My Man Boobz staycation continues. Here as promised is an interesting video.
I’d also like to take the opportunity, while I’m off, to as you all, dear Man Boobz readers, some questions that I’m really interested in seeing your answers to.
The first one: Are MRAs right about anything?
My answer to that is “no,” but there are some issues they bring up that a real, non-misogynistic men’s movement could focus on. These are:
1) Prison rape. A troubling new survey suggests that it’s far more common than previously thought, and that the number of people raped inside prison (overwhelmingly male) is by some estimates nearly as great as the number of people raped outside of prison (overwhelmingly female). (Trying to break down the numbers to make clean comparisons between prison rape and rape outside of prison is difficult; Stephanie Zvan digs into the numbers here.) Of course, MRAs don’t seem to want to do anything about the problem except use the issue of male rape to attack feminists. And of course if they focused on prison rape they would have to acknowledge that female prisoners are also raped, and that LGBT folks are much, much more likely to be raped than straight cis men.
2) Disparities in prison sentences between men and women. Even after controlling for assorted relevant variables, men tend to get longer prison sentences than women for the same crimes. (I don’t have a citation handy, alas.) This is not driven by feminism; female judges tend to be harsher on women than male judges. And of course there are gigantic racial disparities in sentences as well. MRAs again have done nothing about this except use it as an excuse to circle-jerk about evil women getting a “pussy pass.”
3) Domestic violence against men should be taken more seriously. Needless to say, though, most of what MRAs say about this issue is repugnant nonsense, and they have done nothing to actually help men, instead trying to get resources taken away from women.
Thoughts, on these or on any other issues MRA might be kind of, sort of “right” about?
Or not, in the case of our MRA trolls! 😉
@Sideliner
Are you new? If so, welcome and if not, I am very sorry. Your name seems cool enough that I think I would have remembered it, but my memory is a little fuzzier than usual today and I have to keep going back and re-reading things. So, apologies if I briefly blanked on who you are.
This is a really good point. Most uterus-bearers (and penis-havers for that matter) don’t even know whether or not they are fertile unless they have already tried and failed to become pregnant or have had some health problem that affected fertility. So, while there are things a uterus-bearer can do to increase the odds that they will conceive (time of the month, no birth control), they are just guessing most if the time that a pregnancy can result.
A friend of a friend has had a lot of trouble conceiving and was basically told that she couldn’t, but then her doctors finally discovered that she has a medical condition that can be treated and that, once treated, might allow her to conceive. I don’t think her case is that unique and she never would have been aware of any problems if she hadn’t repeatedly tried and failed to conceive. Conception, implantation, and all the other steps of pregnancy aren’t ever assured. It isn’t like following a recipe.
@ ellex24 – in response to your suggestion to Gillian:
Anti-Nice GuyTM Slenderman. Slenderman is recast as a force of retribution bent on protecting the world from Nice GuysTM. Someone who knows how to make memes from scratch (with your own template), please do this if you’re interested.
Sorry I’m responding so late to all this and probably derailing shit.
@tedthefed – I’m so sorry such awful things have happened to you, and that people who should have been supportive were not. I hope you’ll find that this is a very supportive and friendly place.
@GordonWillis – I think you’re saying that the power issues are derived from the sex issues? I still disagree – I think it all goes back to power, and the sex (misogyny) issues flow from power issues. Lack of power is the forest – sex comprises many of the trees within the forest, and while we need to not lose sight of the forest for the trees, you are right that we need to not lose sight of the trees in the attempt to see the forest.
Okay, that metaphor got a little out of hand, and I heartily apologise to anyone who remembers it next time they watch or read Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. No, I will not write Ent tentacle porn. At least, not today.
@MKlein – I think it would be accurate to say that Pratchett has written a shitload of books. They certainly take up an entire shelf in my library. I think “Moving Pictures” is often underrated among the Discworld books. I also like “Soul Music” and “Pyramids” a lot. But really, I love them all.
Sorry to butt in, but while I suspect Ghost Betty is coming from a bad place on all this (and, not to nitpick, but the whole “made me its bitch” comment didn’t really assuage that suspicion…), I think there may be a discussion to be had here. Namely, should parents who give a child up for adoption be required to pay child support? My gut says no, that the two aren’t equivalent, but I’m unable to articulate exactly *why*. Any help? I’d like to have a defense handy should I ever encounter this argument.
@MKlein- Anti-Nice Guy Slenderman…I’ll have to think about that for a bit. But if anyone else (with more ability than myself at creating memes, as in any ability at all) who is interested should definitely take a stab (tentacle?) at it.
I put a Slenderman picture as the background on my monitor at work. My co-workers are convinced it moves. They don’t know that I have several ever-so-slightly different pictures and I rotate them.
I’m so bad. I’m definitely going to hell, it’s where all the really interesting people are.
I think “the demonization of male sexuality” may have some validity as I know some very nice non-MRA men who have experienced this. Some examples from among my male friends: two wanted to take up yoga but felt they couldn’t join a class because “two blokes in a class of women might seem a bit creepy”; a few have admitted they’re cautious about chatting up women in case they’re seen as “a bit rapey”; a male friend of mine was at a festival when a young child lobbed a frisbee in our direction- he handed it back with a “here you go” and when the mother gave an “isn’t that nice and cute”-smile he said “that’s what I love about this place- a man can be friendly towards a child without being branded a paedophile”…
…so yes, men do have a genuine problem here. The problem with MRAs is that they blame women for creating that problem and refuse to consider that they may have given women good reason to fear them. Some examples: they complain that it’s not fair for women to see all men as potential rapists while at the same time telling us that we need to do more to avoid “getting raped” (one thing that might help us here is… treating all men as potential rapists); They do nothing to condemn the minority of men who rape and give them a bad name, instead making apologies for them; they do nothing to convince us that the vast majority of men are decent chaps who actually like and respect women (which I believe they really are); they bang on about “paedohysteria” while defending “creepshot” sites and their “right” to leer at underage girls whose photos were posted up without their consent…
Overall their message here seems to be “there’s no need to fear us, you fucking bitches”.
@Sid
Three possible answers (well, more like one and two half answers):
1) The purpose of child support is to meet the needs of the child and adoption meets the needs of the child. So, it would be redundant. (Yes, more money is always nice, but support is about need. This is, as most things are, imperfect anyway.)
2) It would prevent closed adoptions and possibly thin the pool of potential adoptive parents. The former may or may not be good. The latter is very bad.
3) It would discourage people from putting children up for adoption. (This may or may not be a bad thing. It would increase the abortion rate slightly, I would guess. This also may or may not be a bad thing).
I think it is good that adoption is distinct from a custody arrangement, but would be interested in arguments against it.
@Ghost Betty
I do agree with you that it’s unfair. I think is what you’re trying to say, yes? That you would like things to be fair for everyone. And the way things are set up now it’s just not and societal pressure can make people do things they don’t want to do and that’s not fair either.
I was trying to say something similar, but not being able to put it into words and then Karalora wrote this:
Which is exactly what I was meaning. Life isn’t fair and life will never be fair, but it’s good to try to make things more fair. But doing what MRAs do – trying to make it fair for themselves at the expense of making it less fair for everyone else – is not ethical.
^^^ and of course they don’t acknowledge that female sexuality is demonized to an even greater extent, or that this is exactly what slut-shaming is. They claim rape accusations are false because “really the woman just woke up and felt like a slut”, but do they ever consider who is giving women reason to feel ashamed?
This could be another example of MRAs wanting to achieve equality by taking away a female privilege rather than giving it to men as well: male sexuality is demonized, let’s demonize female sexuality too!” If people stopped demonizing both male AND female sexuality we’d all be a lot happier.
@The Stepford Knife – I think it’s even uglier and more extreme than that. I think a lot of MRAs won’t be happy until rape is not even on the books as a crime. The very idea of women having the right to say NO sends them into a frothing rage. I’m inclined to agree with Gordon Willis on this: they want power over women in every aspect of our lives, but sex seems to be at the core of this.
And yes, I totally agree that female sexuality is demonised far more than male. We are at once blamed for saying no and blamed for saying yes. Men may be mocked for saying no to someone conventionally attractive, but they are not slut-shamed – just the opposite.
@Sid,
A parent who puts their child up for adoption gives up their parental rights, and thus their parental responsibilities to support the child. Losing custody is not the same thing as losing parental rights. Non-custodial parents still retain rights under the law, including the right to petition for custody and to be involved in the child’s life unless the court finds it to be against the child’s best interest; they also retain the responsibility to financially support the child to the best of their ability. Parents who have had their rights terminated retain no such rights. This is my understanding, at any rate.
@Some Gal
You’re not blanking on anything, I’m new! I’ll admit I’ve been lurking for a while though…so hi!
Anyway, I just think to refer to a woman getting pregnant as though it was on demand subtly implies that women have a magic scary biology power that they can wield at will just to hurt men…and I hardly think the world needs more beliefs that encourage that line of thinking.
I’m happy your friend has some hope btw….fertility problems can be so stressful.
Welcome, Sideliner! 🙂
Brilliant.
ellex24 — “@Argenti – I need to know what episode of Criminal Minds involved Reid getting mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Seriously. I NEED to know that.”
One of the ones with Henkel…Revelations, season 2 episode 15. In practice though, it’s more “omgs Reid!” than it is hot. And it’s part two, so watch episode 14 first 🙂
Marie — you didn’t mess up my pronouns that I saw, it was relevant, and I was drunk, so I mentioned it! And really, I’m amenable to any pronouns as long as it isn’t case of “I assume your gender and you are wrong because you are that gender” (that’s when I just start playing Spot That Fallacy!)
Sid —
“Namely, should parents who give a child up for adoption be required to pay child support? My gut says no, that the two aren’t equivalent, but I’m unable to articulate exactly *why*. Any help? I’d like to have a defense handy should I ever encounter this argument.”
No, because! Giving a child up for adoption means severing all parents rights and responsibilities. The assumption being that the state, foster care system, adoptive parents, what have you, will then care of and raise the child. And that includes the financial aspects.
Also, adoptive and foster parents make the choice to adopt/foster. With that comes all the rights and responsibilities of parenting.
Anyways, the cases were a kid is given up for adoption because the parent(s) can’t afford it? The whole point is to increase the kid’s standard of living by being adopted by a better situated family.
tedthefed — that is just fucking fucked up, I’m sorry, on multiple levels (including the adding insult to injury with the bull about homophobia…who the fuck…)
Kitteh’s- I’m convinced they refuse to condemn rapists because they refuse to believe that male-on-female rape actually happens, and that 100% of reports are false. They can explain away any case- “it was consensual”, “she’s lying- crying rape out of shame”, “she led him on”, “she had rape fantasies and liked it really” etc. They want more than the decriminalisation of rape, they want to convince people that it was never a crime in the first place and is only on the books as part of a feminazi conspiracy to disempower teh menz.
Of course this is another thing which hurts men too- male rape victims get “he’s crying rape because he’s ashamed of being seen as gay”, “he was a big strong man and could have fought him off so he must have wanted it” and the double stigma of being a slut-shamed man- shamed for having sex as the receptive (or “passive”) partner with the derogatory implication that this makes him more like a woman. MRAs do occasionally mention prison rape but don’t do anything about it- in fact all of their victim-blaming and slut-shaming aimed at women may be preventing men from speaking out and reporting their rapes.
Going off on a bit of a tangent there… but I’ve been struggling to think of anything the MRAs are actually right about and the whole demonization issue was the best I could do. I do think it’s a real “thing” but while most decent chaps take some responsibility and blame the genuinely rapey minority of their gender, MRAs blame women. Like all other MRA issues then…
RE: Argenti
including the adding insult to injury with the bull about homophobia…who the fuck…)
With some thought, it’s not actually that surprising. Hell, I seem to have encountered plenty of, “you would’ve been totally fine with my rape except you think my kink is not okay” bullshit, so it only makes sense that some folks would use it for homophobic crap too.
Hi @the kittehs! *waves hands furiously, happy to delurk*
I found something awesome:
LBT — intellectually I get it, in practice I want a clue-by-4
Because hell, even if you didn’t want to participate in the sex act in question, the moment you’re forced to, it’s rape. Eg maybe you’re a man who doesn’t want to have sex with men specifically because you find the idea repulsive — doesn’t matter if you’re attracted to men, doesn’t matter if you’re a royal asshole about screaming your homophobia from the rooftops — forcing it is rape, and anyone with two brain cells knocking together can grasp that rape is a Bad Thing and that being upset/hurt/traumatized/whatever are normal reactions!
Am I being clear? I’m not trying to imply that either you, tedthefed, or anyone else, are anti-kink, homophobic, whatever. Just that even if you are you still have the right to react to being raped without being told you’re only upset because of your biases.
Fuck, that’s bordering on the MRA “incest is only bad because the victim is told it’s bad” — in both cases the claim is that you’d not be upset by sexual assault if you hadn’t been conditioned to hate an aspect that isn’t being fucking assaulted.
Um, this is long and crispy, St. Patrick’s is rapist ex #1 and I’m very crisp. Basically, oh I get it, I just want to take my anger out on any asshole stupid enough to actually say it.
Ooooh, a newb! Have you been given your complimentary hard chair, matching towel set and SCENTED MOTHERFUCKING CANDLES?
They’ll be delivered shortly by female penguins, little whores that they are!
@Sideliner ::waving back:: 😀 Here is your cute welcoming kitten!
@The Stepford Knife – yeah, that’s the sort of thing I’m getting at.
TRIGGER WARNING for horrible MRA attitudes to rape:
It seems to me that they don’t see rape as a crime but as the natural manly man way of sex; sex is about a man getting his orgasm however he wants, and if it hurts and traumatises someone else, that’s either tough luck, a bonus, or the whole point of the exercise. It seems to baffle them that a) most people don’t see it that way and b) it’s a criminal offence. I do not believe them, ever, when they whine about wanting to luuuurve women. It’s patently obvious they hate us most of all among all the people they hate for not being identical to them.
Internet hugs if you want ’em, Argenti, and yes, that was very clear. Rape is traumatic, it doesn’t matter what the act is or what the victim’s feelings about it in a consensual context are: it is rape, end of story.