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I’m taking a break. So here’s a fantastic Bollywood dance number.

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Hey, everyone. So I sat down to write something about this horrific discussion of domestic violence on The Spearhead – which some of the Man Boobz commentariat have already started discussing here – and, well, I just couldn’t do it.

I need to step back a bit from this blog for a little while to clear my head and maintain my sanity. So I’m going to take a bit of a break – maybe just a few days, maybe a week – and post nothing but interesting videos and other things having nothing whatsoever to do with misogyny or the manosphere. You all, of course, can treat this any any other thread as a totally open thread to discuss whatever you want, including the regular Man Boobz topics of misogyny and general MRA shitlordery.

I’m going to start off with the dance number that first got me hooked on Bollywood music some years ago. This is from the 1998 film Dil Se, a drama about love and terrorism. But in Bollywood, even serious dramas have dance numbers, and Dil Se’s dance numbers are gorgeous and a little surreal.

The music from the film is by A.R. Rahman, a prolific and popular Bollywood music director best known in the US for doing the music for Slumdog Millionaire.

And  yes, that is Bollywood megastar Shah Rukh Khan dancing on top of a moving train without any safety harness or stunt double or CGI trickery. (Well, there are a couple of brief bits where a double might have been used.) Enjoy!

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katz
7 years ago

Wow. Argenti, just make sure to go to bed before you put a visible dent in your cranium, mmkay?

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Argenti

I’m pretty sure they were well over 1/2 booze, but we’ll say 2/3. We used to have a couple before doing our homework (Latin – me, Calculus – her) for our 8 AM Friday classes. I wonder why I remember so little Latin. OTOH, I can tutor Calc drunk so that is a life skill right there. 🙂

katz
7 years ago

Argenti, have you told him that, if absolute deaths are the problem rather than deaths as a percent of the population, there’s a 100% effective way that we could eliminate all death in about a century?

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@katz

Sooner if it is that important and it doesn’t matte lr how anyone dies. (Or if violence is less bad than natural causes? Was that really the argument, Argenti?)

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

“He’s got a history degree…and apparently an empty shell where his brain once resided.”

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

“fucking life extension”

As in, something that doesn’t exist?

“(good thing my anti-PTSD-nightmare drug is technically a blood pressure drug huh?)”

Slow breathing, slow breathing! Seriously. Watch the fish, watch the kitty if she’s around.

I keep reading transhumanist as trashhumanist now. I do not think this is a coincidence.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

*matter

katz
7 years ago

Sooner if it is that important and it doesn’t matte lr how anyone dies. (Or if violence is less bad than natural causes? Was that really the argument, Argenti?)

Oh yeah, you’re right! So if deaths by violence are no worse than deaths by old age, cut your losses and kill everyone now before they reproduce any more!

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@katz

What about the animals? Don’t you care about the animals at all? We’d better kill them ALL first!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I’d be mean and ask him why he doesn’t create a living will stating that if he’s injured in some way the ER staff shouldn’t bother trying to save him. I mean, all deaths are essentially the same in his view, right? So why should they bother trying to save him when they could be doing something else instead?

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Ask whether he’s an organ donor, too. Hey, life extension! Oh, wait, it’s for someone else, they don’t count, do they?

This whole transhumanist thing seems so … sheltered isn’t even the word for it. I mean, even if it were a workable thing, it would only be for the extremely wealthy, who frankly don’t need MORE ways to be pampered and live to be ninety-something billionaires (yes I’m looking at you Bernie Ecclestone) and gobble up yet more resources.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

It is kind of cryogenic freezing part 2, isn’t it?

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@The Kittehs’

Oh, wait, it’s for someone else, they don’t count, do they?

Well, most people waiting for organs don’t plan on living forever, so they might not be around when the the Transhumanist finally upgrades. (That’s gotta be a long way off even to him, right? Please? Is he planning on being in the first highly-controversial human trials when he is in his 100s?)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Okay, first, I’ve tried the “transhumanism would have the same bias towards money” argument, it should be free and something something that isn’t required per se but really is and I start seeing red about free choice.

Second, oh no, people should be saved if possible, but maybe only if saving them will cause them less suffering than dying? That’s an interesting one… (FTR, it isn’t witnessed and thus official, but I have a living will saying as much)

Three, he probably is a fan of the human extinction movement — but even they are “just don’t have kids, m’k?” But if we did start killing more people than natural causes did, presumably that would make violence more important. Since this is a “more people die from X so X is more important” thing.

Four, he’s goddamned sure the singularity will happen in our lifetimes and Friendly AI will prevent all the bad possibilities and magically know what’s best for everyone and where is Pecunium?! Sorry, why Yudkowsky is dangerously wrong is his area of expertise, not mine. But yes, Friendly AI, go hit up wiki on that one.

Five, this just happened, cuz I’m drunk enough to treat it as hypothetical:

1) you are officially the causal factor in my alcohol consumption, indirectly this make your current levels of idiocy a bad thing per consequalialism (I’m probably under the legal limit though)
2) aging is motherfucking inevitable. I know you want life extension to make you live forever, but in practical terms we all die. And I cannot believe I am having to say this to a competent adult.
2b) you worry about the causes where a. you can do something and b. the overall effect is a negative one. With limited resources you prioritize those. As in yes, a applies to heart disease, but a and b both apply to violence, and the second factor is more prominent in cases of violence than in heart disease.
3) you actually tried arguing that lack of fear is worse than fear. I need another shot. Fuck, I have to covert his to math or get far more drunk, so math it is (do try to learn how analogies work, because that’s point 4):
Thing X causes Y degree of suffering over Z time
Thing A causes B degree of suffering over Z time
If YZ is greater than BC then X is worse than A, agreed?
Violence causes more suffering, in a greater number of people, potentially for generations. Heart disease causes suffering, yes, but for a much shorter time than generations, and generally speaking, less suffering.
4) how analogies work! It’s relevant that populations are larger because I was making a flippin example about why you use ratios instead of raw numbers. If the same percent of people die now, then death is equality bad (and btw? See point 1, 100% of people die, in all time frames) Formal logic time!
X number of people out of Y population die
X number of people out of Z population die
Z > Y
The deaths in population Y are worse because there are less survivors. You’re utterly failing to maximize positive outcomes regarding violence, while insisting on maximizing positive outcomes regarding heart disease — failing to fear a cause of death that’s more common is worse than fearing a cause of death that’s less common but causes more suffering?

There are a small number of life extensionists compared to the general population, agreed?
The general population suffers more fear regarding violence than heart disease, agreed?
The general population does not consider death from natural causes to be as bad as homicide, yes? (Your checkboxes at the corner are natural death, homicide, suicide and unknown; we’ll ignore the last two)
Thus the general population suffers more as a result of violence than heart disease even if that fear is misplaced, yes?

Analogy time! Someone with a disabling phobia suffers extremely as a result, this isn’t in question is it? No matter how misplaced that fear is, no matter how unique to them it is, that one person suffers far more from that phobia than from things they should be worried about but aren’t. Now you come in saying that they should be more worried about X than Y, because X is more likely to kill them and they aren’t actually suffering from the existance of Y. You know you’d be laughed at right? They clearly are suffering from Y, no matter how unlikely it is, and it’s completely fucking absurd to claim that their lack of fear about X causes more over all suffering.

And you’re saying it about legitimate fears!

Does anyone with a working set of ethics want to argue with me? Cuz I’m open to debate that doesn’t make my (theoretical) soul scream.

FTR, he also thinks suicide should be prevented even if that means forced drugging, which it should be obvious I have serious issues with. Mental health services being readily available and with no more stigma than a regular doctor? Oh fuck yes. Psych drugs not being treated as terribly dangerous? Definitely. Inpatient treatment not being stigmatized to the point that it terrifies people who could potentially/actually benefit? Hi, attempted suicide repeatedly while lying about it to avoid locked wards, so yeah, fixing that would rock. Assuming suicidal people are de facto incompetent? Oh fuck no, sometimes it does make sense and we should fix the factors causing it to make sense, and if that isn’t possible, and things really won’t get better (eg *gasp* terminal cancer) then yes, suicide is a motherfucking option.

In any case, you do not, ever, get to force any medical anything on someone just because you’re sure they’d consent if they were competent, especially not if you’re assuming that they aren’t competent solely because they’re refusing treatment. (Did I just answer my standing “what about Jewish circumcision? the timing is important to Jews”?)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Wait, if death is no big deal and neither is death by violence, why is suicide something that must be stopped?

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Argenti

FORCED DRUGGING IS OKAY, BUT DEATH BY NATURAL CAUSES MUST BE COMPLETELY STOPPED?

Wow. How does he propose we determine if drugs are working on someone who doesn’t want to be on them?

In any case, you do not, ever, get to force any medical anything on someone just because you’re sure they’d consent if they were competent, especially not if you’re assuming that they aren’t competent solely because they’re refusing treatment

Also known as why it was okay to coerce me into signing away my right to medical privacy…if I wanted to get better, I’d sign. Plus, didn’t I love my mother? (Bad doctor logic still makes no sense.)

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Some Gal – lol, I was following from Cassandra’s comment that if Mr Transhumanist was being logical about all deaths being equal, he should have a DNR for if he has an accident.

Can’t see anyone wanting his 100 year old innards, though!

Argenti – why does it not surprise me that Astro Boy thinks suicide should be forcibly prevented? I was going to ask before what he thinks about voluntary euthanasia. Why am I getting more and more of an impression that he’s got all the empathy of a robot and wants everyone to be the same … I really hope that doesn’t come across as a shot at anyone on the spectrum, because 1) I’ve not seen any of the regulars here who’re on the spectrum display anything but human decency and empathy and 2) I think this guy’s more about Privileged Douche Living In SF Dreamworld than anything else, since he’s not even tackling it with his Mighty Intelleckchual Brain.

Did this business of The Singularity start with Ray Kurzweil’s book? I had to look it up since I’d not heard the term used in this sense before.

His scenario makes me think I’d be opting out before that happened, kthanks. For that matter, the whole transhumanist thing seems fucking creepy.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Memo to self: research matter of living will and DNR orders.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Maybe we could just dig up the thread where the troll was proclaiming his transhumanist fantasies (which he admitted were a result of people hurting his fee-fees) and link Argenti’s friend there.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

That wasn’t AntZ, was it? He was basic ol’ low-tech virtual reality girlfriends.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Possibly Om Nom?

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Was it quite a while back? I was almost thinking Dumbass the Naive, if it was since Om Nom’s time, though that’s not really his schtick.

At least it wasn’t him – Some Guy Boring As Dry Sticks. 😀

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

In order —

“Wait, if death is no big deal and neither is death by violence, why is suicide something that must be stopped?”

Because all death should be prevented but the things the cause the most deaths should be most prevented!

And honestly, using positive (as opposed to negative) consequalialism it almost works — things should get resource allotments proportional to the suffering they cause. Because we do have limited resources and some things do get more funding than things that are more common.

I’m not sure he’s put enough thought into anything besides “we must cure heart disease and cancer because they’re the leading causes of death” to realize that his views on suicide and violence don’t mesh.

“FORCED DRUGGING IS OKAY, BUT DEATH BY NATURAL CAUSES MUST BE COMPLETELY STOPPED?”

In a worldview (lol that phrase) where death is the ultimate bad outcome, it makes perfect sense. Of course, the only way one can sustain that view is assuming that death will be eradicated before one has to face it, thus anyone willing to die isn’t sane/competent enough to decide against waiting for life extension…this all very much resembles “suicide is the weak way out” huh?

“Also known as why it was okay to coerce me into signing away my right to medical privacy…if I wanted to get better, I’d sign. Plus, didn’t I love my mother? (Bad doctor logic still makes no sense.)”

Ack, I’m terribly sorry! Hugs if they are welcome, tea and whiskey are also available. (Lol, as is Ativan if that’s on your acceptable drugs list)

“Did this business of The Singularity start with Ray Kurzweil’s book? I had to look it up since I’d not heard the term used in this sense before.”

Yudkowsky, I think. Which is why I wish Pecunium were here, he knows Yudkowsky’s bull much better than I do. And yes, I’d not just opt out but fight for those who want to completely and utterly opt out. I am truly disturbed by the idea that uncontacted/minimally contacted people must “upgrade” to our way of living, and upgrade as we get tech upgrades, to be acceptably human. And they must be unable to understand if they opt out. It’s all very cybermen, and I’m not Native American enough to have tribal membership, and was on a reservation for an afternoon (and ran into a dance, funny story for another day) — but I get it enough to know colonialism when it’s staring me in the face.

Kitteh — idk how legally enforceable it is, but anything that can be clearly attributed to your view is preferable to nothing. At least in the US anyways. I’d think though that in any country your view, no matter how little evidence to it’s um, final intent? would be given more weight than if there was no record of your view. That is, here you need a written document with witnesses and preferably a notary for a living will to be the absolute final say, but as the Schivo case displayed oh so clearly, anything is better than nothing. Eg mine isn’t legally enforceable, if if my parents tried to insist I stay on life support with no hope for recovery, there is paper saying that’s not what I’d want. And while I hope neither the best friend nor the not-an-ex will ever have to fight my parents on this, they both know I do not want to be kept alive, at all, if there’s no hope I’ll recover (the not-an-ex is a pharm student, ze understands why I’d refuse antibiotics, if, and only if, my condition was hopeless…medicine is complex…)

Cassandra — that’d be kinda awesome. Any clue what I should Google fu to find it?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

@ Argenti

No idea or I’d have already done it and saved your head from potential dents, sorry.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

That Schiavo case was godawful terrifying. The thought of my body being kept alive while my brain turns to mush (or even worse, is aware but can’t communicate) is so horrible I can’t describe it. Plus, for me, if that means my soul’s trapped there too, aware or not. LET ME GO is my instruction for anything that means any risk of brain damage, coma, paralysis … I’m just visiting here, I have a home to go to!

If Robot Boy thinks death is sooooo terrible and we have to eliminate it, I presume he wants to prevent births as well? Because you can’t go on reproducing if nobody dies, not on a planet with finite resources. Though I can’t see his charmless idea working because of the resources it would take anyway. So what he’s after is presumably a static population of (surprise surprise) rich whites, prolly mostly rich white dudes given the way these things pan out.

Wouldn’t a world full of immortal Trumps and Romneys and Ecclestones and Murdochs and Rineharts be JUST DANDY …

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

The idea of being aware but unable to communicate horrifies me. People should be able to decide for themselves what medical care they are and are not willing to undergo.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Lol, sorry for the delay, I was emailing the not-an-ex more specific wtf I do not want directions. For one I’m that horrified by the idea of being stuck in a brain dead shell, soul issues aside, it’s a waste of resources (see, I am an organ donor, and if I’m not using them, please let someone else). For two, pharm student with a solid et of medical knowledge, if anyone’s going to get why I want things…yeah…and ze possesses an amazing ability to be objective even when the scientific inquiry is personal (treating my self injury wounds as any other injury was so strange, I was so embarrassed and ze was cracking jokes and debating if I needed gauze…weird, awesome…)

Ok, on topic! (Lol, on “topic”)

Finite resources? We’ll find a way around that! Tech will be available to everyone since resources are infinite! People mostly reproduce to pass on genetics and we’ll be sciencing faster than evolution can work, making that obsolete. (Look, I don’t particularly want kids, but that’s clearly bullshit on about three levels)

It’ll be available to everyone cuz it’s just healthcare and that should be available to everyone…at the US/”first world” level…even if they reject it…because if they understood they’d accept it…

*head explodes over the colonialism, Angelo-centrism, patronizing, and just general motherfucking idiocy*

runesandrhinestones
7 years ago

I wouldn’t blame you at all for this – often I read these posts and I’m left speechless at how *insert unidentifiable noise of disgust here* people can be. Have fun with a break!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

@ Integral

I wonder if maybe it depends what age range they’re aiming it toward? I’ve seen a few steamier k-pop videos

It may also depend on how willing the management is to risk alienating fans of the “someday I will marry oppa/cutie pie and zie will love me forever and omg how dare zie kiss someone else” variety. Some of those kids can be scary.

I did find a video with a kiss in it, though! Still an oddly chaste kiss, given that the video stars with a close-up shot of one of the guys naked in the shower (for which all the viewers who are attracted to men say – thanks, director!). But yeah, if you’re going to open a video that way you’d think they might have opted for something a bit racier.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Actual things actually in my inbox — every death is a premature death. Death is not inevitable.

This is beyond pointless.

ellex24
7 years ago

I had to go to bed because I was nodding off at the computer! It was lovely, it’s so nice to be able to sleep (chronic insomniac here).

Argenti, I fear you’re just going to have to back off and wait for real life to catch up to this dude (if it ever does – I’ve met senior citizens who haven’t learned jack-all in their lives). Frankly, it sounds like you’re banging your head against a brick wall.

I can kind of see where he’s getting this type of fail-logic, but in terms of real life and actual consequences and a smidgen of empathy, it doesn’t make sense.

Even if we just take death from violence versus death from natural causes: violence has a bigger fall-out in terms of emotional damage and consumption of resources than heart disease. And urgh, it makes me – and I’m not known for much in the way of sentimentalism – uncomfortable to look at it that way. But I’d rather see my mother die of heart disease than be shot by a mugger, even if she died instantly. If she died of heart disease, me, my brother and all our friends would be sad, but not traumatized by it. If she was shot, I’d be angry and sad, my brother and all our friends would be angry and sad, there’d be a police investigation, it would probably be on the news and people who didn’t even know my mom would be angry and sad and frightened, they’d be worried that there was some asshole out there who might kill more people…

Dying is important and natural, and I’m not just talking about consumption of resources and the natural limitations on the body. I think in the Western world at least, we’ve cultivated an obsession with preventing death at all costs that has made death, even those from natural causes, far more traumatic than it needs to be, both for the person who is dying and for their friends and family.

I love my kitties, each and every one of them. Due to my own personal issues with emotions, I probably love my cats more than I love most of the people in my life. But because I love them, my concern is for their physical and emotional well-being, not mine. And that includes letting them die when it’s time for them to die; helping them to die when their quality of life has degenerated past the point of the possibility of improvement; accepting the realistic limits of their lifespans; mourning them, and then going on to love other cats.

I see no reason why the same should not apply to humans.

howardbann1ster
7 years ago

Going way, way back to the first post in the thread…

The gif of a kitten sleeping on your shoulder, cuddling your neck? OMG. My one cat used to do that.

The other gif of the cat getting super into getting petted? OMG. My other car does that. Allatime.

Cloudiah. YOU HAVE MAGIC MIND-READING SKILLZ.

On Transhumanism and uploads; I just read a book. A really, really good book. Charlie Stross. Accelerando. It starts with ‘well, okay, if you can upload… then…’

And blows my mind. Because if you can run out copies, what happens to them? Are they you? What paperwork goes with this? Can you run out as many copies as possible and crowdsource a problem to yourself? What happens when you lose connection to humanity because you’re in a box? (going back to the Pratchett thread about seeing people as things) And aren’t you a thing, now? Being just a program running on a computer?

And just keeps going, and going, and going, and WOW.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@Argenti Aertheri

Gah on the preventing suicide w/ forced drugging. I mean, I don’t really have any amazingly thought out opinions on suicide, but it seems like if you want someone not to kill themselves you’d be much much much better giving them support and making them feel loved than… that.

re: transhumanism stuff

I can sort of understand where your jerk-ish friend is coming from, since I’ve got issues of ‘ohmigoddon’twannadie’ to, but those are mostly worse when my depressions acting up, since it’s like, ‘wait but this life sucks give me another’*. But the rest of it is just blah. (Actually all of it is blah, I just need to sort out my feelings on death…)

*fun time story. when I was first losing faith in god I was *also* terrified by eternity forever, since my brain just explodes around death, especially since the church (at least our church) had that funny things where one of the big no-no sins was turning your back on god or w/e. It’s like, I’m a decent person, I’m just not feeling it for him… :/ eh, church issues

sorry if this was a derail :/

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Argenti

I also practically fell asleep at the Kindle. It was apparently the night for it.

In a worldview (lol that phrase) where death is the ultimate bad outcome, it makes perfect sense. Of course, the only way one can sustain that view is assuming that death will be eradicated before one has to face it, thus anyone willing to die isn’t sane/competent enough to decide against waiting for life extension…this all very much resembles “suicide is the weak way out” huh?

I think forced druggjng also requires a faith in both drugs working and human beings not lying that neither deserves. Personally, if I were forced to take drugs, I either be screaming about side effects (both felt and possible, but not happening) or thanking everyone for all the help and for making me all better now so that I could go home and stop taking them. Every single category of bipolar meds has been a failure for me and not just on the “they don’t fucking work very well as treatment” front. The daily anxiety attacks from Abilify are actually the best side effects of the lot. My reaction to antidepressants (which ime is all you get at a mental hospital and so would certainly get at some places if being FORCIBLY DRUGGED, even if you strongly suspect you have bipolar, because suicide = depression and they really aren’t set up to evaluate everyone well) is more suicidal thinking. So, basically, forcibly drugging would make suicide more likely for me. Fail at medicine.

Although, I am seconding The Kittehs’ that he is a hopeless case until life teaches him more things.

@cloudiah (but thanks howardbann1ster for reminding me)

I shared those gifs with a friend who was having a bad day and she said they helped. Thank you!

ellex24
7 years ago

Marie – since the religious people keep telling me all about how god loves me and wants the best for me and blah blah blah, but will strike me down or send me to hell or whatever if I don’t proclaim my faith and bow down and worship, despite “not feeling it” (and seriously, you can’t force faith. Wouldn’t faking it be even worse than being upfront about how you really feel, at least in the eyes of this god they keep going on about?), I like to tell them that if their god really is so fantastic, if zie does exist, then zie will understand why I feel the way I do, that I can’t help feeling the way I do, and will give me credit for being honest with myself and others, and living my life the best way I can, as I see fit to live it. And if their god doesn’t, then zie is not a god I want to believe in and I don’t feel zie would deserve my faith or worship.

Wow, that turned into a really long sentence. I hope it makes sense. This is actually something I feel very strongly about.

I don’t want to die, either. But I have to accept that it’s going to happen someday – to me and to everyone I know, unless something really extraordinary happens within my lifetime. And the odds on something that extraordinary and life-changing happening within my lifetime, if it ever happens, are not certain enough to depend on.

ellex24
7 years ago

@Some Gal – that’s horrendous. So many people, including doctors, who should know better, act like medication is some magic bullet that will fix everything, and if the meds don’t work the way they’re supposed to, then there must be something wrong with you (general you as well as specific you).

My youngest brother is bipolar. He was diagnosed before he was 10 years old, but many doctors even now don’t believe that children under 18 can be bipolar. He went through so many damn medications, many of which did not work the way they were supposed to. When he was finally prescribed Lithium…the difference was so profound, it was amazing.

But I’ve met people for whom Lithium didn’t work, or it worked for a while and then stopped working, and they had problems with other meds. Personally, I tend to find an adult dose of many meds is too much, weight be damned, but a children’s dose works just fine; or I experience side effects that aren’t mentioned in the literature. A few meds have no effect at all (if one more damn person tries to give me ibuprofen…).

If someone doesn’t want to live, that’s their choice. I’d absolutely recommend therapy and possibly meds, but in the end, if someone is determined to end their life, they’re going to find a way to do it. At least make it possible for them to do it with as little pain and suffering as possible – for themselves and for others.

I saw this on a bumper sticker once: “Quality of Life is more important than Quantity of Life”.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@some gal

I’d probably be faking being better to if I were being forcibly drugged. I actually have done that at one point, when I was sent to, idk what it was some kind of kiddie asylum. I was acting all defiant and not behaving and stuff until one of the older kids told me the best way to get out would be pretend to go along w/ it. When I got out I stopped taking my meds (really wish I remembered what they were for) and my dad was super pissed when he found out. Luckily my mom was understanding. Sorry for the derail, it just reminded me of a bad time in my life :/

@Ellex

Yeah, I’ve never got that thing about them. Luckily for me, I feel like my mom and dad, who were both religious, raised me w/ a more consistent view, where god loves everyone and you only go to hell if your really, really bad, so you’ll see all your atheist friends in heaven or w/e. They also said pets go to heaven, I think cuz I was a little kid and really worried about that. :p But even having people who take a loving god to mean what it logically would, going to church and hearing about how turning your back on god is a big sin and can land you in hell takes a toll.

I know I’m going to die someday, I just have weird feels about it. (Actually probably a sign my anti-depressants are finally working, since I get all ‘stop talking about it!’ when they aren’t, since I can actually talk about it. Still making my mood a little funky but I have to get used to it.)

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@ellex24

Ibuprofen works for me, but makes me dizzy and confused. When I finally got a proper prescription-only painkiller, not only was the pain better, but I was clearer-headed, stopped being unable to follow conversations from time to time, and could actually read something (even if there is still a lot if rereading, it is still just an amazing improvement). Drugs are funny and far too many doctors seem to think that if they didn’t hear about it, it isn’t real.

@Marie

It wasn’t a derail. Hugs if you want them. That sounds terrible. At one of the hospitals I was in, they had kids there and I just felt so bad for them. Being stuck away from home can suck so much worse when you are young and there’s the food*! Good for that older kid and good for your mom.

*I don’t mean to minimize all the other stuff, it is just unending hospital food is probably the strongest memory I have. I was just 18-19 at the time and very glad that I just made the cut-off to be with the adults.

ellex24
7 years ago

Marie – I actually didn’t mean that as harsh as it came out. It’s easy to say “there’s nothing you can do about it, so you might as well just accept it.” Actually doing so is harder and takes a lot of work. But I think that realizing that it’s what you need to do in order to get on with your life actually does help a bit.

What’s that saying? “[insert deity of choice here] grant me the serenity to accept the things I can’t change, courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

The last one is the hard part! But this comes from dealing with my mother, the chronic worrier. I’m always telling her that there’s no point in worrying about things you can’t do anything about.

She still worries.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

And I realized I should have said I was agreeing with ellex24 not The Kittehs’ on the point to Argenti. Apologies to everyone!

Freemage
Freemage
7 years ago

Also, quick note to one and all–by definition of the original post, there is no such thing here as a de-rail. EVERYTHING is on-topic, so release the Kraken, already!

Furtheratheism:

I think one key element of forging an Asshole Atheist is a fundamentalist Christian upbringing (it’s not always the case, but it does tend to enhance the odds). I grew up Episcopalian, and liberal Episcopal, at that. As a result, I tend to not have much issues with faith-as-a-thing-people-have, so long as it isn’t influencing, say, how they want the world legislated. I’ve known too many good people of faith to regard it as an ‘always bad’.*

But the atheists who come from a more conservative church background? Yeah, when they break away, it’s usually like a rubberband snapping, and all the pent-up hostility becomes part of their new identity. It’s understandable, but often regrettable even so.

*: There is one thing that bothers me about moderate/liberal believers. A great many of them fail to react to offenses by their more conservative brethren. Probably the most extreme example I can think of is the Westboro Baptist Church. Now, obviously, the WBC speaks for very few Christians outside the Fred Phelps clan, and the vast, vast majority of them find him repugnant. But when they first started their protests in the early ’90s, picketing the funerals of (mostly gay) men who died of AIDS, the silence from the larger Christian community was almost deafening. Sure, they’d cluck their tounges and tsk, and if asked directly, would say how horrible it was… but there wasn’t much by way of pushback, or outreach to the families Phelps and Co. were tormenting, either.

It wasn’t until they started protesting the funerals of soldiers who’d died in Iraq and Afghanistan that real, organized resistance came, and then it came not from the churches, but from the Patriot Riders–a group of motorcycle riding veterans who weren’t about to take that crap.

For nearly a decade, the WBC was allowed to get away with spewing its vile, homophobic slurs on national news, and there was no one stepping up to try and get them to stop. That was about the time I stepped away from organized religion–if the churches in America couldn’t be bothered to stop what seemed to me at the time to be obvious blasphemy in the service of hate, what good are they?

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Some Gal, I agree anyway, so you were proactively saying what I’d say and now I’m retroactively saying yeah I agree. Crystal clear, that is. 😉

Death for me used to be a fear (pointless, really) of oblivion, but hugely mitigated by “Well, if Louis doesn’t exist, and all my kitties don’t exist, then I don’t want to either.” Eternity did seem scary, but if you remove our earthly notions of time and find you just don’t get bored, if the mindset and perspective is very different, then it’s not relevant either. Those are the sort of glimpses I get from visiting over There. I’m far less concerned about death now, even with the occasional twitch of “am I imagining this” – if I am, well, I’m not gonna know anyway, and if not – whoop! More things to look forward to!

katz
7 years ago

There is one thing that bothers me about moderate/liberal believers. A great many of them fail to react to offenses by their more conservative brethren. Probably the most extreme example I can think of is the Westboro Baptist Church. Now, obviously, the WBC speaks for very few Christians outside the Fred Phelps clan, and the vast, vast majority of them find him repugnant. But when they first started their protests in the early ’90s, picketing the funerals of (mostly gay) men who died of AIDS, the silence from the larger Christian community was almost deafening. Sure, they’d cluck their tounges and tsk, and if asked directly, would say how horrible it was… but there wasn’t much by way of pushback, or outreach to the families Phelps and Co. were tormenting, either.

OK, I don’t think this is fair. Everyone hates WBC, but what are we supposed to do about them? (Remember, they want you to try to stop them because they make all their money from fee-speech lawsuits.) And why is it our fault when a group we have no connection to does something we don’t like? That’s like all the MRAs whining about how feminists aren’t doing enough about radfems.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@katz

I think comparing churches to a political movement is unfair. As I understand it (having once been in church and very spiritual, if not religious), a church is a community that is there to worship together and provide support. If the support stops at the membership of the church, then it is a pretty shitty church. Any church in the country would organize to form a counter-protest if the WBC. Pretty much everywhere they go, they encounter one these days, but I mostly hear about them being organized by secular groups. Why wouldn’t a church be involved in protecting their community and standing up for their values in a public way?

(If churches are one of the major organizers of counter-protests, I haven’t heard about it.)

Some Gal Not Bored at All

*could not would

katz
7 years ago

If WBC was protesting someone in, or connected to, that church, that would be one thing, but the point is that it’s unreasonable to blame one group for failing to do something about another group that has no connection with them. Just because you happen to think that counter-protesting WBC should be a church’s top priority doesn’t mean that it’s theirs. And anyway that logic can be used to condemn any group because every group is going to have failed to do something about someone that you don’t like.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@katz

If a church has no members of a group targetted by the WBC in their protests, there is either something wrong with the church or it is incredibly small. I am not expecting a living room church to stand up, but a mega church? They could and should be doing something. Of course, a lot of mega churches agree in spirit if not vehemence. Or with the message but not the medium.

I think that churches have a greater calling than most other groups. The premise says that they are more. That they fail to live up to it is why I started disliking churches before I had any idea I would lose my faith.

katz
7 years ago

Some gal, you’re still not grasping the key problem here: Anyone could condemn any group for failing to have the exact same priorities as them. There are all kinds of problems in the world to be addressed and just because you think WBC should be a church’s top priority doesn’t mean that the church is morally failing because they don’t agree.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@katz

I think the problem might be that I think that both the WBC is a major disruption to a community and that the church’s first priority should be protecting their own community -the very community being disrupted. I think they fail if they cannot or will not do that. We are talking about a day or so for each church, not traveling around the country.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@katz

Churches are only just like every other group if there is no god(s).

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@some gal

hugs definitely accepted. I’m mostly over it, (don’t know the reason they put me in there, and I don’t think the medicine they gave me was for depression, which finally got diagnosed six months ago) I really don’t remember what it was for :/ I would like to talk to them about it though, cuz I’ve still got some issues w/ it but…idk. I’m mostly just ranting…..

@ellex

you didn’t come across as harsh, I’m just weird about the death subject.