So, “Nice Guys” are causing a stir on the Internet again, thanks largely to a new(ish) Tumblr blog called “Nice Guys” of Ok Cupid, which posts selected highlights from the OKCupid profiles of self-proclaimed “nice guys” who make it very clear, in their profiles and in their answers to OKCupid’s “match” questions, that they are in fact anything but nice.
Some of them are actual or potential date rapists, convinced that women that they’re “nice” to owe them sex. Others are bitter from too many rejections, and launch long tirades in their profiles about how women are bitches and whores. Still others are clueless on a more fundamental level, declaring that women have “an obligation to shave their legs” and otherwise prettify themselves for men while noting that they themselves only shower or brush their teeth occasionally.
It’s not clear how any of this is supposed to convince the women of OKCupid that these angry, ranting, hapless-yet-entitled “nice guys” are indeed as “nice” as advertised, much less convince any rational human being to have sex with them.
The site is a goldmine of unintentional self-revelation — as is a similar site with the name of, er, OKCupid Goldmine — and I’ve spent hours looking through the pictures on both sites and discussing them with friends. The only reason I haven’t linked to it in the past is that neither of them blur out the faces of the people they feature, which seems to me a pretty major invasion of privacy. (As you no doubt have noticed, I’ve taken the liberty of somewhat creeepily disguising the faces of the guys in the pics I’m posting here.) But “Nice Guys of OKCupid has been pretty widely discussed, linked to by Jezebel (1, 2) and The Guardian and even the Men’s Rights subreddit, to mention merely a few examples; Ok Cupid Goldmine is also provoking discussions. Posts on both sites regularly get dozens if not hundreds of comments and reblogs on Tumblr. The cat’s already out of the bag.
Here are a couple more of these “Nice Guys” with their faces all spiral-ized:
Well, if a person decides to change their expectations while in a relationship, then they’re probably an asshole. Unless it’s the “expanding the definition of attractive” that tends to happen in long-term relationships.
Lumi, the difference between physical and character expectations is that the personality ones are going to affect how that person treats you. I’m fine with someone saying they don’t want to be with controlling types, or misogynists, or people whose religious/political views are totally at odds with theirs. I’m not fine with the “women are obliged to shave their legs/be a certain shape/appeal to my boner at all times” types (see: misogynists).
The problem with Grumbles’s action is that he didn’t say straight out what he meant. He could have answered “No” to the obligation question and made a comment along the lines of “I prefer shaved legs but wtf is this “obligation” crap?” to make it clear. And then he started on the women/sex/food analogy, which is soooo much like the sort of shite we’ve seen from trolls here.
@Grumbles
I enjoy the feeling of smooth legs. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, we both love the same movie. It is our absolute favorite movie. We enjoy it. Does that mean that it is the inky movie we watch? Can we watch other movies we enjoy? Why isn’t leg shaving the same?
Only movie not inky movie. I swear this autocorrect barely speaks English.
Also! Let’s say that there are some men out there who can’t figure out what that question is designed to do, which is to get at the issue of whether or not they think that all women are required to conform to the physical preferences of some men. Guess what? Any man who can’t figure that out fails my “is this person worth dating” test on the grounds of sorry but anyone who can’t figure that out is not smart enough or aware enough about gender issues to be a good match for me. And I think that may be the case for most of the women who are paying attention to how men answer that question.
Grumbles: I want you to want to shave your legs. I don’t want someone who grudgingly does it for my sake; I want someone who enjoys the feeling of having smooth legs. I want someone who legitimately enjoys a lot of the same things I do, not someone who feigns interest to keep me happy.
Are hairy legs a deal-breaker for you?
She doesn’t have to ask. Already done.
lumi: pecunium, I have lurked here a long time and have grown to respect the regulars, including you . I just see someone (Grumbles) being attacked for what seems to me a reasonable opinion. Perhaps there is history I missed.
There is some history, but the issue before is that he’s being dishonest about the role of the question, and disingenuous about why he answers it the way he does.
Wow, lumi managed to read my comment pretty much exactly backwards. That was dumb.
I get what you’re saying, Kitteh’s Unpaid Help. The problem isn’t that Grumbles has a preference, but the way he talks about it, right?
“She doesn’t have to ask. Already done.”
Well, all righty then.
The real question is will he change something he doesn’t do now… like shave his legs; and wear shorts.
I disagree with pecunium (and possibly others) in that I don’t actually care if a specific man has a preference for shaved legs and would in general be less attracted to a woman who didn’t shave hers*. It’s the idea that doing so is obligatory for all women that I have a problem with.
*With the caveat that reasonable people understand that hair growth is a thing that happens and that even people who prefer to keep themselves shaven/trimmed/whatever will not look like that all the time.
I know that people here have to be on constant alert for trolls, but I agree with almost everything posted/commented here. I’ll go back to lurking now.
Yeah, lumi, he’s not upfront about it. It seems dishonest to avoid answering it (and clarifying what he means) and then announce that unshaven legs are a deal-breaker later on. Even if he said “obligated to shave if dating me” it would be more honest. For that matter it would make things crystal clear. If I were dating, I’d dismiss a guy who said that instantly, which would be better than maybe having a conversation and finding out later that oh, I’m required to do things to my body that he prefers. It’s not like we’re talking basic hygiene here.
Hmm, ok. Grumbles, would you shave your chest then sport tank tops if your gf asked you to?
@lumi
You don’t have to go back to lurking. I don’t think you’re a troll, I just think you missed Grumbles’ previous appearnaces and haven’t (or hadn’t) thought it through.
Well, except his own.
I’d say that if you have a strong personal preference for shaven whatever but aren’t ridiculous enough to expect every person of your preferred gender to conform to it then the smart thing to do is what Kitteh suggested – answer “No” and then put something explanatory in the comment section. Or just deal with the question of whether or not a specific person is going to be a match for you in that sense once you actually start talking to them/meet them.
Like, I have a strong preference for men who aren’t hairy, but I don’t think all the men in the world should de-fuzz themselves just because that happens to be what I like. So if there was a questions about, say, hairy chests for women I’d answer “no” and then figure out whether or not I’m likely to be attracted to a particular dude later.
That being said, I’ve dated a dude who did have a hairy chest in the past and I was fine with it because I found him super attractive in all kinds of other ways. So “in general I really prefer shaved legs” seems perfectly reasonable to me, but “I would never, ever date a woman who didn’t shave her legs no matter how attractive I found her in other ways” does seem a little weird to me, if the person genuinely can’t imagine ever making a single exception.
Thanks, some gal. I’m just feeling frustrated because I love this blog and really want to fit in but it seems like one mistake and you’re done.
Look, all women have to shave their bloody legs in our culture, and way the frig more now adays (thanks a bunch porn) so that preference question is really a tricker. Grumbles may like silky smooth shaven legs in much the same way women may like a shaven beard, but the social pressure to shave beards aren’t quite the same as to shave legs- you can be sexually desirable as a beardo, but society pretty much has vetoed leg hair. So just don’t frig around with that question. Obviously no one has an obligation to shave their legs, but in the little added comment dohickey OKcupid provides, specify that’s what you prefer. And no one on okcupid who’s filled dozens of those dumb ass questions out sees the word ‘obligation’ and thinks ‘preference’. They make every effort in the world to get you to write more and clarify yourself, at length.
@lumi
If you aren’t comfortable, then you obviously should let it go, but if you are comfortable enough to join in, I think that would be nice. This is rough and tumble, but getting called out doesn’t mean that no one will ever listen again. It just means that we disagreed once. (Patterns are a bigger deal, but I see no reason to suspect that at this point.)
@ttf
Like I said earlier, I think he’s just pissy that the OKC system builds in ways to test for sexism. That’s not fair to men who are sexist!
Oral is impossible on a woman who doesn’t trim well.
@Cassandra
Did I not already make it perfectly clear that I don’t think all women everywhere should be this way or that?
As for exceptions, I can make an exception for the whole heterosexual thing, but it would have be a pretty damn exceptional guy.