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A kitten, and a question: Are MRAs right about anything?

My Man Boobz staycation continues. Here as promised is an interesting video.

I’d also like to take the opportunity, while I’m off, to as you all, dear Man Boobz readers, some questions that I’m really interested in seeing your answers to.

The first one: Are MRAs right about anything?

My answer to that is “no,” but there are some issues they bring up that a real, non-misogynistic men’s movement could focus on. These are:

1) Prison rape. A troubling new survey suggests that it’s far more common than previously thought, and that the number of people raped inside prison (overwhelmingly male) is by some estimates nearly as great as the number of people raped outside of prison (overwhelmingly female). (Trying to break down the numbers to make clean comparisons between prison rape and rape outside of prison is difficult; Stephanie Zvan digs into the numbers here.) Of course, MRAs don’t seem to want to do anything about the problem except use the issue of male rape to attack feminists. And of course if they focused on prison rape they would have to acknowledge that female prisoners are also raped, and that LGBT folks are much, much more likely to be raped than straight cis men.

2) Disparities in prison sentences between men and women. Even after controlling for assorted relevant variables, men tend to get longer prison sentences than women for the same crimes. (I don’t have a citation handy, alas.)  This is not driven by feminism; female judges tend to be harsher on women than male judges. And of course there are gigantic racial disparities in sentences as well. MRAs again have done nothing about this except use it as an excuse to circle-jerk about evil women getting a “pussy pass.”

3) Domestic violence against men should be taken more seriously. Needless to say, though, most of what MRAs say about this issue is repugnant nonsense, and they have done nothing to actually help men, instead trying to get resources taken away from women.

Thoughts, on these or on any other issues MRA might be kind of, sort of “right” about?

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cherabushka
7 years ago

they are right that domestic violence and sexual assault against men are trivialized to the point where tons of people see these issues as nothing but a big joke. otherwise, i can’t think of anything.

Freemage
Freemage
7 years ago

I hate in a lot of shows there is only one female character: often in a supporting role. Frustrating.

Melody, are you familiar with the Bechdel Test? It’s a lovely tool for evaluating if a movie meets even a baseline of reasonable portrayals of women:

Two female characters must have a conversation for several minutes that is not about a man.

What’s appalling is just how often modern movies fail this test (and meanwhile, so-called “chick flicks” usually fail as well, because the women are often focused entirely on the menz).

Not every movie needs to pass this test to be good, but it would be a better movie landscape if more of them did.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Freemage

Isn’t it depressing when hoping for at least half of movies to pass seems unrealistic?

ellex24
7 years ago

Taking a little break at work…

Here’s a clip from “How to Train Your Dragon” with Hiccup’s dad, all muscly muscled (voiced by Gerard Butler, who was also all muscly muscled in “300”):

And here’s a clip from “Mary Poppins” with David Tomlinson as Mr Banks:

I’m really not seeing the similarities.

Yes, Kittehs’, you should see “How to Train Your Dragon”. It’s adorable, and you’ll want a Toothless of your own.

howardbann1ster
7 years ago

Yes, Kittehs’, you should see “How to Train Your Dragon”. It’s adorable, and you’ll want a Toothless of your own.

Loved it. Even the weird kid-friendly Vikings.

Gillian
Gillian
7 years ago

Back to the Pratchett, I was reading a bit more Going Postal last night before bed and I came across Miss Dearheart dealing with a “Currently Friendly Drunk” with style (and stilettos).

Falconer
7 years ago

The broad ocker accent that Hugh Jackman put on as the easter bunny was worse though.

Eh, the director probably said, “Can you, y’know, Vegemite it up a bit?”

I dunno why the Easter Bunny is Australian. The only association I have of Australia and rabbits is Threatening Imported Species, which is not at all positive.

Ashley
7 years ago

JudgyBitch: “Not much a surprise, really. It’s what men tend to do. Win”

Right after talking about how men lose hard fought custody battles. Fail. So hard.

ellex24
7 years ago

Re: Pratchett. I took a look at my library last night, and Reaper Man shows the most wear and tear. I love the stuff about the shopping mall entity. And I always love how Death feels about cats.

howardbann1ster
7 years ago

@Gillian: I just watched the BBC miniseries for Going Postal. So, so good. Their Miss Dearheart took the cherished one I had in my head and just plain out-awesomed her.

howardbann1ster
7 years ago

PS: Kitteh, that one features golems heavily as well.

moreorlessdan
moreorlessdan
7 years ago

My hunch is that the person who didn’t see the muscular bodies of the older men in HTTYD was using a very British concept of masculinity – very concercend with being a proper.Man and trying to teach discipline.You know, the “Stiff upper lip” trope. At least that was my take on it. I’ll admit that my grasp of the culture is as much trial and error as anything else.

And yes, toothless is basically dragon + cat.

d’oh. Grounds keeper willie. I keep forgetting him. how many times have they had him rip off his clothing and be oddly ripped. I do not know the root of this in American culture, but it really seems to be a trend.

Part of the conversation was how while the movie fails the Bechdel test, it still tries to question masculinity. Mostly I think it does a good job, With the big point of contention I have was how Astrid’s role went from unique to cliche fairly quickly once a romance got introduced. But there are movies that do a lot worse and it is still really enjoyable.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Good, I’ll look out for the film, then! Don’t worry about spoilers, I’ve read the synopsis and I’m of the reads-the-last-page-first mindset anyway. 😉

drst
drst
7 years ago

“How To Train Your Dragon” = my favorite movie.

Even with it’s flaws, I love it. Any time I get depressed, I’ll pull it out to watch to comfort myself.

ellex24
7 years ago

Kittehs’, if you can, make sure you watch the short “How to Train Your Dragon” sequel, “Gift of the Night Fury” as well.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Ta for the tip! 🙂

katz
7 years ago

I hadn’t thought about the masculism aspect of the Scottish accents; that’s a good point. I’d mainly thought it was just another case of an animated movie that isn’t set in America where the main characters nevertheless sound American and only the supporting cast has accents (eg, Aladdin, Ratatouille).

Kitteh, I’ll see your Link cat and raise you a Samus cat.

pecunium
7 years ago

hellkell: I don’t think they’re ever going to be more than an internet pest.

I worry. Not about, “the movement”, but about small groups/individuals, who manage to figure out how to get the superficial aspects of the problem considered, and then get themselves appointed the people to work on drafting the solutions.

There are a few who managed that in Massachussets, though I’ve lost the links. The state was looking to reform some aspects of DV/custody and there were no, “feminists” on the committee, but there were some MRA, which affected (for the worse) the resultant legislation.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Perfect spherical cat! 😀

Well, a pox on our shops. Tried Target, JB HiFi, Minotaur and the DVD Collection and NONE of ’em had How To Train Your Dragon. Every other flippin’ Disney film evah but not that one.

Looks like it’ll be another job for the internet.

melody
7 years ago

@freemage
I am familiar because I watch feministfrequency (have you watched it? If not check it out on youtube).
The problem is many male dominated films pass (when applied to men) while female films do not.

@moreorlessdan
Romance novels also paint scots as super fit men. How many Scottish highlander romance novels are there? More than I can count for certain.

I think Riders of Berk passes the test, but only on some episodes.

katz
7 years ago

How many Scottish highlander romance novels are there?

Not to mention the time-traveling Viking Navy SEAL romance novels.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

THAT GUY HAS A MULLET

::hurl::

xiaobaobao
xiaobaobao
7 years ago

Those are just minor issues MRAs use to play the victimhood complex, probably because liberals care so much about victims.

No, the real fight is against feminism. One does not need to plug for male rights or grab sympathy to fight it. All we need is to witness what feminism does to civilization. A continued softening of competitiveness, aggression, and the desire to contest supremacy for your tribe, race, and nation. Every feminist argument ends up being about their feelings. Compassion, empathy, and other inconsequential obstacles to serious geopolitical goals.

That, is the reason why feminism and its adherents need to be crushed around the globe.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

What a stupid troll you are.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Oh, and a cowardly one, Mr Aggression Is So Civilised: you haven’t even the gumption to comment on a live thread, but try to sneak in and get the last word on an inactive one.

Coward and hypocrite, what a surprise.

cloudiah
7 years ago

A new slogan for the MRM: “Let’s stamp out compassion and empathy around the globe!”

Some Gal Not Bored at All

xiaobaobao makes it sound like feminism is all that stands between us and On the Beach. That should hurt feminism a lot. *serious nodding*

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

A new slogan for the MRM: “Let’s stamp out compassion and empathy around the globe!”

Acknowledging via a slogan that that’s what they’re about would be the only change, too.

xiaobaobao
xiaobaobao
7 years ago

Look at those femmi tears.

Why the typical female obsession with getting the “last word”? Sorry, I don’t refresh your page every two mins. I said my piece, and you felt it.

Look at the trivial slice of life nonsense you people post. Let me tell you something fun about all you people’s cats. I would gladly eat all of them, using your tears as dip.

Notice how you can’t construct a single logical argument against me? Could it be because feminism is based on feelings and compassion, not reason? Yeah, you know the score. The only reason you get away with it is because there are fat whiteys like David here who succumb to moral thought and actually think he’s superior for it. So until you come up with something worthwhile to say, I suggest you save your vomit for the likes of him.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Aw, look at the brave internet warrior hiding behind his IP randomizer.

(Pats on the head.)

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Aww, and he thinks he’s such a tough guy, talking about his Man Logic, which at the same time gives way to his weird obsession with trying to hurt anyone who’s not a Manly Man. Funny how “feelings” are bad when they’re things like compassion, empathy and joy, but good when they’re the sort he’s indulging in – pettiness, the urge to hurt and bully, and raging insecurity.

Guess what, wanker boy: you fail. Nobody’s hurt, everyone can see through your trolling attempts. The most you get here is being laughed at or scorned. We mock misogynists, remember? Your I’m The Dangerous Sociopath pose is just more troll fail. We’ve seen it all before, sonny.

xiaobaobao
xiaobaobao
7 years ago

Hey look, the femmi has no actual argument. So she resorts to making up things about me instead.

Isn’t that just typical?

Oh you feelin brave? I’m just some lone misogynist nut trolling for responses, right? Come step out of your western echo chamber, then we’ll see who’s right.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

Shaoboobie, if the standard is making arguments, then you’ve already failed, since the post people are replying to is just a series of unsupported assertions only vaguely resembling an argument insofar as they are things to say that would disagree with things other people would say. Typically for an try-hard misogynist troll, you have clearly not learned to distinguish between argumentation and bald assertion.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Coffee anyone? I have no sound argument against troll’s lovely little idea that feminism is all about women’s feelings, and how that’s just terrible because what’s he going to do about his feelings of aggression?

But I do have fresh coffee, and considering my mother managed to get me to go grocery shopping with her for $300 there ought be a variety of breakfast options. Manboobz Sunday brunch, I’ll host 😀

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

$300 *worth of groceries

I haven’t actually had my coffee yet >.&lt:

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

Argenti, you don’t need an argument. All you need is that cheshire grin in your gravatar and trolly will crack.

Also, a Manboobz brunch sounds like the best thing.

pillow in hell
pillow in hell
7 years ago

Mmmmm….yummy brunch!

*said while pouring first coffee of the morning*

French toast!!!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

I ended up settling on a baked potato, microwaved, because I’m both weird and lazy like that ^.^

pillow in hell
pillow in hell
7 years ago

Latkes!

pillow in hell
pillow in hell
7 years ago

Anyone wanna do my laundry? I pay in home made brownies…

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

pillow in hell: I actually like doing laundry, bring it. I’m the kind of person who wanted and got a brand new washer and dryer for her b-day a couple years ago. LGfrontloader4lyfe!

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Strawberry and yogurt museli, anyone?

daniel
daniel
7 years ago

What about the presumption against men for custody in divorce cases? That is one of the few areas where i think MRAs have a decent point (or at least the kernel of one.)

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
7 years ago

Daniel, in Ontario at least, to get custody or shared custody you have to do two things: 1) ask for the custody arrangement you want. 2) show the court that you do actively care for your children on a day to day basis and that you know their routines, homework requirements, daycare arrangements, doctors appointments, that kind of thing. Most fathers who ask for a custody arrangement will get what they want. Its not just a case of mothers getting everything, although women are more often than not the primary caregiver, because society expects and frequently makes it less difficult for women to do the care giving as opposed to men. And its not a case of a women simply claiming abuse from her partner to get what she wants, she would need to show some proof that abuse is happpening.

If there’s one thing I really hate the MRM for, its how they tell men they have no chance of being fathers after a breakup and many men end up in not even trying to arrange shared parenting. Most shared parenting actually doesn’t go before a judge(and most breakups result in a shared parenting/custody arrangement), because the parents come to a mutual agreement beforehand (often joint custody) and the court will honor that agreement.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Daniel: newsflash, the MRM is wrong. In about 80% of cases where the father fights for custody, he gets it. This does require getting off one’s ass and doing some legwork, so you can see where the majority of MRAs can’t be arsed to do that. So they whine.

KT
KT
7 years ago

Eh….you can wrap a turd in gold foil, but it’s still a turd. MRAs may very well SAY they have a few ideas that are an issue, such as the ones that you mentioned. The problem is, they’re 100% pure turd on the inside. They will use that gold wrapper to dazzle you and once you remove the film, all you see is the REAL shit….peanuts, corn, and all.

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