How would you define feminism in a sentence or two?
Wait, stop thinking, for Reddit’s ImissAOL has already provided a wonderfully concise and accurate definition:
I see modern feminism as the equivalent to letting your kids stay up all night eating ice cream.
He adds, helpfully:
Just because they feel they are getting their way doesn’t mean it is actually benefiting them.
Gosh, that’s not patronizing at all!
Sometimes doing this blog makes me hungry.
I’m going to assume you’re really young, because you sound young. You can be exceedingly ignorant, yet you’re also completely convinced about the rightness of everything you say. This is a bad combination. You really, really need to learn to come into a conversation and respectfully listen, rather than barging in and announcing to everyone what you’re sure is right.
“Gah!!! I just… this is mansplaining on a whole new level for me. And I remember Owly!”
I know right?! Speaking of Owly, he never did answer those challenges huh? (And welcome back, long time no see!)
@katz:
I shall stop discussing it, but leave one final thought on the subject: Why would UK schools promote it in the ’90s by explaining it as a positive thing if it was a terrible thing?
P.S. I know my last comment may sound trollish, but it’s the best example of separating a man from the title of father that I know of.
What is it this week with the boring UK trolls? Has there been some kind of manboobz promotion over here?
@Martyn
1. I was not asking for you to explain how you think father’s rights worked. I was positing a hypothetical to katz about how I MIGHT support them if they worked like that, meaning I don’t think they meet my criteria as it stands.
2. I was using father to mean male parent and mother to mean female parent. I should have made that clear. Thus, mothers do not necessarily get pregnant. I feel this is more consistent with how society uses the terms. (Still gender binary though. Aside: If anyone can help me move the conversation more toward inclusivity, but not out of the Advanced 101 I’m trying with Martyn, I’d appreciate it.)
3. I was asking you to address the comments I made here:
http://manboobz.com/2013/02/25/feminism-its-like-letting-your-kids-stay-up-eating-ice-cream/comment-page-3/#comment-262855
There is much more there than father’s rights organizations.
THIS IS NOT STOPPING.
This is continuing to talk. It’s trying to get the last word in, which is childish.
Now, of course you have the right to talk about whatever you want–I can’t make you stop and shouldn’t be able to–but when you keep going on about something people have asked you to drop, that shows entitlement. You think you should get to control the conversation and make it be about whatever topic you want.
Martyn, I can’t believe I am saying this to someone claiming to have gone to school over a decade ago.
SCHOOLS ARE NOT THE BE-ALL, END-ALL OF TRUTH AND IN MANY CASES PEDDLE BULLSHIT.
Nah, this is more Baby’s First Forum Post. Although I’m mystified as how he can read the scattered mess that is MRA blogs and come away with an encyclopedic knowledge of their talking points, but then read feminist blogs and absorb nothing
PS I’m not a lesbian, so I can’t say conclusively, but I’m assuming that referring to lesbian mothers as “female fathers” is really fucking offensive.
Why did my school teach me that condoms didn’t protect against HIV because viruses are smaller than sperm?
It wasn’t until years later that someone pointed out that condoms are watertight and water molecules are way smaller than viruses!
Some Gal — I use penis/uterus-havers (despite those not really being comparable anatomically). I’m not really sure that works when using mother and father to include non-biological parents. That, and that trans* people may not have had surgery and thus be, in a purely biological sense, a penis/uterus-haver, while being a mother with male bits (or father with female bits, eg “the pregnant man”)
Non-binary wise…parents, just stick with parent(s).
And I’m only complicating this, sorry. In the context of a father’s rights discussion, it seems logical to focus on people presenting as male, the laws themselves are binary so I’m not sure how to be inclusive in light of that.
@katz
I assume the female fathers thing is a refernce to birth certificate bullshit. It strikes me as absorbing half of the arguments/compromises on them, which its the source.
Shouldn’t a birth certificate list the bio-father anyway? If you adopt a baby, you don’t put your name on its birth certificate, AFAIK.
“Nah, this is more Baby’s First Forum Post.” — fair enough
“PS I’m not a lesbian, so I can’t say conclusively, but I’m assuming that referring to lesbian mothers as “female fathers” is really fucking offensive.” — me neither, but yeah, even if that’s the legal wording, I’d be disinclined to use that wording.
…and my father is ranting about how psych meds make people dangerous. Apparently unmedicated bipolar is safer than bipolar meds *is on bipolar meds*
Today is just one big fail boating endeavor. Speaking of fail boating! Anyone else seen the plans for a Titanic II? All I can think is Voyage of the Damned (post-season-3 Doctor Who Christmas special)
katz — I think you can have the birth cert changed to use the adoptive parents’ names. Not sure I can cite that though.
Our version of factions here are the people who always think everyone is a sock and the people who never think anyone is a sock. I’m in the latter camp.
@Argenti
I’m sorry we are excluding you (and plenty of other people). I started trying to think how to fix it and only got really complex. Is feminism centering on women an okay way to put it? I feel like it is at least honest given feminism’s fucked up history, but it feels like we could do better. (This seems like we’ll start treading the same ground as the allies vs. feminists terminology discussion, though, so I won’t mind if you want to bow out before it starts.)
Also, *reference and fits. My browser is having a crisis right now. I should restart the kindle, but maybe after the last crash it will work. (Fingers crossed.)
@katz
I think they are at least trying to get Parent 1 and Parent 2 instead of mother and father. I know they did that (or tried to) for passports and the Christian Rights started howling. I shall go check.
Anyway, regardless of what the form says, it doesn’t make lesbian parents fathers (or gay parents mothers).
@Argenti
If dangerous to self counts, this is pretty true for me. *is at least temporarily on bipolar meds and also reasonably sure that wouldn’t count*
Hugs if you want them. I’d offer you my snack of potato chips in frosting, but I know you don’t dig the salty stuff. 🙂
Yeah I really don’t want to go down that terminology wormhole again, particularly not the way today’s going. I can’t figure out a concise way to be inclusive besides just referring to parents as, you know, parents. I get that it gives Christian Rights groups a case of the angries, but father and mother are sort of inherently gendered. And regarding binary trans* people, I see no non-transphobic reason not to use father for trans* men and mother for trans* women.
All I’ve got for non-binary parents though is the obvious “parent”. NB: I have no intent on reproducing and thus no strong feelings on this.
As for “lesbian fathers” and “gay mothers” — no, maybe if “gay mothers” is meant to mean “lesbian mothers” but really, considering that even that is a weird intersection with male privilege, I’d personally not use gay to include lesbians (this is why I like queer btw, but ymmv)
I’m also included to use run-on sentences. Sorry.
@katz
From Jan. 2011
http://www.lgbt-news.com/2011/01/wording-revised-in-new-gender-neutral.html?m=1
That is what I was thinking of. Apparently, Romney stopped MA from doing mother or parent 1, father or parent 2 wording while he was governor and they had to cross out mother and father and write it in. We finally fixed that 2 years ago.
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/articles/2011/02/17/mass_moves_to_standardize_birth_certificates/
It seems like birth certificates are probably a mess in the US, overall.
@Argenti
Another way that father’s rights centers the already-centered, btw. Maybe we need a parents’ rights group that helps everybody with custody issues. They’ll help more women than men because women get screwed over with courts more, but they can help fathers too. That would make me more comfortable than father’s rights.
@Argenti Aertheri: Interesting way to look at it. I wonder how it works if someone starts out as mother and then changes gender with full surgery but prior to being a parent was fine with being female…
@Some Gal Not Bored at All:
The reason I said that was because schools peddle only what the government deems acceptable to peddle. Aware of that. But a good point nonetheless.
@katz:
I’m a 22 year old university student, soon to be 23. Now it’s not an assumption anymore 😉
I’m not completely convinced, otherwise I wouldn’t be conversing on here right now. I suffer from a psychological defect. I am compelled to justify what I say, which is ultra useful in academic study and in political debates but it makes me look godawful when making conversation in the real world. What looks like ignorance is really the presentation of a counter argument when invited to address what someone has said. It doesn’t mean I haven’t taken on-board what is said. Due to the limitations of text, I can’t nod my head, say “uh huh” or give some other simple indication that I’ve listened.
I could obviously present my interpretation of the feminist articles linked to since engaging in conversation with people here but that would be slightly redundant when I happen to agree with the content, wouldn’t you agree?
There are two issues there which cause that to appear to be the case:
1) I’m commenting on a blog and take a lot of time to carefully consider my writing, therefore by the time I’ve posted, there are already comments I’ve not yet read; which makes it look like I’ve ignored people. It’s an inherent limitation of the medium and I do try to work around it with copy/paste out of notepad and regular refreshes of the page but there’s only so many adjustments I can make before I end up taking hours writing a single comment.
2) I am in no way saying “I’m not wrong”, maybe that’s the impression I’m giving and for that I apologise; would it sound wrong to ask how exactly I can convey that I’m listening? Also, I’m looking at things based on the sources of information I have. I’ve learned a lot from the conversations on here, which has not only clued me in on why my earlier comments received the reactions they did but has also given me a very different perception of feminism as a whole compared to before I started conversing here.
I don’t mean to convey ignorance. But if I don’t have the information to address Some Gal Not Bored at All’s argument and cannot easily gather enough information of decent provenance to address the argument, then all I can say is I cant address it and give out the only information I already have.
—
This took a long time to write and many page refreshes to check for new comments >_>
Some Gal — I’m not sure I follow what you mean with the query as to whether temporary bipolar meds would count, but I’m sure danger to self doesn’t count to my father. See, other people must be protected from us crazies (sorry if the term bothers me, I usually only use it self-referentially but not sure how to do that in context). Danger to self is, of course, just a case of “attention seeking” and “use your bootstraps!”
Luckily, the lamictal just tastes horrible, no notable side effects. Klonopin induced my last suicide attempt though, so yeah, know what you mean about unmediated sometimes being safer. (Btw, tums do have enough of their own nasty taste to override the lamictal taste)
And while I appreciate the offer, me and my on again off again eating disorder are having enough of a fit over those brownies my mother made >.<
… sorry people, my comment is outdated. I’m not trying to hijack the new conversation :$