Over on PUA dirtbag Roosh V’s Return of Kings blog, a guest poster calling himself Emmanuel Goldstein (oh, how clever) offers a rather revealing take on the psychology of “players” and pickup artists like himself.
After justifiably mocking “nice guys” for assuming that “girls choose men like people buy houses” – that is, by carefully weighing pros and cons and looking for the best deal – he suggests that
[p]layers … are more like that sweet old lady with saggy arms wearing a hairnet at your local supermarket, handing out free, tasty samples.
Stay with him; it will all make sense, sort of, in a moment.
You’re not even looking at her, and she beckons you over to have a taste. Even though it’s junk food, you can’t resist. You avoid sweets, and here you are eating a tiny cinnabon. And really, she won’t mind if you take just the
tiptaste.Regardless, minutes later, you’re going home with a 96-pack of cinnabons – and you don’t even eat pastries! To be completely honest, the first time it happens, you’re a little jarred and confused about how the whole thing went down so fast. …
Now, imagine that that sweet old lady is actually a funny, strapping young man, and you buying those cinnabons is a woman agreeing to sex with him the night she met him. That confusion you felt after you bought a huge package of junk food? That’s how a girl might feel after her first one-night stand.
Yes, that’s right: Mr. Goldstein is comparing himself and his fellow “players” to supermarket pastry-pushers who cajole people into eating things they know they shouldn’t eat, and that they later regret eating.
And, oh yes, that are really bad for them:
If you remain unconvinced, just remember that our economy is in shambles because tens of millions of people bought homes they cannot afford, and that half of us are comically obese from eating too much junk food. That granny sample lady is looking pretty formidable right now.
Now, there are all sorts of things wrong with Mr. Goldstein’s analogy here. Sex isn’t pastry, for one thing, and for another, women (and everyone else) should be able to indulge in either of these pleasures without having assholes on the internet getting up in their business. (And, yes, PUAs, I’m saying that as a fat fatty.) I’m just trying to point out that by the terms of his own analogy, Mr. Goldstein is saying that sex with him is a shitty thing that’s bad for you.
This isn’t someone attacking PUAs for being miserable, self-centered sexual users who are only able to convince women to have sex with them through manipulation, leaving these women feeling shitty afterwards.
This is a PUA who ASPIRES to be such a miserable, self-centered sexual user he’s only able to convince women to have sex with him through manipulation, leaving these women feeling shitty afterwards.
In other words, PUAs are devoting their lives to making women feel bad about themselves. As a life goal, this seems a bit lacking.
Oh he claims it’s because he’s a sadist Dom, well then I guess it’s a good thing I’m a masochist ehh? /sick joke
Seriously, it’s cold and dry here and all my scars are stark white and holy shit am I covered in ’em (mostly stupid shit, cooking burns, klutz moments, wrestling on grass should only be done after clearing the sticks…)
Trying to picture someone wanting to cause half this many scars without consent is terrifying (well, any amount is terrifying, but I’m a bit amazed at the state of my hands)
I’m glad that y’all made it through the crazy snow!
I think the one saving grace in all of this is that I have found that sex uniformly gets exponentially better with a partner as time goes on. I find it highly doubtful that most of the women these creeps scam on would condescend to sleep with them a second time, so they never get above the mediocre first-time sex stage, which good. Because they don’t DESERVE the good stuff.
Ok he’s just terrifying — “Don’t let it get to the situation where you are put on the line – you might not be as lucky as I was.”
As lucky as he was Oh. My. Fucking. Gods.
In less disturbing things, Cassandra I found your nose mask! http://www.coldweatherworkwear.com/GroupInformation/GroupID/25817
My brother was wearing one earlier and caused the lightbulb moment.
Oh for the love of all the gods, BDSM leads to rape and murder? How is this snowdrop shit so fractally wrong?!
Does this person get that 24/7 Dom/sub is Really Rare?!
I really felt sick when reading that. :/
Snowdrop’s arguments sound to me the same as those of rapists or proto-rapist: your sexual urges are just sooo strong you can’t help but rape someone and they like to pretend every man (or person) is like them and thinks like that. I guess he uses BDSM as an excuse for him wanting to not just rape her but also kill her.
Juu — yeah, me too. And then his BDSM excuse is used to claim that since he can make that excuse, BDSM must be bad.
Argenti – And also depressive people potentially want to kill people. Because they are dom. Yeah, sure. If anything my depression makes me more cautious about hurting someone (in a consensual!! setting)
@blackbloc and Some Gal – maybe by “triple dipping” he means three strokes and they’re finished?
Yes. Especially when they’re super excited about sex-positive feminism (as it appears Snowdrop was). I’m ambivalent about sex-positive feminism, but I’m 1000% sure we don’t need men’s voices in the discussion about women’s sexual liberation.
So yeah, I have no opinion on the “can men call themselves feminists” issue, but I fully support those who answer “no”.
(See also: reasons why Tim Wise makes me really uncomfortable)
I’m glad everyone made it through the snow all right! I do not miss shoveling. At all. But it was good exercise!
I think the idea of women wanting to have sex meaning she’s cheap is one of the most damaging memes that got lodged in my head. We need brain cleaners that can target pernicious memes, fo’srs. I did a long ass post about it at my blog. I may end up seeing of I can imbed plural streams, though, ’cause so far the one substantive response I’ve gotten was there.
Do you want to link to your blog, Deoridhe? I just checked on your name here and no link came up.
On the men-as-feminists – I haven’t thought in depth about whether it’s “actual feminist” or “ally” but I would say that any man who fancies himself as Big Boss Feminist has just shown he’s neither.
Oops! Blog at primdolls.blogspot.com . I need to set my WordPress whatever up better.
I thinker are valuable feminist allies when their focus is on altering how they relate to women and to their stereotypical “feminine” characteristics, like being a caretaker, talking about their feelings, and being vulnerable. I also think men can be valuable allies when combatting the homosocial aspects of sexism, like using being female as an insult among men.
WordPress mucks about with my links half the time, lol. I’ve got the blog – which post was it?
QFT.
And Tim Wise is who I’d bring up to any troll who took issue with men trying to be feminist leaders. I give all the side-eye to Mr. Wise.
Emilygoddess re sex positive…
I have to say that I really look closely when men, even liberal and feminist men start getting excited about womens sexual liberation. What comes to mind was the reaction to slut walk, particularly when women wear wearing “provacative” clothing was spotted.
Or when Canadian women won the right to walk around in public spaces topless, just like the men. The strange thing was, I think toplessness among men dropped after that. Unless you’re at the beach/pool around here I don’t see as many topless men around.
It’s the top post right now, called “Sexy and Objectification”. I’m going to be doing some more, and bringing other posts over, but a chunk of my posts are fashion, fun, and light commentary.
I like the idea of sex positivity and agree with the ethics and goals, but I worry about it being co-opted by a sexist society into becoming more things to beat women up with, like how financial equality is sometimes recast as “no woman should get my money”.
Re: male feminists — *makes all kinds of idfk noises*
On one hand, I’m wary of waving the feminist flag too high, in part because of the continued issues with trans* issues and the public reaction. But then, MRAs and their ilk tout this shit and I just want to go “yes, I’m a feminist, so fuck off”
And even the continued trans* issues — much like LBT I’ve never really been comfortable with trans* communities, and seeing how I have no plans of transitioning they don’t seem to want me anyways (stick me in the middle isn’t exactly a medical option after all). GLBT spaces in general still have the bi/pan/whatever-sexual makes gays and lesbians look bad chip-on-the-shoulder. So either I can go start my own little “can opt out of gender and no I don’t care wtf my partner(s) have in the pants, and oh yeah, we’re all people” movement, or I can go with the much easier feminism label.
As y’all can probably guess, labels and I are mortal enemies anyways. But this lovely mess, and my meh attitude on gender, leaves me inclined to let cis men call themselves feminists. Preferably because someone with more claim to the label called them a feminist, and certainly with it revocable by female feminists. But I get all meeeeh because defining feminists as female only quickly gets all trans* exclusionary — do trans women count? Only after transition? What about post-transition trans men who’ve long been feminists? Non-binaries? Only if biologically female? — Since y’all are awesome people, I’m fairly sure the answers here are going to be the inclusive ones. Which leaves just cis men unable to claim the feminism label and then it gets weird in the “no we’re really for equality” sense.
FTR, I have absolutely no problem with giving a “feminist” cis man a once over and booting him — this is exactly wtf should happen to Hugo. Fucking. Schwyzer. But I’ve very wary of defining feminism as faab living as female only…but that’s my issue with radical feminists (or at radfem hub) and I’m biased here since, if that’s the working definition, I should STFU.
Ick, that got long, sorry guys.
In short, you guys are awesome, I’m wary of cis men claiming the feminist label, but also wary of limiting it the faab living as female people because the trans* exclusion is icky.
Also, regarding sex positive feminism, this is more my kinky side, but my only view on that one is — consenting? Safe/known risks? Have fun!
I got no problems with male or non-binary feminists. Like someone said earlier, I’ll give the ol’ side-eye to men who want to be boss feminist, and I admit I’ve seen my share of male “feminists” who think “sex positive” means “you must please my boner now.” But that’s not all of them for sure.
@Argenti
What cloudiah said. Basically, I’m cool with anyone using the feminist label (although, as someone said above, I am also sympathetic to the reasoning that relegates cis men to “allies” only, I just kindly disagree). The trouble is cis men in leadership in feminist organizations and feminism in general. Male voices are automatically privileged over female ones in our society and I think that reproducing that in feminist spaces* is counter-productive and also contributes to the continued exclusion of WOC, trans* individuals, etc. There are only so many leader positions available and those positions should go to traditionally excluded voices, both women who are excluded by society as a whole and those historically marginalized within feminism. That’s my two cents.
*I originally typed spaces wrong and autocorrect decided I meant spaceships. Now I has a sad that I don’t have a feminist spaceship. 🙁
Agreed regarding leadership roles (just another way Hugo. Fucking. Schwyzer. fucks up, but it’s a long list!)
Feminist spaceships sound awesome!
@ Argenti
That mask might actually work on really cold days! The problem is that my nose gets cold even indoors sometimes. It’s related to the Reynauds that makes my hands drain of blood and go white when they get cold, I think.
And yeah, I’m OK with men calling themselves feminists sometimes, and more than OK with them calling themselves feminist allies. But guys who’re super into sex positive feminism in particular and who go out of their way to try to attack other kinds of feminism from the perspective that they are the great defenders of sex positivism? Ick, and also GTFO of my movement. It always seems to end up being a stick to beat women who’re more sexually reserved or conservative with. When men get involved in sex positivism it so often turns into “so you should give me the sex I want because if you don’t you’re a prude and you’re setting feminism back”. It’s just so blatantly manipulative that I always wonder how they can possibly think that the feminists they’re hectoring won’t notice the shit they’re trying to pull.
This also goes for men who talk about being sex work positive and how they support sex workers. In theory that’s fine, but in practice it usually turns out to be both blatantly self-focused and a bit creepy. Example! I have never forgotten the much older male feminist who told me that if I wasn’t willing to do sex work I had no right to call myself a feminist, with the implication being that I should stop looking for a writing job and do sex work instead or he would revoke my feminist card. It’s guys like him that make me really suspicious of men who’re focused specifically on sex-positive feminism and sex worker’s rights.