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And now back to our regularly scheduled post:
Reading through some of the stranger comments from MRAs and PUAs and other manospherean types I often find myself wondering to what degree this “new misogyny” reaches beyond the internet. I don’t mean old-fashioned misogyny and sexism, which are obviously fairly common offline. I mean the elaborate misogynistic ideologies we discuss here – the “feminism runs the world,” “all women are hypergamous bitches who will dump you in a second for an alpha,” “we hunted the mammoth to feed you” kind of stuff.
I run across much less of this offline than on, though the people I hang out with aren’t exactly a representative sampling of the general public.
So I’m asking you, dear readers, to tell me a bit about your own experiences. Do you run across MRAs/PUAs in the real world on a regular or even an irregular basis? Where (online or off) did you first encounter MRAs and/or PUAs? What aspects of what we might call the manosphere ideology are the most common offline? If it seems less common offline, is this because the beliefs are not that widespread, or is it that people are less willing to say the kind of horrific misogynistic shit they say online to other people face to face?
Thoughts?
ugh: It’s true, wages have only held with inflation for the past few decades. However, they are still twice what they were in 1947.
So why are you making the implication they are, in practical terms rising? Because 1947 is well past the working lifetime of anyone I know. Since wages have been stagnant since the 1960s, which is still outside the working lifetime of a significant portion of the population, and declined for a 20 year period in the middle of the time frame being discussed, you are correct; but only in a technical sense.
In real terms wages have declined.
Drew, can you not read? You’ve been told how wrong you are, suck it up.
OMG…having just read about companies/bosses gloating that they can hire women much cheaper than men for the same job…do I need to find that part in this book?
“I don’t get why people are so resistant to the notion that adding women to the labor marketplace increases the competition for jobs and has a downward effect on wages.”
Because it is entirely devoid of fact?
The entrance of women into the workforce correlates with a massive INCREASE in real wages. It doesn’t matter what you think it should have done in theory, in practice it didn’t decrease wages. That’s just factual.
Dude, that’s a totally different percentage. 1970: 31mil/73mil = 43%; 2009: 72mil/121mil = 59%.
Or you could just look at the obvious upward trend on the graph you’re citing.
@pecunium
Because I was responding to Drew, who was talking about the last sixty years? Because women’s participation in the workforce actually hasn’t changed that much in the period you want to talk about?
(Sorry, that last post was wrt Ugh saying that the same % of women were in the workforce in 1970 as now.)
Drew: But in modern history, what happened is that women’s entrance into the labor market disrupted everything and we haven’t sorted out what to do about it yet.
Only if we discount all the non-rich women who were, “forced to be wage earners”.
From looking at the “jobless recovery,” it looks like the new trend is for productivity gains to be captured by employers to make the same amount of people do more work for the same amount of pay, rather than raise wages or hire workers.
That trend is not new. It’s been going on for a good forty years. It’s the, “explanation” for the lack of wage increase from the 1970s to the present.
@katz
Oh, fair enough, I typed 60 into the calculator when I divided it.
Alright, so about half of women’s entrance fromn 1950 (30% employed) into the workforce correlates with the rise in real income.
Also, that was kind of nasty, I misread a graph, it happens.
Ugh: Drew’s terms of debate are specious. Going back to 1947 allows him to skew things; because of the atypical reversal of women participating in the workforce which happened after WW2.
Drew, apart from it being baseless, you’re still talking as if women’s presence in the workplace is newish and a problem. You’re talking as if we’re a group discrete from “people” ie. men. That’s what irks me. We’re not a fucking problem to be solved.
Incidentally not everyone here is American.
@pecunium
So it’s my fault for wanting to argue his points? He said something had happened in the last 60 years that decreased real wages. I pointed out it did not. I’m not sure why there’s anger coming towards me on this.
OMG, major dilemma here! I need help!
Do I start a blackwork sampler/dust cover for my sewing machine on the forty count linen and hope my eyes don’t bleed, or do I wait indefinitely until I manage to find a suitable and probably expensive magnifying glass?
I mean, I could always work on my applique and embroidery quilt if my fingers get stitchy, but I just got my hands on a book FILLED with gorgeous diaper patterns for blackwork.
HELLPP!
That’s the real issue, I think: If you look at trends from the end of WWII to the present, you get lots of graphs with two trends, one through the 50s and 60s, the other from the 70s to the present (as seen in the real wages over time graph). So making claims based on the overall trend has little meaning because the first 20 years skew the data away from the actual trend that has been happening for the vast majority of our collective life experience.
And… The denizens of Manboobz fall silent.
Embroidery, stopping political and economic arguments since the invention of thread.
pillow in hell, I would gladly talk embroidery with you if I knew anything at all about the subject. It’s like you’re speaking another language!
The only thing I will say about the unfolding economic discussion above is that it appears both sides agree that Drew is wrong.
:::applause:::
How strong a magnifier do you need, pillow? I’ve found using the magnifying spectacles they sell in pharmacies is just the shot. I need ’em for knitting or sewing or reading.
I did not just read this:”in short that it makes hetero women entirely reliant on a husband for financial support. ” I did not just read this I did not just read this I did not just read this…Of course same sex couples can’t have a “traditional” marriage/relationship…I did not just read this…
Sorry pillow in hell! I know nothing about embroidery.
Yeah, I regret having that wide-ranging a discussion and i’m sorry that people felt I was trolling. I could offer a more hedged, nuanced, and narrower statement. but I don’t think it’s worth anybody’s time at this point. My point in posting the link to Warren is that the rise of two-income households has reduced purchasing power for lots of families, which is an interesting and counterintuitive result.
I was partially holding my breath because I was interested what sewers and stitchers do when their hands get sore, because my mom used to be a big needlepoint fan but has an awful case of rheumatoid arthritis and i’ve been trying to find projects she can do.
I’d wait for a magnifier. I’ll always pick doing it right from the start over starting haphazard and then regretting it.
If you read that in context Tina, you’ll see it was phrased that way because if it was a same sex couple, nobody in the relationship would be reliant on a “husband” for financial support. I didn’t say “partner” because MRAs specifically want hetero women to be dependent on their husbands for necessities.
The thing is, it really didn’t. How has the massive increase (then inflation-matching increase) of real income and the increased labor participation actually decreased purchasing power?
@crmsnfrn
I am so sorry.
My wife was raped when we were dating and since her formative years had taught her to trust no one, she told no one. This was very hard on her and continued to be even after she told me several years after the fact. I am glad you are getting help with it now. Whatever you do in the future, you don’t have to fight it alone.
Cloudiah, I had to choose the one damn craft no one else seems to do! I’ve never met another embroiderer. Oh well.
Kitteh, I wear glasses already, so I don’t think another pair is gonna work? I’m looking for a magnifying glass that’s pretty heavy duty, considering that I want to get into work that requires very fine weaves. The stuff I’ve seen online (my other problem, getting materials since I have to order things from overseas) are table top and bloody dear.