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I’m taking a break. So here’s a fantastic Bollywood dance number.

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Hey, everyone. So I sat down to write something about this horrific discussion of domestic violence on The Spearhead – which some of the Man Boobz commentariat have already started discussing here – and, well, I just couldn’t do it.

I need to step back a bit from this blog for a little while to clear my head and maintain my sanity. So I’m going to take a bit of a break – maybe just a few days, maybe a week – and post nothing but interesting videos and other things having nothing whatsoever to do with misogyny or the manosphere. You all, of course, can treat this any any other thread as a totally open thread to discuss whatever you want, including the regular Man Boobz topics of misogyny and general MRA shitlordery.

I’m going to start off with the dance number that first got me hooked on Bollywood music some years ago. This is from the 1998 film Dil Se, a drama about love and terrorism. But in Bollywood, even serious dramas have dance numbers, and Dil Se’s dance numbers are gorgeous and a little surreal.

The music from the film is by A.R. Rahman, a prolific and popular Bollywood music director best known in the US for doing the music for Slumdog Millionaire.

And  yes, that is Bollywood megastar Shah Rukh Khan dancing on top of a moving train without any safety harness or stunt double or CGI trickery. (Well, there are a couple of brief bits where a double might have been used.) Enjoy!

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The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

@Freemage – excellent comments! I know squat about science but I’d sure never take any of the douche brigade as being scientists. If they weren’t being internet wankers over atheism/faith they’d find some other topic. Like you said, it’s the people, not the belief system. It’s just another example of People Being Wrong On The Internet, isn’t it?

I’ve seen so many squabbles about whether atheism means a positive statement of “I believe there is no god(s)” or “I don’t believe in god(s)” or whatever, mostly in comment threads in the local paper, which has an occasional column called Godless Gross (Gross being the name of the guy who writes it). He gets attacked by his own readers often enough for not being atheist enough, ie. not hating on every last thing about religion, or feeling a strong, if ambivalent, comfort in the rituals of his own background (he’s Jewish). Somehow I don’t imagine they go round carrying on like this in their daily lives, though; it’s a concentrated setting, like any internet forum, isn’t it? But oy, it’s off-putting. The rest of the time they argue endlessly about interpreting the Bible, not least with one bod who’s dead keen on that interpretation – can’t recall the name, starts with P? – where absolutely everything is some sort of complicated metaphor, or whether agnostics are Traitors to the Cause. ::rolls eyes::

Yeah, re copying, cloning, downloading, whatever – never taken any interest in much of it, but the idea of cloning squicks me out. People who get their pets cloned … I look and think, physically identical copy, but that kitty (for instance) would not be my Katie. If nothing else, she wouldn’t have the same life experiences that influenced Katie’s personality.

@Falconer – I can’t remember which thread it was, either! It was a few weeks back. Gosh, I might have to read some old threads, what a blow. Pecunium’s answer was, in essence, that either there’s no relationship, in which case Mr K’s consent isn’t an issue, or there is, in which case it can be safely assumed.

@thenat – oh gods, that’s horrible! Poor child, and your poor friend! Internet hugs if you want them. 🙁 And ditto especially to what Falconer said, vent as much as you like, it’s a totally shitty situation. Hugs again.

@ellex – nope, just the opposite! I totally do not believe in reincarnation and never have. In fact it’s among the list of beliefs that I really do dislike. No, for me life goes on after we’ve finished with this body; we don’t graduate from high school and go back to kinder. (Hmm, come to think of it, that might be the ideal process for some of our trolls … I’d like to see them shoved back into a literal sandpit right now.) The world of Spirit to me is every bit as corporeal in its way as ours is, hence all the stuff I talk about in the blog (merci beaucoup for taking a look, btw). Louis’s presence here is simply him in Spirit. He’s himself, nobody else. I like a quote I read once: when Creator Spirit gives us the gift of individuality, it always gets it right first time.

Anyway how could humans all manage to reincarnate as kitties eventually? It’s too high a bar.

“Person who does strange things to flowers” ROFL! And yeah, I’m pretty much with Pratchett, I think we make our own afterlife to some degree.

@BlackBloc – I tend to the “more things in heaven and earth” feeling regarding souls. I’m happy to go with my own interpretation of my own experiences, rather than what science may say about things that don’t really seem to be in its remit. Again, at worst it boils down to what adds value to my life, and the beliefs I have developed over the last few years win hands down over my former atheistishy ones. Of course there’s also the fact that scientists are not automatically atheist, which kinda rules out the false hard-and-fast distinction non-scientists of whatever stripe (atheist or Christian creationist, for example) like to create.

BlackBloc (@XBlackBlocX)

>>Of course there’s also the fact that scientists are not automatically atheist

The jump is from about 10% of the general population in the USA to about 80% for American scientists, according to most polls on the subject, and that’s not even considering that a larger than usual proportion of the rest tend towards religious philosophies like Taoism or Buddhism, or that their Christianity/Judaism/Islamism is usually more likely to be on the quasi-Deist end of the spectrum than on the Personal God end, unlike the general population. Considering the strong social pressures to adopt a form of theistic religion in contemporary society, I think that those numbers say a lot.

And I live in a province where the general population of atheists is estimated roughly around 30-40%, nevermind how much more likely it is for scientists to be… I’m not trying to be smug, I just genuinely cannot relate to people who don’t seem to see monism (and, from corollary, philosophical materialism) as an evidence. It’s completely outside of my realm of experience.

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

*high-fives Kitteh*

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

BlackBloc – just saying the US and Canada aren’t the world. 🙂

And my experience/beliefs have gone from essentially materialistic to not-so; deism is as close as anything to describing my feelings these days, I’ve never believed in an interventionist god*. Being unable to relate to someone’s experience is not, itself, an argument for anything. I can’t relate to someone acting on feelings of primary sexual attraction to lots of people. That doesn’t invalidate their experience. (Crummy analogy, no doubt, just the first one I could think of.)

Thing is, this isn’t about organised religion, with which I have LOTS of trouble because of social control issues, ingrained sexism, you name it. This is about a person’s inner life, and that’s not for anyone else to try to demolish (not meaning you or anyone else here is trying that). There’s simply no clash, for me, between what the sciences say about this world and believing in the next. For that matter … I don’t really care about the philosophy of it all. It’s just so not an area I’m interested in. I’m past needing a Theory To Explain Everything.

*that would mean expecting Ceiling Cat to wake up – blasphemy!

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@The Kittehs’

I’ve never believed in an interventionist god

You just reminded me of my favorite love song with that.

Freemage
Freemage
7 years ago

New Off-Topic Topic!

So, I work for a media organization that gets in a large number of books for review; these are then sorted to go to the public library, or to an in-house charity fundraiser. By me. This, of course, means I get a great many books passing through my fingers, and, when the work day is less than frantic, may even get the opportunity to lightly peruse them to see their contents.

Today’s lot included Can Onions Cure Earache? Medical advice from 1769. As I also do a fair bit of role-playing in quasi-historical settings, this sort of thing tends to catch my eye. The book is based on William Buchan’s Domestic Medicine, at the time so great and widely praised a resource that it actually is one of the things Fletcher Christian and the other HMS Bounty mutineers grabbed to take with them.

And so I naturally flipped through it. As expected, it contains some advice that is frighteningly dangerous, and other bits that are surprisingly solid (especially in terms of basic diet and health). And then I run across this passage:

Fathers

The mother is not the only person concerned in the management of children. The father has an equal interest in their welfare, and ought to assist in every thing that respects either the improvement of the body or mind. It is a pity the men should be so inattentive to this matter. Their negligence is one reason why females know so little of it. Women will ever be desirous to excel in such accomplishments as recommend them to the other sex. But men generally keep at such a distance from even the smallest acquaintance with the affairs of the nursery, that many would reckon it an affront, were they supposed to know anything of them. Not so, however, with the kennel or the stables; a gentleman of the first rank is not ashamed to give directions concerning the management of his dogs or horses, yet would blush were he surprised in performing the same office for that being who derived its existence from himself, who is the heir of his fortunes, and the future hope of his country.

Now, obviously, there’s a fair bit in there that’s pretty problematic (though the bit about women desiring to know more about stuff that men value them for knowing is actually a pretty solid description of a known effect of patriarchy, for that matter). But even WITH that, the author still understood the notion that men need to take an equal and active interest (at least) in child-rearing, and that failing to do so was falling down on the job.

Which means that every. Last. Damned. MRA. Fuckwit. Who insists that men shouldn’t be held responsible for their unwanted children is pretty much 240 years behind the times.

Integral
Integral
7 years ago

@CassandraSays

It always amuses me when skimpy clothes and everything-but-kissing is OK, but actual kissing is not. You get this in K-pop too. This is one of my favorite K-pop earworms, but what’s funny about it is that the whole video is girls shaking their asses in tiny hotpants and pretty boy eye candy posing by the pool in swimwear, but they edited out the chaste little kiss at the end because THAT would be going too far.

I wonder if maybe it depends what age range they’re aiming it toward? I’ve seen a few steamier k-pop videos:

Although admittedly that second one stops short of a kiss at the end.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Freemage – that’s a fascinating quotation. Not the first time I’ve seen things written by men centuries ago that have more progressive attitudes (not just within cultural contexts, but straight out) than those of the MRM.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Hey, when did those Like buttons appear? :O

Falconer
7 years ago

Whoa. Like buttons. Groovy.

Falconer
7 years ago

Wait, now they’re gone as suddenly as Kittehs’ develops ninja-tude.

ellex24
7 years ago

Kittehs’ – Oh, I see! I had assumed reincarnation since you write in your blog about remembering things, and didn’t notice the astral travel tag. *facepalm* And those posts make much more sense now.

I did want to say that the sense of peacefulness and contentedness in those posts is simply extraordinary. I’ve bookmarked your blog for further reading.

I had someone tell me once, while discussing the possibility of reincarnation, that they thought that this was not only the first life in which I’d been human (assuming that being human is not necessarily the apex lifeform), but that this was the first life I’d lived on this planet.

I rather liked that idea.

But I’m open to lots of different ideas. No one belief system has ever struck me as the “right” one. The only thing I can point to that really puts me off is the omnipotent, omniscient God of the major Christian religions. I find it a truly frightening and disturbing concept, although the (sadly often lost) community support oriented purpose of organized religion is well worth supporting.

I admit to being a real life troll when it comes to people knocking on my door in order to proselytize. I like to grab the nearest cat and introduce him as my deity of choice.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

I admit to being a real life troll when it comes to people knocking on my door in order to proselytize. I like to grab the nearest cat and introduce him as my deity of choice.

FYI, tea is really gross when you snort it out through your nose.

One of the various things that bugs me about reincarnation is that (at least what I’ve seen of it) does posit humans as the highest earthly lifeform, and I’ve read claims of animals being unhappy at not being human! Which pisses me off hugely for all sorts of reasons, evolutionary and otherwise. On a gut level, when people would sometimes ask if they thought I was reincarnated (as in, had been with Louis in his earthly days) it felt like “Hello, thanks for saying I fucked up so massively, that’s really nice” with a side order of hating the idea that any deity could be so cruel as to make him go through another earthly life after what he endured.

One interesting idea I read in a book called The Risen is that you can choose to have a reincarnation experience – but it’s not literally being reborn in an earthly body, it’s all happening in Spirit. Not something I’d be trying, my need for novelty doesn’t stretch that far, lol.

Hope you enjoy the blog! I really have to pull my finger out and do some more posts. There’s a long weekend coming, maybe I’ll catch up then … ::sounds of oinking from overhead::

ithiliana
ithiliana
7 years ago

@AMorgan:

I found that some of the most horrible comments were not from the Spearhead at all, but from the site where the photoessay itself was published, with commentary from people, who, judging by their handles, were probably women themselves, engaged in the most vitriolic, victim-blaming rhetoric that could easily hold its own against the most seasoned of MRAs.

Keep in mind that just as there are men who are feminists, there are women who are MRAs and/or misogynistic–and women blaming women (for rape, for domestic violence, for just about everything) is common. Horrible, but completely common. I gather that some part of it is a variant of magical thinking: i.e. “if I can persuade myself that only bitches/sluts/tramps/evil women are treated horribly, then I can be sure I am never treated horribly by NOT being a b/s/t/ew” type of thinking.

I never read the comments on the sites David links to (in fact, I never read the sites David links to–that’s my own self-protection against burnout and rage that can too often turn inward into depression.)

@Argenti Aertheri: Who put gay white men in charge of the GLBT movement anyways? Gay cis white men as far as I recall…..*sigh* **offers internet hugs if they’re welcome**

@thenatfantastic: I’m so sorry to hear about your friend’s daughter. **offers internet hugs**

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Oh, ellex – you could always tell doorknockers you believe in reintarnation.

ellex24
7 years ago

Kittehs’ – ROFLpaws!

Fortunately, I had just swallowed a potato chip when I looked at that picture, because that would be kinda painful to snort out of my nose. Unfortunately, neither Tigwell nor Rory is the kind of cat that would be willing to play dress-up, and Toby, who was very patient about wearing dolls clothes, is long gone.

I’m not too pleased with the traditional forms of reincarnation, either. My mother and I often remark that a true reward would be coming back as someone’s beloved pet. But I’ve spoken to many people who view reincarnation as something less humanocentric (is that a word?) and less judgemental than the traditional forms. You come back if you want to come back. Maybe there’s a place to go in between lives, or maybe there isn’t. There’s nothing wrong with being a human, or a cat, or an ant. Maybe ants lead wonderful, fulfilling lives!

I don’t like people trying to pin these things down and make up rules for it, or telling other people “this is the way it is and anything else is wrong”. None of it provable or measurable. Why can’t I believe in reincarnation today and the afterlife tomorrow? Why can’t I believe in both at once?

I also strongly dislike this notion of some kind of judgement at the end of one’s life. Who is judging, and by what standards? So the idea of life just continuing on in one form or another, without judgement, without tiers of achievement (Life is not a board game…oh wait, yes it is), is very attractive to me. I like the idea that it’s about the vast wealth and opportunity of experience that multiple lives offer.

But tomorrow I may be pondering the best way to organize the nine circles of hell when I get there. Or imagining that I will arrive at the pearly gates and be told “We’ve been waiting for you – we need someone to get this place in order”.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@ellex24

I admit to being a real life troll when it comes to people knocking on my door in order to proselytize. I like to grab the nearest cat and introduce him as my deity of choice.

When my sister became an atheist Mormon* in high school, the missionaries who came over asked me to join them and they promised that they would respect my non-beliefs. They finished the first session by telling me to pray to the God I didn’t believe in while believing and then I would know their religion is true. To this day, I am sorry I didn’t offer them the deal that I’d do that if they prayed to the turtle (tortoise?) from Stephen King’s It while believing and let me know what his answer was. I mean, if we are just going to start believing in things and then go looking for confirmation, why not start with that turtle? He was pretty smart.

I just held my tongue and never returned.

*She “converted” because her friends were Mormon and she wanted to do Mormon social things with them. She has been baptised for the dead, though, so that is neat. Her “conversion” was evidently real enough for the bishop who is supposed to be running these things by God.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

ellex – I feel much the same way about many of those things! I don’t see reincarnation as a happenin’ thing, but the reincarnation experience across the veil would certainly work the same way. And yeah, coming back as a kitty, or at least, one of my own kitties, would be a reward, lol.

I also think of the life to come as a continuation, a chance to heal and learn and expand. I don’t think of a judgemental deity at all (well … Ceiling Cat, maybe) but I do think people are likely to do a lot of self-improvement once self-awareness kicks in, and from what I gather it takes a bit of an effort to keep your blinkers on once you’ve crossed.

On life as a board game … YES IT IS and cats still jump on the board and chuck the pieces everywhere.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

How on earth can you just turn belief on, like a switch? Weird.

I cannot abide that baptism of the dead thing. The sheer presumption of it (and no, I don’t think it can affect those who’ve passed) infuriates me. It’s not that long ago Mormon men were pretending that baptising famous women – Cleopatra, for instance – would force those women to be their slaves wives in the afterlife.

I posted a warning on HP in an article about this: any Mormon who still hangs on to those beliefs after they’ve crossed had better not come near Mr K’s and my house, because if they do, they will get a bucket of cat piss to the face.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@The Kittehs’

I meant “neat” in the “so she has got some stories” sense not at all that I think the practice is at all okay. I find it appalling, but I find a lot about Mormonism appalling so I tried to leave that out if my missionary story because I think the “we’ll respect your beliefs, but you have to believe in ours” is appalling enough.

ellex24
7 years ago

I can believe in five impossible and contradictory things before breakfast. But Belief, as in Faith, is different story. I don’t think faith can be turned on and off voluntarily. People who tell me to “just have faith” in whatever deity they’re selling me worry and irritate me.

How can you baptize someone who is already dead? Wouldn’t that violate their freedom to choose their religion? Isn’t it the height of arrogance to assume to know what someone long dead whom you’ve never even met would want, when the thing you think they would want didn’t even exist when they were alive?

Then again, I’m often saddened that the people I’ve met who claimed to be the most devout have also been some of the most arrogant, insensitive and un-self-aware people I’ve ever met. I’ve also met some truly wonderful people who had an amazing ability to have faith in their deity, but they actually understood the concept of humility.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@ellex24

How can you baptize someone who is already dead? Wouldn’t that violate their freedom to choose their religion?

The flippantish version is that they Baptiste a living person in the dead person’s name and then some functionary in Heaven heads out to the waiting room and asks the dead person if they want to accept it. They keep trying to do it to poor Anne Frank, which makes my blood boil. (And I don’t believe anything happens directly from it or that Anne Frank knows. I believe she is just gone, but people remember her and that is important as is how.)

FWIW, there are missionaries in Heaven so if the Mormons are right, we might never escape them. The Kittehs’ probably has the right idea there.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

* baptize

ellex24
7 years ago

Some Gal – What an extraordinary (and frankly, ridiculous and pointless and offensive) notion.

If there are missionaries in Heaven, it ain’t Heaven. Of course, if there are no kitties in Heaven, the same holds true.

Well, that clinches it, I suppose. I’m staying here. Someone else will have to organize Heaven.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Most transhumanists tend to avoid this aspect of it–they specifically talk about leaving ‘meatspace’ behind, and act as if the copy and the original are not merely identical, but actually the same entity–that there’s a transfer between the two environments.

Ironically enough, that’s a faith-based rather than science or logic-based belief, given that we don’t have any way to prove that such a transfer would be possible, and we can’t check in with people who’ve been transferred to see if they’re happy about it. The whole thing is quasi-religious, which is part of why I find transhumanists so incredibly silly (if you’re going to hold religious or spiritual beliefs I’m going to have a lot more respect for you if you’re honest about it, with yourself as well as with others).

The Mormon thing of baptizing dead people is so messed up. I mean, I’m an atheist, so I don’t think it makes any difference at all to the dead people in question, but the arrogance of it is just appalling.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“‘I admit to being a real life troll when it comes to people knocking on my door in order to proselytize. I like to grab the nearest cat and introduce him as my deity of choice.’

FYI, tea is really gross when you snort it out through your nose.”

Seconded! Basement cat is trying to choke me!

thenatfantastic — fuck, that’s horrible. I haven’t words besides that I’m sorry. And an offer of hugs and/or more tea.

Ithiliana —
“Gay cis white men as far as I recall…..*sigh* **offers internet hugs if they’re welcome**”
Always! Thank you (I had a particularly stupid day with the psych, so they’re extra appreciated)

b/s/t/ew … b stew … sounds delicious

ellex24 — teensy note, but it’s six impossible things before breakfast (and with the Cheshire Cat avatar, I ought to know!)

As to the whole cybermen / downloads thing, dude insists that it wouldn’t be traumatic because people would be prepared for it. Which is when I bash myself upside the head with one of my $100 psych textbooks (fuck are textbooks expensive! and I couldn’t even sell back half of mine!). And yes, dude just needs to get out more, particularly to places/forums where he isn’t the smartest one in the room and actually gets challenged.

The refusal to acknowledge how much of transhumanism is influenced by sci-fi is really annoying though (then again, annoying is dude’s natural state lately)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“Ironically enough, that’s a faith-based…”

Want to watch a transhumanist turn neon red? Say that. Dude still has no ply besides the schoolyard “no it isn’t” and since I don’t give enough shits I don’t bother arguing why it is.

Faith supposedly requires something that will always be unprovable, while this topic would be provable once we could it…which is so entirely begging the question that we always get derailed into a discussion of logical fallacies.

And yes, the Mormon baptisms are gross. Also, going back a page — Kalora, the other neopagans you reference? *waves*

I’ll take reincarnation as a clown loach 🙂 (big surprise!)

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Argenti

Hugs for the psych appointment then!

dude insists that it wouldn’t be traumatic because people would be prepared for it.

Oh! That’s why my fibromyalgia was traumatic because it was a surprise! Oh, that’s right, it wasn’t because we knew that chronic fatigue and/or fibro often follows terrible cases of mono like I had. But there is knowing in theory and knowing in fact. Almost makes me wish he could feel what my fibro is like, but y’know, I’d warn him first. 🙂

ellex24
7 years ago

Surprisingly enough, it’s entirely possible to be traumatized by something you’re prepared for but have never done…because it’s not possible to be entirely prepared for something if you’ve never done it before.

Oh, Argenti, I’m frankly impressed with your patience in talking to this guy. And I really hope that the experiences he hasn’t had yet (but will eventually) aren’t as traumatic as a lot of people’s experiences are.

I’m always reminded of Sweeney Todd telling Anthony: “You are young/life has been kind to you/You will learn.”

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

dude insists that it wouldn’t be traumatic because people would be prepared for it.

I’m going to go ahead and make an educated guess that this dude has never experienced anything traumatic.

When my mother had cancer we all knew, after a certain point, that she was going to die. Her death was still traumatic for everyone around her.

ellex24
7 years ago

I knew it wasn’t five impossible things, but I couldn’t recall how many it actually was! LOL, I am no Cheshire cat.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“I’m going to go ahead and make an educated guess that this dude has never experienced anything traumatic.”

Afaik, no. Well, unless you count either amicable divorce or intentionally staying at your mothers place to save on rent…so um, not really, no.

ellex24 — my patience here is that I knew dude a decade ago, and he wasn’t this fucking bullheaded then. Just clueless, but then, 18~? Who has their shit sorted then?

“I’m always reminded of Sweeney Todd telling Anthony: “You are young/life has been kind to you/You will learn.””

So very true!

Some Gal — thanks. And yeah, knowing in theory and practice are two totally different things. My abnormal psych class? I had a case of “smartest person in the room”, the tests where basically case studies with obvious symptoms (all but “this is symptom X”) or straight match the symptom to the DSM Dx. I set the curve. Want to know how much that helped when fucking Remeron made me spend nearly two weeks in mixed state hell? Not one iota.

No amount of understanding the science behind it, or what other people say it’s like, prepares you. Hell, take the flip side, anyone here really understand what sex (of any variety) was like before they did it? It just doesn’t work that way.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“And my 60 million figure includes all deaths every year, yes. A death is a death; why rate a death from violence as worse than a death from heart disease or cancer? I would wager that deaths from disease are not only more debilitating but also more painful and more expensive and more preventable than deaths from violence, so it’s quite possible that they matter more, if anything.

60 million dying per year means six Holocausts, or an entire World War II, every single year.”

My patience, it is gone. I actually just pointed out, to a grown up, with a college degree, that everybody dies. Falconer, you bought Everybody Poops yet? Can I beat myself upside the head with it? I’ll change some diapers in exchange.

katz
7 years ago

Ironically enough, that’s a faith-based rather than science or logic-based belief, given that we don’t have any way to prove that such a transfer would be possible, and we can’t check in with people who’ve been transferred to see if they’re happy about it.

And, indeed, it would be impossible to ever prove that the transferred person was, in fact, the same, since the newly-created person would think zie was the same person whether zie was or not. (Eg, there’s no way to distinguish between an identical copy that is absolutely positive that it’s the original and the original.)

Transhumanists are silly.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

“Basement cat is trying to choke me!”

I knew it! I knew it! Ellex is worshipping Basement Cat!

In no particular order – I’d rather enjoy seeing a transhumanist turn neon red. Be really useful at slow pedestrian crossings.

Errrm how on earth does knowing something’s going to happen make it less traumatic? Dude needs to read some history. Or accounts from prisoners of war, f’rex.

Some Gal, don’t worry, I didn’t think you thought the Mormon beliefs were cool – sorry if my response read that way! I just got onto the baptism stuff because I read a fair bit about it on HP back in the day. There are Jewish communities in the US who’ve had to extract promises from them not to “baptise” Holocaust victims (such as Anne Frank, yes). That stinks on so many levels – the insult to Jews that those who were murdered for being Jewish should have this quasi-Christian rite imposed on them; the idea that it’s treated as an opt-out rather than an opt-in; and that those bastards (yes I’m looking at you Romney) go on doing it even after promising not to.

Argenti, I take it you haven’t had a chance to throw Mr K into the hot mix of Science, Ur Doin It Rong with this bloke yet? 😉

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@katz

Silly and about to give Argenti a large lump on zir head.

@Argenti

🙁 More hugs? (And no more books to the head.)

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

“And my 60 million figure includes all deaths every year, yes. A death is a death; why rate a death from violence as worse than a death from heart disease or cancer?”

What the fuckity fucking fuck? Does Mr Intelligent have sheep-dip for brains? How is dying of natural causes compare with being murdered? Spectrum or no spectrum, how can he not grasp it even at an intellectual level?

And yeah, hey fuckwit kid, EVERYTHING DIES, even if it takes thousands of years (hello beautiful redwoods). Get used to the idea.

No wonder you’re out of patience with him, Argenti, kudos to you for lasting this long.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

All this transhumanist stuff and who’s-the-copy makes me think of the Flesh.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“Dude needs to read some history. Or accounts from prisoners of war, f’rex.”

He’s got a history degree…and apparently an empty shell where his brain once resided.

“How is dying of natural causes compare with being murdered? Spectrum or no spectrum, how can he not grasp it even at an intellectual level?”

Because he’s arguing that there’s no reason not to treat them the same because fucking life extension motherfuckers.

And I just got a reply to my attempts at level headed math, this should be good (good thing my anti-PTSD-nightmare drug is technically a blood pressure drug huh?)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Is his next argument going to be that deaths from starvation are no biggie because everyone gets hungry sometimes?

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Flesh mets cybers met angels met daleks. The final show down!

Thank you, I needed that mental image.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Is this particular transhumanist one of the “well, my life here isn’t going how I want BITCHES WON’T FUCK ME IT’S TERRIBLE so we may as well all just leave our bodies behind” ones, like that one troll we had for a while?

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

*bangs head off wall* you can’t compare all deaths to deaths of any specific cause because everybody dies of something

You have to compare specific causes, eg is heart disease more deadly than cancer. I mean fuck, obviously there are more deaths from everything, annually, than from any individual cause. You can compare years, which year had more deaths from everything combined (holocaust is deadly on that measure, probably by a lot considering that would include soviet starvation)

Also, this is a perfect example of why you have to use ratios not raw numbers. Else every year is deadlier than the last because *gasp* there are more people. Pick a general, older, hobby, anything. Musical instrument, bird watching, anything. There are, nearly for sure, more people doing it now than in the 50s, or the 1850s, does that mean it’s more popular now? Raw numbers say yep! ‘Cept there are more people, so you have to use the rate of bird watching among the population.

Your consequalialism fails btw, you’re not minimizing negative outcomes by saying that living in fear of murder is less negative than not fearing something because fearing it could be preventable. It’s not just fearing for yourself, but things like whether your kid is going to get shot walking home.

I could compare deaths from violence to deaths from aging. Since aging causes two out of every three deaths (worldwide), aging is at least twice as bad as violence even if violence causes the other third, which it doesn’t (since there are also infectious diseases and accidents to take into account).

It’s also irrelevant that populations are higher today than they were in the past. Higher populations means more people dying, but more people dying doesn’t make death less bad. More deaths equals more of a bad thing, not less.

The counter to your fear argument is that fearing more for others (friends and family, at least) who are at risk of developing, say, heart disease and cancer would also be beneficial (in persuading them to take preventative steps against them, in increasing political support for medical research, etc.).

I give up, this is an endeavor in stupidity that makes MRA math look fun.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Anyone want some whiskey? I just poured myself a (Dixie) cup full. Did you know that bathroom cups are two shots?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Yep, being afraid that someone you love might due sure is a beneficial thing.

(This person used to be a friend of yours? I’m so sorry.)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Die, not due. I can type good, honest.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Argenti

The little Dixie cups or the big awesome Dixie cups that I used to make Jello shots in in college? I think the big ones are bigger than that, but maybe my memory was impeded by the contents.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Cassandra — I nearly banged this person at one point. I was young and stupid sure, but this is amazing levels of ignorance even in light of his transhumanism life extension bullshit. And I really wish Pecunium were around, he’s far better versed in dealing with Yudkowsky’s talking points.

Also, just over one shot, literally while eating (bite potato, sip whiskey, bit potato), yes on meds that increase the effect, but I should be able to blow a non-DUI breathalyzer, and I’d be terrified to drive like this. I’m quite sober enough to consent, and clearly sober enough to grasp the consequences of actions, but tunnel vision ala focused on one thing? Oh fuck yes.

Yeah, I can, hypothetically, wrap my head around the idea that warning your loved ones about heart disease is a good thing. What I can’t get my head around is that this makes the reasonable fear of being shot just for being there less horrible. And Mr. Privileged Life doesn’t get what people living with inner city crime experience (honestly, neither do I, other than as a “don’t put bedrooms near front windows” home design level thing…I grasp that the fear is real, I don’t have to feel it though) — this is the same dude who was arguing that the murders of poor people are more important than of trans* people because raw numbers.

Because fuck, the stories of not letting your kids // not being allowed to sleep near the front of the house because you might get shot in a drive-by? That sounds terrifying, more so than my fears about genderqueer presentation. The not-an-ex passes exceedingly well, which makes me worry more…maybe I just lack a sense of fear for myself…but I worry what would happen if zir anatomy were discovered to be counter to zir presentation (I can’t pass for shit, which sucks, I used to honestly confuse people, I enjoy people going “sir? Ma’am? Um, sir?” …cruel of me maybe?)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Some Gal — the little ones are 3 oz, the big one’s 5. 1.5 oz shots makes the big ones 3.33 shots, if solely booze, adjust for ratio of booze to jello.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Question – what’s his point with all of this? Is he just arguing for the sake of arguing or trying to convince you of something specific?