a number of things that some MRAs believe which, when stripped of agendas and debate tactics and framing arguments and so on, at their core are correct. I certainly believe we should be doing a better job of addressing the needs of male rape victims, male child abuse victims, male domestic abuse victims, and so on. If men are not getting the care they need to deal with depression and suicide then–whatever the cause of that, which I expect is something that few MRAs and I would agree on–it’s something society should address.
I think the primary strides toward solving these issues is more feminism and less patriarchy, at which point what common points exist more or less dissolve, but still.
Anyway, someone didn’t seem to understand why I came in and made that remark, so that was it. I was answering what I saw as the post’s question.
Oh, hell. I try to comment as Mandolin on feminist blogs, but wordpress sign-ins, blah blah. Anyway, the comment above is me/Mandolin.
Mandolin, feminists have been trying to dismantle the harmful things that happen to men for DECADES. The problem is that these guys are actively doing their best to retain the old gender views.
How much do you really think can be changed for men if the “weaker sex”/ women are held up to so much hatred and brutality? Men are supposed to be strong and stoic and shit rolls off their back like nothing happened according to traditional views. If men are spposed to be bullet proof and these guys are constantly going on about how women are just whining, then how can feminists be of much help to men?
Ahh, alright. I kind of figured I just wasn’t thinking. That makes me feel a lot better. Thanks for helping me work through my ignorance 😛
WordPress has a fondness for changing sign ins!
Rachel, thanks for clarifying. Read on its own, your original comment (and the unfamiliar name) did look like the sort of derails MRA trolls do whenever FGM is mentioned. That the two are seriously not comparable never seems to bother them.
@Argenti Aertheri
Ok 🙂 Just seeing if I messed up. Though me posting so late at night probably didn’t help my understanding XD
And I’m posting while the family has a movie on now too. So….possibly more incoherents to come
Hello Sideliner! Have a welcome from me, too, though I’m still new here also. 🙂
Poutine the cat?!? That is AWESOME!!! (and zie’s super cute, too!!)
@The Kitteh
And yet the MRM scream that feminist think men are nothing better than animals…. And yet use the biology aspect to defend rapists actions.
@Mandolin
That happens to me sometimes. It signs me under a different name.
If I ever have a child (big if) I’d probably let the father make the call on circumcision. I don’t know enough about it to make that kind of judgement call as a parent. However, if the father wasn’t in the picture I probably wouldn’t circumcise.
@katz – in my experience Tumblr support is absolute shit. They will delete people’s accounts for causing trouble only in some ways. I know a lot of POC on Tumblr who’ve been harassed, threatened and stalked by people using all sorts of racist language and nothing has been done about it.
@Ghost Betty – um, what *you* did was false equivalence. Trying to flip it around and make that my fault is disingenuous. You said being forced to stay pregnant was the same thing as having to make child support payments:
Right there you say that being forced to “parent” (by which we all were talking about child support payments) against a man’s will is exactly the same as being forced to stay pregnant. You also conflated parenting with paying child support, which is dishonest, not “quibbling about semantics.”
Oh honey. That wasn’t an attempt at mock. That was outright mockery via sarcasm. I don’t need to resort to cutesy rhetorical tricks.
This, however:
Is an attempt by you to try and shame me and make yourself look more virtuous because on a blog that is dedicated to mocking misogyny, you’re not going to… mock.
Um, no it isn’t, not in the outcome. A woman who discovers that her birth control pills weren’t working properly is still going to end up pregnant and if she chooses to stay pregnant, the man will be on the hook for the child support legally even if he wasn’t expecting a baby to result, just the same as if she had lied to him. How it happened is not relevant if we’re talking about men being allowed to abandon all legal responsibility for the child.
You’re wrong. He had his chance to avoid the possible consequences. He didn’t take it. There is a child now who has needs, and rights. It’s completely acceptable for him to have to pay support for that child.
The only way to fix this, btw, is for the man to be able to force a woman to have an abortion because he doesn’t want to have to make support payments. If you’re for that, you really are not going to fit in here.
Men having to pay money every month is a “life-changing commitment”? Really? You’re STILL doing what you tried to blame on me. You’re still equating loss of bodily autonomy with paying money.
Also it’s not against the guy’s will. He could’ve used a condom, he could’ve not had sex, he could’ve gotten sterilized. If he hasn’t done those things, then no, he had his opportunity to exercise his bodily autonomy. Nobody has violated his rights.
True. But unless you can conjure up some hard numbers about which is more common, I’m going to focus on the documented problem of men abusing their partners by forcing them into pregnancy, not your anecdotal account.
And btw, using “bitch” as in “someone made me their bitch”? Is actually misogynist. Oops, your real motives are showing!
The social pressure thing… I can’t even. There is no, none, NOT ANY equivalence between the social pressure on women about virtually everything and the social pressure on men to pay child support. I pointed you to the stat about how little child support payments actually get made, and those are orders with the force of the law behind them. Social pressures about fatherhood are specific and not numerous. That you would equate social pressure that exists in the form of some sitcoms and commercials with something that drove (and continues to drive) young girls to kill themselves is reprehensible.
I would agree that there is a kernal of validity within some of the mra arguments. The problem is that the framing, tone, tactics, etc. are often entirely wrong. I have a fairly recent introduction to mras. I think a lot of the legitimate issues that they want to discuss are often not brought up as actual discussion but as a derailing or sidetracking technique. And if you don’t drop the conversation and agree completely, you will be cast as a heartless hypocritical villain. So the options are to let them control the conversation or have them jump up and down like a purple smurf calling you names for refusing to let them coopt the conversation. Really, i would place a lot of the blame for the actual issues not getting taken seriously squarely back on the mras themselves. They do not conduct themselves in a way that society will respond to,but it is much easier to blame women or feminists than have a moment of self-reflection.
Generally, I’m a soft spoken guy. I prefer to read silently and listen silently, though I can turn into a blabber mouth with face to face interactions. I am, however, outspoken about male victims of sexual violence. I guess I’m a MRA in the regard that I don’t appreciate how a lot of feminists completely fuck up when they do decide to talk about male victims.
I never expect a feminist to talk about male victims, because of obvious reasons, but I have heard some feminists say some really fucked up things about male victims. I mean REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY fucked up things. Like during a discussion between a bunch of people, and a woman I’ve known to be feminist and have had great discussions says, “Ya know, maybe a woman molesting a boy isn’t as bad. At least he’ll understand.” kinda fucked up. Now everyone from every ‘group’ of people say some shit like that, but at least I expect it from them. I didn’t think a feminist could say it, but some do.
So, in that regard, I understand why a lot of male victims are suspicious with feminists. I am to when it comes to a topic about male victims.
MRA’s don’t say fucked up shit -about *male* victims- but they are completely fucking useless. They bait me with the chance of having a real discussion about male victims then switch to “Women r evil!” I can’t express how annoying it is to skip entire paragraphs because of anti-feminist rants.
Er, I guess I’m off topic. So other than male victims who are suspicious of feminists, I’d say NOPE.jpeg
Does he deserve the financial and social consequences imposed on him by a unilateral decision made without his knowledge or consent? Fuck to the no. It’s unfair, and men who complain about that do so rightly in my opinion.
I agree with you that it’s unfair, however even in this case society believes that the right of the child is the priority. For him to refuse to do his duty and make his payments to that child would be him taking it out on the wrong person.
FYI, I just found recounting of a case that’s a whole lot worse than contraceptive fraud, but highlights how immovable the duty of the parent to the child in law is. From Lewis (2012; unpublished?):
Trigger warning: rape
@melody – “And yet the MRM scream that feminist think men are nothing better than animals…. And yet use the biology aspect to defend rapists actions. ”
Precisely. Whatever we do or say, women are wrong and to be blamed and punished. It doesn’t matter if it’s a flat contradiction of something they wrote two sentences earlier.
xzaebos, anyone belittling or dismissing the seriousness of rape – any rape, of anyone – is seriously fucked up, and if you’d read this site any length of time you’d see that stressed repeatedly. But more to the point, if you really think MRAs are supportive of male rape victims, I strongly suggest you read this piece David posted last year, quoting from an article in The Spearhead. Their attitude is that boys are harmed when women teachers don’t rape them, because they don’t believe women can rape men at all, and they see it as unfair discrimination against the boys who aren’t “getting some.”