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Feminism: It’s like letting your kids stay up eating ice cream

funny-crazy-mad-kid-girl-ice-cream-youll-scream-pics

How would you define feminism in a sentence or two?

Wait, stop thinking, for Reddit’s ImissAOL  has already provided a wonderfully concise and accurate definition:

I see modern feminism as the equivalent to letting your kids stay up all night eating ice cream.

He adds, helpfully:

Just because they feel they are getting their way doesn’t mean it is actually benefiting them.

Gosh, that’s not patronizing at all!

Sometimes doing this blog makes me hungry.

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katz
7 years ago

I’m going to assume you’re really young, because you sound young. You can be exceedingly ignorant, yet you’re also completely convinced about the rightness of everything you say. This is a bad combination. You really, really need to learn to come into a conversation and respectfully listen, rather than barging in and announcing to everyone what you’re sure is right.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“Gah!!! I just… this is mansplaining on a whole new level for me. And I remember Owly!”

I know right?! Speaking of Owly, he never did answer those challenges huh? (And welcome back, long time no see!)

Martyn Hare
7 years ago

@katz:

I told you that you should stop talking about the lesbian age of consent thing, and your response was…to keep talking about it.

I shall stop discussing it, but leave one final thought on the subject: Why would UK schools promote it in the ’90s by explaining it as a positive thing if it was a terrible thing?

P.S. I know my last comment may sound trollish, but it’s the best example of separating a man from the title of father that I know of.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

What is it this week with the boring UK trolls? Has there been some kind of manboobz promotion over here?

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Martyn

1. I was not asking for you to explain how you think father’s rights worked. I was positing a hypothetical to katz about how I MIGHT support them if they worked like that, meaning I don’t think they meet my criteria as it stands.

2. I was using father to mean male parent and mother to mean female parent. I should have made that clear. Thus, mothers do not necessarily get pregnant. I feel this is more consistent with how society uses the terms. (Still gender binary though. Aside: If anyone can help me move the conversation more toward inclusivity, but not out of the Advanced 101 I’m trying with Martyn, I’d appreciate it.)

3. I was asking you to address the comments I made here:
http://manboobz.com/2013/02/25/feminism-its-like-letting-your-kids-stay-up-eating-ice-cream/comment-page-3/#comment-262855
There is much more there than father’s rights organizations.

katz
7 years ago

I shall stop discussing it, but leave one final thought on the subject: Why would UK schools promote it in the ’90s by explaining it as a positive thing if it was a terrible thing?

THIS IS NOT STOPPING.

This is continuing to talk. It’s trying to get the last word in, which is childish.

Now, of course you have the right to talk about whatever you want–I can’t make you stop and shouldn’t be able to–but when you keep going on about something people have asked you to drop, that shows entitlement. You think you should get to control the conversation and make it be about whatever topic you want.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

Martyn, I can’t believe I am saying this to someone claiming to have gone to school over a decade ago.

SCHOOLS ARE NOT THE BE-ALL, END-ALL OF TRUTH AND IN MANY CASES PEDDLE BULLSHIT.

katz
7 years ago

But um, guys? Does anyone else smell socks? Maybe it’s just standard fare goalpost shifting…

Nah, this is more Baby’s First Forum Post. Although I’m mystified as how he can read the scattered mess that is MRA blogs and come away with an encyclopedic knowledge of their talking points, but then read feminist blogs and absorb nothing

PS I’m not a lesbian, so I can’t say conclusively, but I’m assuming that referring to lesbian mothers as “female fathers” is really fucking offensive.

katz
7 years ago

Why did my school teach me that condoms didn’t protect against HIV because viruses are smaller than sperm?

It wasn’t until years later that someone pointed out that condoms are watertight and water molecules are way smaller than viruses!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Some Gal — I use penis/uterus-havers (despite those not really being comparable anatomically). I’m not really sure that works when using mother and father to include non-biological parents. That, and that trans* people may not have had surgery and thus be, in a purely biological sense, a penis/uterus-haver, while being a mother with male bits (or father with female bits, eg “the pregnant man”)

Non-binary wise…parents, just stick with parent(s).

And I’m only complicating this, sorry. In the context of a father’s rights discussion, it seems logical to focus on people presenting as male, the laws themselves are binary so I’m not sure how to be inclusive in light of that.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@katz

I assume the female fathers thing is a refernce to birth certificate bullshit. It strikes me as absorbing half of the arguments/compromises on them, which its the source.

katz
7 years ago

Shouldn’t a birth certificate list the bio-father anyway? If you adopt a baby, you don’t put your name on its birth certificate, AFAIK.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“Nah, this is more Baby’s First Forum Post.” — fair enough

“PS I’m not a lesbian, so I can’t say conclusively, but I’m assuming that referring to lesbian mothers as “female fathers” is really fucking offensive.” — me neither, but yeah, even if that’s the legal wording, I’d be disinclined to use that wording.

…and my father is ranting about how psych meds make people dangerous. Apparently unmedicated bipolar is safer than bipolar meds *is on bipolar meds*

Today is just one big fail boating endeavor. Speaking of fail boating! Anyone else seen the plans for a Titanic II? All I can think is Voyage of the Damned (post-season-3 Doctor Who Christmas special)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

katz — I think you can have the birth cert changed to use the adoptive parents’ names. Not sure I can cite that though.

katz
7 years ago

Our version of factions here are the people who always think everyone is a sock and the people who never think anyone is a sock. I’m in the latter camp.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Argenti

I’m sorry we are excluding you (and plenty of other people). I started trying to think how to fix it and only got really complex. Is feminism centering on women an okay way to put it? I feel like it is at least honest given feminism’s fucked up history, but it feels like we could do better. (This seems like we’ll start treading the same ground as the allies vs. feminists terminology discussion, though, so I won’t mind if you want to bow out before it starts.)

Also, *reference and fits. My browser is having a crisis right now. I should restart the kindle, but maybe after the last crash it will work. (Fingers crossed.)

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@katz

I think they are at least trying to get Parent 1 and Parent 2 instead of mother and father. I know they did that (or tried to) for passports and the Christian Rights started howling. I shall go check.

katz
7 years ago

Anyway, regardless of what the form says, it doesn’t make lesbian parents fathers (or gay parents mothers).

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Argenti

…and my father is ranting about how psych meds make people dangerous. Apparently unmedicated bipolar is safer than bipolar meds

If dangerous to self counts, this is pretty true for me. *is at least temporarily on bipolar meds and also reasonably sure that wouldn’t count*

Hugs if you want them. I’d offer you my snack of potato chips in frosting, but I know you don’t dig the salty stuff. 🙂

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Yeah I really don’t want to go down that terminology wormhole again, particularly not the way today’s going. I can’t figure out a concise way to be inclusive besides just referring to parents as, you know, parents. I get that it gives Christian Rights groups a case of the angries, but father and mother are sort of inherently gendered. And regarding binary trans* people, I see no non-transphobic reason not to use father for trans* men and mother for trans* women.

All I’ve got for non-binary parents though is the obvious “parent”. NB: I have no intent on reproducing and thus no strong feelings on this.

As for “lesbian fathers” and “gay mothers” — no, maybe if “gay mothers” is meant to mean “lesbian mothers” but really, considering that even that is a weird intersection with male privilege, I’d personally not use gay to include lesbians (this is why I like queer btw, but ymmv)

I’m also included to use run-on sentences. Sorry.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@katz

From Jan. 2011

Originally the State Department had intended to scrub the terms “father” and “mother” from the applications completely, but after news broke about the change, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton stepped in to make it less controversial by retaining the terms father and mother, while also offering the “parent 1” and “parent 2” terminology.

http://www.lgbt-news.com/2011/01/wording-revised-in-new-gender-neutral.html?m=1

That is what I was thinking of. Apparently, Romney stopped MA from doing mother or parent 1, father or parent 2 wording while he was governor and they had to cross out mother and father and write it in. We finally fixed that 2 years ago.

A move by Massachusetts health regulators to standardize birth certificates means that gay and lesbian couples will no longer have to scratch out the “mother’’ or “father’’ designation on the forms and replace it with “co-parent’’ or “second parent.’’

Instead, new, electronic documents provide two boxes, one labeled “mother/parent,’’ the other “father/parent.’’

http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/articles/2011/02/17/mass_moves_to_standardize_birth_certificates/

It seems like birth certificates are probably a mess in the US, overall.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Argenti

I can’t figure out a concise way to be inclusive besides just referring to parents as, you know, parents.

Another way that father’s rights centers the already-centered, btw. Maybe we need a parents’ rights group that helps everybody with custody issues. They’ll help more women than men because women get screwed over with courts more, but they can help fathers too. That would make me more comfortable than father’s rights.

Martyn Hare
7 years ago

@Argenti Aertheri: Interesting way to look at it. I wonder how it works if someone starts out as mother and then changes gender with full surgery but prior to being a parent was fine with being female…

@Some Gal Not Bored at All:

SCHOOLS ARE NOT THE BE-ALL, END-ALL OF TRUTH AND IN MANY CASES PEDDLE BULLSHIT.

The reason I said that was because schools peddle only what the government deems acceptable to peddle. Aware of that. But a good point nonetheless.

@katz:

I’m going to assume you’re really young, because you sound young.

I’m a 22 year old university student, soon to be 23. Now it’s not an assumption anymore 😉

You can be exceedingly ignorant, yet you’re also completely convinced about the rightness of everything you say. This is a bad combination.

I’m not completely convinced, otherwise I wouldn’t be conversing on here right now. I suffer from a psychological defect. I am compelled to justify what I say, which is ultra useful in academic study and in political debates but it makes me look godawful when making conversation in the real world. What looks like ignorance is really the presentation of a counter argument when invited to address what someone has said. It doesn’t mean I haven’t taken on-board what is said. Due to the limitations of text, I can’t nod my head, say “uh huh” or give some other simple indication that I’ve listened.

I could obviously present my interpretation of the feminist articles linked to since engaging in conversation with people here but that would be slightly redundant when I happen to agree with the content, wouldn’t you agree?

You really, really need to learn to come into a conversation and respectfully listen, rather than barging in and announcing to everyone what you’re sure is right.

There are two issues there which cause that to appear to be the case:

1) I’m commenting on a blog and take a lot of time to carefully consider my writing, therefore by the time I’ve posted, there are already comments I’ve not yet read; which makes it look like I’ve ignored people. It’s an inherent limitation of the medium and I do try to work around it with copy/paste out of notepad and regular refreshes of the page but there’s only so many adjustments I can make before I end up taking hours writing a single comment.

2) I am in no way saying “I’m not wrong”, maybe that’s the impression I’m giving and for that I apologise; would it sound wrong to ask how exactly I can convey that I’m listening? Also, I’m looking at things based on the sources of information I have. I’ve learned a lot from the conversations on here, which has not only clued me in on why my earlier comments received the reactions they did but has also given me a very different perception of feminism as a whole compared to before I started conversing here.

I don’t mean to convey ignorance. But if I don’t have the information to address Some Gal Not Bored at All’s argument and cannot easily gather enough information of decent provenance to address the argument, then all I can say is I cant address it and give out the only information I already have.

This took a long time to write and many page refreshes to check for new comments >_>

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Some Gal — I’m not sure I follow what you mean with the query as to whether temporary bipolar meds would count, but I’m sure danger to self doesn’t count to my father. See, other people must be protected from us crazies (sorry if the term bothers me, I usually only use it self-referentially but not sure how to do that in context). Danger to self is, of course, just a case of “attention seeking” and “use your bootstraps!”

Luckily, the lamictal just tastes horrible, no notable side effects. Klonopin induced my last suicide attempt though, so yeah, know what you mean about unmediated sometimes being safer. (Btw, tums do have enough of their own nasty taste to override the lamictal taste)

And while I appreciate the offer, me and my on again off again eating disorder are having enough of a fit over those brownies my mother made >.<

Martyn Hare
7 years ago

… sorry people, my comment is outdated. I’m not trying to hijack the new conversation :$

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Argenti

I meant danger to self counting. I figured it wouldn’t. I may or may not be staying on bipolar meds because of the danger-to-self side-effect and waiting to see if the fibromyalgia drug (that is the reason I went back on bipolar meds) makes it worth it. So, that is why I said temporary.

I am fine with you calling us crazies. I’ll start trying to remember what happened to those bootstraps… 🙂

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

The total lack of self-awareness would be cute in a kitten. Less so in a 22 year old.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Martyn

Don’t worry about continuing the conversation. I would still love to hear any response you might have. It is okay to admit you don’t know something. (Just please don’t admit you don’t know and proceed to make guesses. I’d rather explain something than do that and counter something.)

Also, you can call me Some Gal if you want. I hope it is okay that I’ve been calling you Martyn.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Oh hi Freud! I meant sorry if the term bothers you. Sorry Some Gal, I apparently just fail today.

“@Argenti Aertheri: Interesting way to look at it. I wonder how it works if someone starts out as mother and then changes gender with full surgery but prior to being a parent was fine with being female…”

Back in 5~ with trans* 101 resources. Short version is that it is exceedingly rare for non-cis people to be “fine” with being their biological gender…that disconnect is kind of important.

Also, starts out a mother, has GRS, but prior to being a parent was fine being female…wtf? Let’s assume for arguments sake that there are trans* people who have GRS (related surgeries) that were once fine with their biological gender, and then had surgery, and then became parents…why would a FtM trans* person decide to be called a mother?!

I’m getting the feeling you’re new to trans* issues, and thus I’ll return with resources.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

I am fine with you calling us crazies. I’ll start trying to remember what happened to those bootstraps…

Crazed Bootstraps was their name before the great band split of ’75, when they became Pelvic Tilt.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Good grief. Even without knowing squat about trans* issues, if someone was “fine with being female” they wouldn’t BE getting reassignment treatment/surgery! It’s not like saying “Nah, don’t feel like wearing a skirt today, I’m gonna pinch the hubby’s jeans.”

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@The Kittehs’

And now I’m crooning those two lines you quoted to myself. Sadly, they aren’t remotely the worst lyrics I’ve ever heard.

I liked Pelvic Tilt’s second album, “Spines Aligned,” but was disappointed in the love song “Kneed You.”

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

All the puns!

I found a trans* 101 good enough that I had to read all of it to confirm it really is that good, and it is — http://www.ohio.edu/lgbt/resources/trans101.cfm

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

@Martyn, before you continue blithely creating hypothetical scenarios, just stop. What for you is just an interesting abstract idea may be the deeply-felt reality and experience of someone’s life, here.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“It’s not like saying “Nah, don’t feel like wearing a skirt today, I’m gonna pinch the hubby’s jeans.””

Surgery wise, yeah, that’s entirely correct. Trans* related things wise…generally presenting as female, feeling like presenting male today, grab the hubby’s jeans… Though I’ve seen more generally presenting male/androgynous, feeling female today, grab a skirt (probably because skirts are coded feminine while pants are generally seen as gender neutral)

I’m above trans* 101 here and going to can it. I feel like more complicated things will just confuse the simpler things. (Also, I’m jealous of Mr. K’s gender neutral heels!)

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

I liked Pelvic Tilt’s second album, “Spines Aligned,” but was disappointed in the love song “Kneed You.”

Stop makin’ me laugh, my osteo did all of that last night!

Ow
Ow
Ow

Argenti – I’ll drop it too, I’m in “I know nuthin’ and should can it” territory here as well.

I think Mr K is happy having a partner shorter than him now. He just wears half-inch heels these days!

Cowboy boots, mmm …

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Is it wrong that I find the idea of a French king in cowboy boots to be absolutely hilarious?

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Depends … are you thinking “with jeans and knitwear” or a la the Naked Cowboy? 😉

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

::Sir, sitting in chair, stretches leg, looks contemplatively at boot, asks “Why is this hilarious?”

SEE HE’S READING THIS SITE

😉

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@The Kittehs’

I am afraid he may always be naked on a horse after the naked statue discussion. (Can’t see anything, blocked by the horse fwiw.) I may have to slide some cowboy boots on my mental image now.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Um, the former, thinking the latter about your partner would just be rude!

And what’s so funny? Cowboy boots are basically *the* status marker for poor southerners, then again, the classist American view on cowboy boots may be culturally limited. Either way, could always say that they’re “ironic”, it’d work with “hobo chic” being a runway thing (last year? the year before?)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Whoops, sorry Some Gal, wasn’t trying to imply that you’re rude. Just my personal definition of modesty there!

Some Gal Not Bored at All

Um, the former, thinking the latter about your partner would just be rude!

Thanks, Argenti! 🙂

Don’t make me go to the rude corner! All the trolls there will eat me!

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

I am afraid he may always be naked on a horse after the naked statue discussion. (Can’t see anything, blocked by the horse fwiw.) I may have to slide some cowboy boots on my mental image now.

Dammit, you owe me a cup of coffee now! 😀

See, cowboy boots don’t have those social markers here, except maybe giving C&W fans the side-eye for being SO immersed in something so American. Apart from that, to me they’re just good-looking boots (woefully uncomfortable for me, but they weren’t designed for walking). Plus they’re more or less the descendents of the heavier-duty riding boots from Mr’s time, so they have that connection.

Hey, I don’t mind if people have naughty thoughts about him. I’ve quite a few friends who’d like to jump his bones if he were available. (He’s not bothered, either – bemused, but not bothered!)

Martyn Hare
7 years ago

@Some Gal: I’m fine with whatever you wish to call me 🙂 I should probably do some more research on the area of father’s rights; since all I know is about the major organisations and what they promote but I do not know enough about the potential sociological effects or how the aims of father’s rights groups would affect feminism or the society-driven gender binary directly.

@Argenti Aertheri: Thanks for the link. The glossary of terms alone is very useful (I now know the inoffensive term for someone with both sex organs).

@titianblue: Okay, sure. If what I’ve said has caused any offence or upset then I apologise whole-heartedly. I would like to know how does one discuss unfamiliar issues without hypothetical examples or a theory as a reference point? I’m more than up for finding a less offensive or a more sensitive way to discuss different subjects while still receiving answers that satisfy the original idea/question.

katz
7 years ago

I should probably do some more research on the area of father’s rights; since all I know is about the major organisations and what they promote but I do not know enough about the potential sociological effects or how the aims of father’s rights groups would affect feminism or the society-driven gender binary directly.

Please don’t do that research at MRA sites, mkay? You’re at a university; consult the library.

howardbann1ster
7 years ago

@Argenti: after the election Owly melted down. For a while he was posting some real poison, and then David stopped letting his posts through, and then he gave up on manboobz.

I didn’t think he was capable of that.

cloudiah
7 years ago

If you’re willing to consider a critical, scholarly view of the father’s rights movement, I would look for articles by M. (Molly) Dragiewicz. She’s written a lot on the topic for peer reviewed journals.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Owly actually gave up harassing the regulars? Like, for good? That’s both amazing and unbelievable, but let’s not jinx it!

He isn’t like, idk, off firebombing courthouses or anything?

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Martyn

I do not know enough about the potential sociological effects or how the aims of father’s rights groups would affect feminism or the society-driven gender binary directly.

The sociological effects might be hard to find, but good luck! I would be very interested in what you find. You might be able to make some guesses from the historical instances where men were given sole custody of children most of the time.

Feminism is very much in favor of both (or all applicable) parents being involved in their children’s lives and sharing that responsibility equitably even after changes in the relationship(s) between parents. As society changes ideas of mothers and fathers and what makes a parent, courts will also change. They have changed a lot in the last 50 years.

MRA sites regularly exaggerate (or make up) statistics. Check their claims out for yourself. At least in the US, most men who want custody, get it. Many men don’t want custody of their children. MRAs include men who didn’t want custody when they count men denied custody. These differences matter.