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Reading through some of the stranger comments from MRAs and PUAs and other manospherean types I often find myself wondering to what degree this “new misogyny” reaches beyond the internet. I don’t mean old-fashioned misogyny and sexism, which are obviously fairly common offline. I mean the elaborate misogynistic ideologies we discuss here – the “feminism runs the world,” “all women are hypergamous bitches who will dump you in a second for an alpha,” “we hunted the mammoth to feed you” kind of stuff.
I run across much less of this offline than on, though the people I hang out with aren’t exactly a representative sampling of the general public.
So I’m asking you, dear readers, to tell me a bit about your own experiences. Do you run across MRAs/PUAs in the real world on a regular or even an irregular basis? Where (online or off) did you first encounter MRAs and/or PUAs? What aspects of what we might call the manosphere ideology are the most common offline? If it seems less common offline, is this because the beliefs are not that widespread, or is it that people are less willing to say the kind of horrific misogynistic shit they say online to other people face to face?
Thoughts?
Gods, Viscaria, that’s horrible. What would he have done if she’d screamed? I know I’d be screaming and fighting him off if a strange man came up and hugged (read: assaulted) me.
@Kittehs: He said he talked to her for a minute and found out it was her birthday so he initiated the hug by calling it a “birthday hug.” Which I’m sure he thinks means she was okay with it, but I think means he put too much social pressure on her for her to do something like scream. It would have been much easier for her to protest if he’d just pounced on her.
It says something about MRAs that I view that as garden-variety misogyny and not MRA-level misogyny. Like, how bad are those guys that I automatically think “this is too mainstream for them.”
OT speaking of ebil bodies – I took a chance wearing that multi-coloured tunic with black leggings yest. No, butt didn’t show, but cor, did I feel exposed! 😀
On what Cat was saying, I spend very little time around men under 25, but you know where Nice Guy attitudes are rampant? Indie bands. In fact, the indie/alternative scene in general. Sit down some time and actually listen to the lyrics of some of that stuff – it’s full of wah women won’t date me because they’re evil and they enjoy making men suffer and some day I will have my revenge crap.
I mean, there’s a band called Pretty Girls Make Graves. I eye-roll every time I see their name.
@Viscaria – your coworker would have gotten one of two responses from me. If I was in a good mood, he would have gotten his arms around me and heard in his ear a very calm, faux-friendly voice saying “If you don’t get off me right now, I will do [insert something awful and gory out of a horror novel] to you.” Probably something involving ears and their potential detachability.
In a bad mood, he’d have been stiff-armed off and shoved away before he even got his arms around me.
OT – hey look! I’ve got little pics now! See Rory Paws and his paintbrush!
(And yes, I know it’s a Smiths reference. Still dumb.)
Viscaria – even more gross, in its own way: finding the flimsiest of excuses to pressure a woman into that, cornering her in effect so she’d look Nasty and Ungracious if she didn’t allow a complete stranger to hug her. It really says how we’re socialised to comply with men invading our body space, doesn’t it?
::pukes::
oh lord, you’re right that the nice guy attitude is everywhere. another acquaintance of mine wrote this whole article about his own struggle with it: http://www.progressiveerotica.com/articles/ted/nice-guys-finish-shower
He almost gets it but… I don’t know what still bothers me about the article. I guess think it’s absurd that it’s even a question in the first place.
I know a toooooon of Nice Guys(tm). The good thing is, I know a lot less of them than I did, say, 3 years ago? As my dude acquaintances are maturing and becoming confident in themselves a lot of them are leaving a bunch of those attitudes behind. I’ve even had a couple friends apologize to me for blaming me/women for their datelessness back in high school or University.
That outfit sounds adorable!
I’m pretty huggy and I’d still be really annoyed if a stranger insisted on giving me a “birthday hug”. Manipulative people push my piss off buttons like nothing else.
@Ellex – I just saw your kitty! 🙂 Isn’t Rory Paws one of the deadly implements you have in your kitchen?
I really hate being touched by strangers. Mostly it comes in the form of someone next to me on the train brushing against my side while I’m sitting with my arms folded. I know it’s not intentional but it irks the hell out of me – “Keep your fucking arms to yourself!” is my feeling about it. The idea of some presumptuous creature putting his arms around me (which NOBODY except Mr K has the right to do) makes me go into thoughts of knee, groin, rapid and painful contact with. I doubt I would, but I’d want to.
He was kind of doing the same thing to me, albeit in a much less serious way, by the way he told the story! He was being funny and cordial by regaling us with his exploits, and I was Nasty and Ungracious by (mildly, jokingly) expressing my distaste.
@Viscaria – thank you! 🙂 I don’t remember if you saw it, but it’s this tunic. Only trouble is the back’s shorter than the front, and I spent all day trying to make sure it hadn’t crept up. I should sew some heavy lace or something around the hem.
@Ellex, your kitty is a cutie!
I’ve known more than a few Nice Guys and have encountered PUAs in the wild when I single.
I work with a couple early 30s hipster doofuses who have some latent Nice Guy/semi-anti-feminist attitudes going on. Sorry boys, I outrank you.
OT but this is super cute.
I don’t understand why a cat would need to be bathed regularly, though, unless the owner had an allergy to dander. I tend to think of cats as self-cleaning.
@Viscaria – tell him he’ll meet my Nasty and Ungracious knee if he ever crosses my path and tries that stunt.
Jokingly, of course.
Gods I hate men like that. I feel like he’s a fucking predator just reading about it from thousands of miles away.
The one I hear all the time, even from my liberal friends, is, “If feminism is about equality, why is it called FEMinism, isn’t that saying women are better?” or something to that effect. It’s bullshit light, certainly a far cry from rape apology, but I’ll wager that a lot of MRAs started out with softer statements.
That is one amazingly cooperative kitty! Lord, I’d be in Emergency getting blood transfusions if I tried that with any of our lot. 😀
I <3 hellkell. 🙂
Kittehs’ – Rory is indeed one of the deadly implements…in my entire house. He’s young, full of vim, vigor and vitality, and he loves to chomp. He’s the bite-iest cat I’ve ever had, and the odd thing is that it’s clearly meant to be affectionate and playful.
Tigwell is older and much more sedate, but Rory has been good for him. Tubby Tig has lost some weight and has been perkier since we got Rory.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/ellex42/pets/DSCI0142_zps809df1fd-1_zps774f9197.jpg
Actually, they’re a couple of scaredy-cats. They run and hide whenever a stranger comes in the house.
11 years of taking the bus to work mostly cured me of my dislike of physical contact. A sort of desensitization, if you like. It still bugged the hell out of me when someone would sit or stand too close when they had plenty of room, though.
it probably helps that I’m notoriously oblivious to people flirting with me. And I did my best to spend my time on public transportation with my nose in a book, which helps with the obliviousness.
Bath time kitty is so chill, most of the cats I know would be all I KILL YOU.
Obviously the whole sexual-assault aspect makes unwanted cross-gender hugs particularly bad, but IME unwanted same-gender hugs (well, woman-woman) are far more common and much harder to deal with. If it’s a guy hugging a woman, there’s at least the idea that you might find it uncomfortably sexual or inappropriate, but I find there’s no good way at all to explain that you don’t want another woman to touch you*.
And ugh, so many times I’ve had other women touch me in unwanted ways. Hugs, back rubs, surprise neck squeezes from behind, rubbing and squeezing hands…
*Of course same-gender hugging or touching could be inappropriately sexual, but it’s not generally societally interpreted that way.
My public transport strategy for avoiding annoying people is headphones on and stare out the window. I will turn the music off if someone actually needs help with something, but I’ve been known to just point at the headphones if a dude seems to have mistaken the train for a singles bar.
Thanks, Kitteh’s.
Ellex, your kitties are adorable! I could never give any of mine baths, my health insurance isn’t THAT good.