The Man Boobz Pledge Drive continues. See here for more details, or click below to donate.
And now back to our regularly scheduled post:
Reading through some of the stranger comments from MRAs and PUAs and other manospherean types I often find myself wondering to what degree this “new misogyny” reaches beyond the internet. I don’t mean old-fashioned misogyny and sexism, which are obviously fairly common offline. I mean the elaborate misogynistic ideologies we discuss here – the “feminism runs the world,” “all women are hypergamous bitches who will dump you in a second for an alpha,” “we hunted the mammoth to feed you” kind of stuff.
I run across much less of this offline than on, though the people I hang out with aren’t exactly a representative sampling of the general public.
So I’m asking you, dear readers, to tell me a bit about your own experiences. Do you run across MRAs/PUAs in the real world on a regular or even an irregular basis? Where (online or off) did you first encounter MRAs and/or PUAs? What aspects of what we might call the manosphere ideology are the most common offline? If it seems less common offline, is this because the beliefs are not that widespread, or is it that people are less willing to say the kind of horrific misogynistic shit they say online to other people face to face?
Thoughts?
Seconded!
/is 50.
😛
To return to the original topic (Hi! I’m back, at least for this post), I believe I’ve talked about my ‘MRA’ friend on here before. I met him in my first year of college, and he would frequently talk about how unfair the world was to men. He didn’t consider himself an MRA (at least he never used that word), but he had many of the same talking points: Most women who are raped deserve it, men should be able to force their wives to get an abortion, complaining about affirmative action, men can understand abstract thinking but women can’t, women were never oppressed, etc. He would have seemed normal to most people- quiet, shy and painfully polite.
Before that, having lived in Switzerland and the US, I very rarely (never?) encountered such thinking, but then again I was young, very introverted, and not at all interested in gender issues. I did meet a few very conservative religious people, but I don’t consider them to be MRAs, just traditional.
I’m thinking most of the people who are mocked here are not as easily recognizable as we might like to think. And yeah, I think it’s getting worse. I don’t really know why, but it is. One of my friends who is a part-time tutor at the university recently told me that she and the other tutors have decided to drop feminism as a theory and replace it with something else, because it caused too much controversy and they got tired of the hassle. And we’re not allowed to use the word feminism anymore, just gender studies (which I am more in favour of anyway, but that’s another story). It just scares me a bit how much effect social pressure like that can have.
Nice to see so many new people, by the way. I really like your gravatar, too, Kitteh’s Unpaid Help. Looks just like my old cat!
Hi Carleyblue, nice to see you back! 🙂
My gravatar (for the moment, lol) is Maddie, with her great friends The Shooz.
Thank you everyone, for your support. It means a lot. I did start seeing a therapist last year, and it really helped. I had to stop going because my husband’s job moved us to Europe, but I am doing much better. It was hard, especially before I married and moved away, because the guy who assulted me was a friend, so when I came out about it nearly a year after it had happened, he had no problems convincing the friends we shared that I was lying. I didn’t really stay friends with those people afterwards.
But now I’ve gotten help, my husband is very supportive, and my 2 year old daughter helps me through the tough days by being her adorable self.
@kitteh
She just told him she’d take care of it and sent him on his way. I did get promoted to cashier a few months later, though I don’t think that was a response to crazy shouting old man.
Drst, you got eyestrain huh? Yeah, between the pattern and the fabric I can see that.
Me, I just go cross eyed for a bit. Usually I have several projects on the go for embroidery, depending on my mood and how much concentration it takes. This black work sampler is gonna be heavy on the “shut up and don’t bug me factor” because it does take close attention to detail. What I can’t figure out is why I like black work, but not cross stitch? Makes no sense to me.
I remember the time I had just started a new job at a large hardware store and I overheard an older man in the break room claim that the white man was now the most oppressed type of person. I couldn’t even react, I was so shocked to hear this in person. I hate when that happens and wish I would’ve told him what was what. But sometimes you just can’t believe your ears.
And yeah, met plenty of “nice guys” back when I was in the dating pool who were not actually nice at all.
I haven’t dealt with many for real-real MRAs while out and about.
Garden variety, sexist assholes? Absolutely. And PUAs? They must be breeding with each other because I swear, every time I’m out now there’s some jack ass trying to “neg” me and/or push boundaries and invade my personal space. And, while I’ve always been used to that sort of thing happening, I feel like it was noticeable because of the relative infrequency.
Men hitting on me – yeah, sure, fine. But this current thing of stupidity coupled with persistence feels fairly new. So… yeah. Possibly more PUAs then before. I have been accused of “friend-zoning”.
I think maybe the reason we’re noticing PUAs more than the other categories of sexist idiots is that their behavior is so jarringly odd. As in, there’s a way that most guys act when they’re trying to pick you up, and you’re used to that, and then the PUA guys come along and their behavior is just so baffling and counter-intuitive that that you tend to remember them in a way that you might not remember, say, the guy mumbling misogynist crap at the bus stop.
@Some Gal
I nodded off in front of the computer last night…I need to stop doing that. I’m glad you mentioned fibromyalgia, because I was thinking for some reason that you had rheumatoid arthritis. Unless you have that too, in which case, ouch.
Try googling homeopathy and fibromyalgia. There are a number of different homeopathic remedies recommended for fibromyalgia, including arnica. There are also companies that make fibromyalgia combination remedies.
Here’s a website that list common remedies for fibromyalgia and the specific symptoms that go with each remedy:
http://www.truestarhealth.com/Notes/2225004.html
Here’s the thing about homeopathy: if the remedy you take is not the right remedy for you, it will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Also, you cannot overdose. If it doesn’t work, don’t take more, because it will do nothing. If a kid accidentally takes some, don’t worry. It will do nothing. If your pet gets into it and eats it, don’t worry. It will do nothing.
Well…if your pet (or kid) eats the cream, gel or salve, that’s not so great. But if your pet (or kid) eats the pellets that you take internally, don’t worry about it.
If you take the pellets, you put them under your tongue and let them dissolve. A lot of practitioners advise not eating or drinking anything other than water for 15 minutes before and after taking them. Or you can dissolve the pellets in water and drink the water, too.
The thing about the momentary pain is that it’s an indication that the remedy is working. It is definitely momentary, and it definitely goes away. Some people don’t get that reaction at all, some people only get it sometimes and only with certain remedies. I only get it with minor burns (I’m really great at scorching my knuckles with the curling iron).
A lot of people and websites will tell you that there’s no scientific evidence that homeopathy works. That’s because it’s not a chemical reaction. All I can tell you is that there’s a mountain of anecdotal evidence, legitimate scientific trials that have shown it to work, and my own experience is that it’s pretty damn effective. Also, homeopathic remedies are prescribed according to your symptoms rather than your diagnosis, so read the descriptions of what each remedy is for carefully.
I hope this helps!
This right here, for a start. When someone’s telling you they feel, questioning it and trying to make them justify their feelings is a straight-up asshole move.
You make an excellent point. I just… I have enough guy-friends to accept the idea that generally, and certainly in social settings, men can feel the pressure of pursuit. Yes, there are men who are approached by women (I initiated flirtation and approach with my man) but I’m enough of a realist to acknowledge that while great strides have been made, heteronormatively, women often initiate flirting while men often initiate contact/conversation. Fine.
But the way the PUAs go about it… the straight up cold-calling and obnoxiousness. I mean, for people who often approach human interaction as if it should be as cut and dry as a financial transactions – I just want to sit them down with a screening of Glengarry Glen Ross and make them watch it until they understand.
Cold-calling is a good metaphor. Thing is, you can just hang up on a cold-caller – it’s a lot harder to get away from a really persistent horny dude at a bar. And just plain horny dude I’m usually fine with, but horny dude who keeps throwing out weird, nonsensical comments and ignoring all my not-digging-it signals? Nobody likes being on the receiving end of a really aggressive sales pitch, especially when they just want to chill and have a drink with their friends.
This.
Raving, feminist, bitch that I am, I’m actually pretty friendly when turning men down under most circumstances. And even in settings that I consider inappropriate, if approached with a reasonable amount of respect and courtesy I can generally respond in kind. But these PUA guys are so fucking obnoxious it’s like they want to force you to embarass them so they can validate their own preconceived notions of how awful women are.
I’m just trying to get a martini.
I like flirting. Flirting is great. Bullying and manipulation disguised as flirting? Not so much.
I think the worst I’ve ever had to deal with is this one very drunk guy. In the time it took for my friends and I to walk into the bar and receive the drinks we ordered we noticed one particular drunk making the rounds of all the women, falling all over them and groping away while hitting on them. Then he spotted me, who was sitting with my back turned to everything but my drink. He pushed his face into mine while grinding into me and said “oh, you have the legs of a dancer”. I was wearing a floor length a line skirt. So I turned to him and said “No. I have the legs of a kick boxer. Care for a demonstration?” While picking his hand off my breast and giving his pinky finger a nasty twist to make him back up.
He tried hitting on me a couple more times, but kept out of arms reach. And no one wanted to toss the guy out. Needless to say, it wasn’t a bar my friends and I returned to.
Oh, I love flirting; I’m a huge flirt. Finding the balance between friendly flirtation and propriety is always a challenge when I’m in a serious relationship. Fortunately, my man is a big flirt too so it works out.
This spreading PUA foolishness is not flirting. It is not sexy, it isn’t fun, it isn’t intriguing and -I’ve said it before- it remains a complete mystery to me that the men who fall for this bullshit don’t recognize it for the snake-oil, hucksterism that it is.
Maybe they have a secret kink for having women swear at them and occasionally douse them in gin and tonic?
Because being PUA is like being drunk. It becomes a convenient excuse to behave like an asshole and you have an excuse that’s supposed to be forgivable by society at large. What’s more, its supposed to elucidate sympathy along the lines of “well, he must be pretty lonely” “its hard to get shot down so much” and “oh just overlook it, he just doesn’t understand women too well”.
pillowinhell: I find blackwork to be more useful, and varied/interesting to look at.
hellkell:This right here, for a start. When someone’s telling you they feel, questioning it and trying to make them justify their feelings is a straight-up asshole move.
I’m sorry. I am trying to see what I did that made it seem I was being disrespectful. I can’t avoid it if I don’t know what it is.
And yes, I probably should have phrased the question better.
@Nitram
(re: sheltered)I just considered it sheltered because I don’t interact with people much, I dropped out of school a couple years ago before I was diagnosed and my only interaction outside family is mostly at karate or a couple short two hour classes somewhere else.
And you’re co-worker…ugh. Glad to hear you have support with your hubby though 🙂
@ellex Seconding (or whatevering by this point ;p) glad for the glove recommendation. I showed them to my sister (who has bad joints) and she thinks they might help 🙂
@carleyblue eww the guy in college. *shudder* Mostly on the deserve-to-be-raped and forced to get abortion. (those one’s I’ve luckily never heard in real life)Sounds terrible interacting with that guy. *shudder* Not really adding much except complaing… *blushes*
(Every time I comment here I feel like I’m butting in. I should probably be less shy, but in the off chance I am bugging anyone please tell me).
Pecunium, I think you’re right on the black work thing. I like how small modifications of a simple pattern can give graduated shading diferences, or the appearance of a cross hatched effect. That and the patterns within patterns thing.
I finished a blackwork butterfly on forty count linen not too long ago. Good thing it was a relatively small project because headache due to very fine thread. I want to do drawn thread embroidery, but I’m not going to start that until I have a magnifyer. I can’t imagine trying to remove one thread at a time without being able to easily see it.
So I think for now my stitchy little fingers will have to content themselves with applique and a combo of crazyquilt and freeform embroidery.
I just wish there weren’t so many types of embroidery out there! I could live another hundred and fifty years and not learn them all!!
Oh. Wait. I have the stuff for a stumpwork project…
Marie, come on in. Have a complimentary colorful towel, a scented motherfucking towel and a seat on a hard wooden chair!
You know, it would be easier to welcome people if we just gave cupcakes…
Wait, that should have been a scented motherfucking CANDLE. Geesh.