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Reading through some of the stranger comments from MRAs and PUAs and other manospherean types I often find myself wondering to what degree this “new misogyny” reaches beyond the internet. I don’t mean old-fashioned misogyny and sexism, which are obviously fairly common offline. I mean the elaborate misogynistic ideologies we discuss here – the “feminism runs the world,” “all women are hypergamous bitches who will dump you in a second for an alpha,” “we hunted the mammoth to feed you” kind of stuff.
I run across much less of this offline than on, though the people I hang out with aren’t exactly a representative sampling of the general public.
So I’m asking you, dear readers, to tell me a bit about your own experiences. Do you run across MRAs/PUAs in the real world on a regular or even an irregular basis? Where (online or off) did you first encounter MRAs and/or PUAs? What aspects of what we might call the manosphere ideology are the most common offline? If it seems less common offline, is this because the beliefs are not that widespread, or is it that people are less willing to say the kind of horrific misogynistic shit they say online to other people face to face?
Thoughts?
“That’s what I was picturing, an OwlyStripper with decorative manacles, forcing educational pamphlets about the New World Order into the hands of bemused customers.”
now that is painfully funny.
6. Because women created the idea of male strippers in order to get men all riled up and then STILL refuse to have sex with them.
7.Because the fact that female strippers have a more fun and colorful range of footwear options is misandry.
Logic can be learned without formal training; it really is just about connecting things up with a rational.
I did a blogpost y’all might like; I’ve been dwelling on Identity and ran across a cool blogpost that altered how I’m thinking. http://primdolls.blogspot.com/2013/02/identity-and-location.html
Sorry to interject something off-topic for this post, but this is too good not to mention and may help explain MRAs in general. Over on the Spearhead, Price is discussing “The Feminist Mystique,” – “Although I haven’t read the book, it apparently stresses the need for women to engage in work outside the home, which is a basic Communist tenet.”
Luckily I don’t interact with people enough, but the boyfriend does. For starters, he’s has a very soft/high voice for a guy. And for some reason the headsets at his work increase that, so he is often mistaken as a woman despite the very manly name. He loves coming home to tell me about the MRAs and PUAs that he has to deal with over the phone.
A couple days ago a guy called to complain that the equipment he was sent didn’t match the decor of him home. As soon as the bf starts explaining that this isn’t a tech support issue, the guy turned on the “charm.” First the negging, “It’s great that they let you girls answer the phones too, do they pay you as much as the actual tech support guys?” Then the bragging, “My house cost a million dollars. I’m very wealthy and well known. You would never have to work again if you were with me.” And finally, anger, “That’s the problem with you women, you hate the good guys who talk to you but jump all over every thug that comes your way!” All while he’s calmly explaining that he’s a man and this phone call needs to end. Unfortunately, he’s not allowed to hang up on a customer for any reason.
“Although I haven’t read the book” – that’s a pretty good metaphor for their entire movement. I don’t really know anything about the subject I’m about to rant about, but dammit I have opinions!
So much to respond to here!
I agree that the nice guy stuff is everywhere, and it’s not new — I had some nice guy qualities back in my high school/college/grad school days — but it seems more angry and vociferous now, particularly on the incel end of the spectrum. I mean, I suppose I felt a bit “incel” in high school, but I didn’t embrace that as an identity, nor did I when I had “dry spells” later. And I certainly didn’t start writing manifestos calling for the government to provide me with a girlfriend.
The flip side of this stuff being more prevalent these days is that the people saying it’s bullshit are also more prevalent and this may help some “nice guys” get that out of their system sooner.
And the PUA stuff is, if not everywhere, fairly common. I don’t get much of it, but various women I know have had guys approach them in PUA-ish ways (or at the very least “neg” them). “Negging” may well end up being the biggest PUA legacy to society at large. Too bad that most negs are so uncreative.
I’ve started imagining a new sort of neg that starts off like a regular neg, then kicks it up a notch with an unexpected coda.
Nice dress! Did you make it yourself (regular neg) …. out of garbage? (bam!)
Bewilderness, what?! I think I need a few more details.
And Ranter, that’s an amazing story.
And hi to the new commenters!
More thoughts when I can think straight.
Oh, man, I need to go read that Price post.
No MRA in “real life” so far, thank goodness. Twinges of Nice Guy beliefs here and there among people I know. Note that the only time I came across it in someone I was actually close with, it a) did not involve any of the “women owe me sex for friendship” crap, only the “most women like assholes/if you are too nice, women will not want you” stuff, and b) the person did not conclude from those beliefs that she should stop being nice to people, she simply got worried/resigned that she would never find a girlfriend. Take note, Nice Guys: even people with those beliefs can act like decent human beings! It’s not an irresistible ticket to asshole-ville! (And yes, women can hold Nice Guy beliefs too. Surprise, trolls who somehow believe that we all claim that All Women Are Perfect Always!)
I have (knowingly) encountered one PUA so far, and I was just SO CONFUSED. At the time, I had never heard of PUA or negging. He started out just normally chatting me up/flirting, and then suddenly, boom, sarcastic insult with a smile. And I was just, what the hell? It’s obvious this guy is trying to get with me, so what on Earth is this? Never mind the validity of his insult, I wasn’t even saying he was wrong, but why would you drop that on someone you’re obviously trying to pick up? I even ran it by my friends to see if it made any more sense to them – who would think this was a good idea when trying to get in someone’s pants? I thought it was the most hilariously absurd, misguided oddity.
…And then, much later, I found out about PUA and realized that this is indeed A Thing. And there isn’t just one deluded fool who thinks this is a valid strategy, it’s a whole cottage industry. ::boggles::
That’s exactly the response that PUA usually provokes. First, “huh?”, because seriously, why would you do that when you’re trying to get laid, you idiot? And then irritation if the behavior persists, or amusement if you know what they’re trying to do and you have a mean sense of humor.
I don’t encounter Nice Guys/PUAs (I…guess…? I don’t know, I don’t think pick-up artistry is really a thing in the UK the way it is for you guys, but I still definitely recognise some of the concepts as things that men have tried to use on me) that often anymore, because frankly I look a lot more dykey now than I did when I was seventeen – I’ve got the short hair and the piercings and the tattoo and the leather jacket – and when I’m at university I mostly hang out with leftie queer types. I do have some gems from my high school days, though. One time I was waiting outside my best friend’s house (which sounds creepy until I mention that I was supposed to be there and she was, in fact, late to her own house) and a gentleman took it upon himself to hit on me. Repeatedly. By walking up and down the street and pausing by me each time to ask again, even though our first conversation went like this:
“So, will you go out with me?”
“Sorry, no.”
“Why not?!”
“Because I’m a lesbian.”
“But…but I’m really attracted to you!”
…well, that changes everything!
I have a couple of friends who used to be total Nice Guys, and although I’m honestly quite glad I didn’t cut them off – I love the people they are now – if I’d known as a teenager what I know now, I probably would have stopped talking to them. These people knew from the get-go that I was gay, because I always mention it, even though I feel kind of bad about doing that – I don’t want everything to be about my sexuality, but I’m terrible at knowing when I’m being hit on and I’ve been accused of leading people on several times when I genuinely thought we were just having a conversation. At least if I can say “well, no, I told him in the first five minutes that I was a big ol’ queer” I have something to set against that. Which kind of sucks in and of itself, but there you go.
Anyway, the point is, they knew it wasn’t going to happen! And yet one of them still took it upon himself to drunk-dial me from Austria and tell me in detail about how it was his mission to make me straight. And then make me go out with him. (Yes, he did say he’d make me.) Unfortunately for him, his method of “making me straight” was to say things like “you’re not really gay, you know, you just think you are”, and that just made me roll my eyes and go talk to someone else for a while. This dude still occasionally has his moments – one memorable conversation was about how he doesn’t like feminists because they all hate men – but he’s also pretty willing to listen to disagreement, which is why that conversation ended in “damnit, Rei, I hate it when you’re right”.
Oh! And there was the guy who stalked me for a few months because of reasons. But this comment is already pretty long.
p.s. I am extremely jealous of all of your cats.
Oh, and pillowinhell: I know your comment was pages ago, but I’m not sure how much “hookup culture” is really that misogynistic vs. portrayed that way by suspect sources who don’t like the idea that women are having casual sex / cannot imagine that women might actually enjoy casual sex.
(Please note, I don’t mean to say in any way that you are like that, heaven forfend!! Just that, if someone is not personally familiar with hookup culture, they might get a skewed impression of it from the ways it gets portrayed in the media a lot.)
My college had a flourishing “hookup culture” that I enthusiastically participated in, and it never involved me pleasing the boner but not getting anything in return. Sure, some boners were pleased in the process, but so were my own bits, and my own pleasure was always an equal concern.
This is not to say that there aren’t subsets of hookup culture that are all about boner-pleasing and utterly unconcerned with women’s pleasure. Just that this is not the universal hookup culture experience. I dunno, maybe I’m just burned by one pearl-clutching article too many about how hookup culture and women voluntarily having casual sex is “ruining the sexual marketplace” and making the world terrible for us poor women because now we can’t use the promise of sex to coerce men into relationships.
(Also important note, while I believe that women should have the right to enjoy casual sex, it’s just as cool if women – or men – would rather not! I do agree that in many circles there’s increased pressure to be sexually active, and that is Not Cool. Seriously, the words “pressured to” and “sex” should just never appear in the same sentence, whether the intervening words involve “have” or “not have”.)
I’ve only encountered MRA’s on HuffPo. In real life I don’t even recognize sexism.
HuffPo seems to be swarming with MRAs. That’s mostly why I stopped reading it. Didn’t know the term then, but the place was crawling with misogyny and the moderators did nothing about it (though they were quick to delete comments telling misogynists to pull their heads in).
Ages back but re: PUAs and their scripts – this is one of the more laughable things about them. It’s not just the stupidity of thinking insulting someone is a way to get sex, it’s the fact that these supposedly terribly smart, witty fellows have to use a script to do it. If that doesn’t say “loser with a personality bypass,” what does?
It also takes a lot of sexism to believe that all women are so fundamentally alike that the same scripts will work regardless of which specific women you’re talking to. There really is an art to chatting people up, but the thing is, a bit part of it is being able to tune in to people’s personalities and establish a rapport. You can’t establish a rapport with the cardboard cutout with SEXY LADY written on it that lives in your head, and pre-planned lines don’t work on real people.
I’m now picturing PUAs with literal cardboard cutout SEXY LADIES.
The possibilities for paper cuts are … interesting.
Hi guys! First of all, anyone seen weeboy around? He hasn’t checked his last PM on the forum and I haven’t seen him in the comments. If you’re reading, message me! Hope you’re OK!
Re: MRAs and real life. I am not a good reference point either, being a loudmouthed feminist all of my life and at least very good at faking self confidence – plus not being particularly into the club thing, ever, or any stereotypical forms of socialising. I certainly have never encountered the degree of un-reality you see on the MRM.
But I do feel that the sullen, push-back misogyny we see a lot is becoming stronger. In a broad, subtle sense, of what is expected and what will fly, I could swear there’s more casual misogyny going on than there used to be.
My ponyfag friend made me think being a feminist was a bad thing when his reaction to me being a feminist was the same as 4chan/pol/
Hey, Hrovitnir!
Have you been reading the site today? Some vet advice was needed, and now I’m trying to remember which thread it was on.
This is the question I was looking for.
http://manboobz.com/2013/02/17/crystal-bawling-spearheaders-look-forward-to-an-apocalyptic-future-in-which-the-ladies-finally-get-their-comeuppance/comment-page-6/#comment-259463
@gaijinrei
I am sorry to hear that kind of crap you put up with is still with us. I had a friend in college back in the late 70s telling some us her conversations with strangers often went like this:
…
No thank you.
…
I am a lesbian.
…
I have a girlfriend.
…
She is standing right next to me.
…
Do you really want me to kill you?
I wuz kinda hoping this behavior would disappear over time…apparently not.
At first I wondered if this was off topic, but then realized…it’s always time for kitties!
I’m not a lesbian but a friend once told a guy that she and I were lesbians in an attempt to make him piss off. It went like this.
Her : We are lesbians, go away.
Him : I don’t mind.
(Doesn’t go away)
The men on my dad’s side of the family can be somewhat MRAish in their views, but only one really expressed it to my face (my dad’s cousin – I refuse to acknowledge the jerk is related to me). My father even warned him he was in for a world of hurt if he kept it up. I let him have it.
The bastard is in jail now and I hope he stays there for the rest of his days. He did something unforgiveable even to the men on that side of the family who might have shared his views and even if he ever gets out, he’d not be welcome anywhere in my family.
PAU’s – met tons of them when I was younger. Not so much now since I no longer am the nubile sweet young thing they used to hit on all the time. Some of the older fellows who knew me in my youth sometimes try it on me now, but I think the look on my face when they do says it all. I mean, I’m almost 50 and if I didn’t fall for it back when I was 20, what makes any of them think I’m going to fall for it now? Besides, they come across as desperate and pathetic, neither of which I am. (Besides, the love of my life says I rocked it at 22, when we first met, and I still rock it at nearly 50!)
Why do I associate with them, you might ask? I don’t, but some of the circles I travel in make it hard to avoid them sometimes.
You clearly have no idea what Game is. Game doesn’t purport to work all of the time, because it won’t. All it does is provide a guided shot in the dark, so the man has a fighting chance of receiving a nice tasty vag at the end of the night.