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antifeminism MRA reddit top troll TROOOLLLL!! whaaaaa?

Drama! On Reddit, “Mikhael_Varpole” denies everything

Those following the strange tale of Man Boobz’ recently crowned Troll of the Year for 2012 will be intersted to know that someone calling himself Mikhael_Varpole has done a self-post on the Men’s Rights Subreddit claiming that he’s not MRAL after all and declaring me a liar. Here’s his explanation, FWIW.

MRmralvarpoledenial

I’ll be keeping him banned, in any case; even if this serial liar and sockpuppeter is telling the truth about this (highly unlikely, in my opinion), he’s still a serial liar and sockpuppeter.

Also, for the record, he wasn’t using a “similar” IP as Scooby Doo/MRAL; it was the same IP. And he was using the IP before I called him out for sockpuppeting as Torvus Butthorn — which is what he’s referring to, dishonestly of course, when he talks about doxxing.

He’s clearly just trying to stir up more shit, but it looks like the folks in r/mensrights aren’t biting.

Anyway, I guess we can consider this his Troll of the Year acceptance speech.

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CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ Some Gal

Yeah, that’s what I meant. I don’t even know if a word exists for whatever the hell is wrong with that guy.

atomicgrizzly
atomicgrizzly
8 years ago

@shiraz. Yep, “Nice Guy Syndrome” all the way. That whole “women just want to be dominated” line of thinking. It’s the worst.

Creative Writing Student
Creative Writing Student
8 years ago

The 50 Shades stuff has lots of rape, but since her inner goddess loves it, I guess that makes her verbal no meaningless. smh

50 Shades: Ana’s inner goddess kinda likes it. The rest of Ana is (rightfully) terrified of Christian Grey.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@Creative Writing Student

Someone said that 50 Shades is one of the few stories that is scarier when you take the monsters/vampires out. It is so much less horrid as Twilight fanfic.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Stories where the writer has written rape or abuse without even realizing that that’s what they wrote are a special kind of creepy.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

They also pretty much prove the existence of rape culture, not that anyone here doubts it.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I’m actually really glad that we had this conversation. I was trying to pinpoint what exactly bothered me so much about that movie and trying to explain it to other people made it clearer to me – it’s the removal of the women’s subjectivity that it from “this horror movie is more twisted than average” into “my flesh is quite literally crawling” territory.

atomicgrizzly
atomicgrizzly
8 years ago

Especially not after that… what was it called… Stubenville High School or whatever incident. That was deeply disturbing to me. The fact that so many did participated or did nothing to help that poor girl.

Creative Writing Student
Creative Writing Student
8 years ago

@Some Gal

The common ‘complaints’ (lol mummy porn!) also come off as rape culture too – “haha, women aren’t supposed to enjoy porn! especially not old hags! haha!”

I mean, the fans… well from what I’ve heard the fantasy is Christian Grey pampering them, “I guess I’d just have to put up with the weird stuff”… but you don’t fight rape culture with more rape culture.

atomicgrizzly
atomicgrizzly
8 years ago

I don’t see why the 50 shades book come as such a shock to people. Haven’t they ever walked down the romance section of their local book store? Abs… abs everywhere.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Yeah, atomicgrizzly, I read some of the message boards. One idiot commented, “I judge a woman a lot based on how she behaves drunk.” Now, mind you, this poor girl was passed-out the whole time. Errr, wouldn’t it make more sense to judge the behavior of the person/people who aren’t completely UNCONSCIOUS? There was another video where this punk kid kept saying “so what?” when asked by an off-camera person what he would do if that happened to his daughter. “So what, she’d be dead.” He shot back. The disregard, hatefulness and sexism is absolutely chilling.

atomicgrizzly
atomicgrizzly
8 years ago

Exactly. They place no value placed with any woman’s life or well being. They just see sex objects.

“I judge a woman a lot based on how she behaves drunk.”

Really? Because I think the man raping a woman who is passed out should be the first person who is judged.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Since when is “unconscious” a behavior?

atomicgrizzly
atomicgrizzly
8 years ago

Since the rapists decided to get rid of their pesky cognitive dissonance.

lauralot89
8 years ago

I don’t understand where the mindset came from that it’s fine to judge someone who was raped when they were passed out. What about women in a coma? “But it’s not their fault they’re in a coma?,” you say? Okay, what if they ended up in a coma because they were driving drunk? Do they deserve it then? What if I fall asleep at a party and someone takes advantage of me? Was it my fault for sleeping? Shouldn’t I have known better than to be tired around dudes?

But no, it’s only ever drunk people. Because one form of unconsciousness is inherently immoral or something.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Part of it is the idea that women shouldn’t be drinking at all.

pecunium
8 years ago

I think they are fine with women drinking; it makes them fair game.

What they don’t like is women as autonomous actors. Therefore anything which has personal agency is a “risk factor” and mitigates the rapists responsibility.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I didn’t mean the rapists. Obviously they’re in favor of anything that might help them to incapacitate their victims. I mean that there’s an element in society that thinks that it’s unseemly for women to get drunk because getting drunk is a Man Thing and unladylike, and those people seem to love tut tuting over cases where women were raped while drunk because they see the rape as a punishment for breaking the rules of proper feminine behavior and hope that talking about those cases will help them to shove women back into the nice little boxes that they’d love to keep us in. Rape is often a mechanism of social control.

atomicgrizzly
atomicgrizzly
8 years ago

Another double standard. “Women should drink so I can have sex with them, but if they get taken advantage of, then sad day for them. They shouldn’t be out drinking like that.”

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

As an example think of our friend Mary Sunshine. She doesn’t seem to have any desire to rape anyone herself, but if she can use the fear of rape as a way to manipulate women into acting the way she thinks that they should? You know that she will.

atomicgrizzly
atomicgrizzly
8 years ago

@CassandraSays

Holy crap. That’s a good point. More than a little disturbing too. Kinda like the skimpy clothes thing. “Unless you dress that way society wants you too, you’ll have no sympathy if you’re raped.”

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

“Since when is “unconscious” a behavior?”

Exactly. But like lauralot and others are pointing out, they’ll just try the old, “Well, why did she drink so much? Huh? What does she expect?” It’s depressing as shit. But at least these idiots and their idiot friends stepped in it when they decided to post all this shit. Oh, thank god for that navel-gazing urge.

Historophilia
Historophilia
8 years ago

Stemming from this discussion,on New Years Eve, there was girl who I didn’t know but was a friend of a friend who was completely off her face.

She arrived like that and everyone noticed and commented on it and I still had to step in a pull two, TWO separate guys off her who were trying to kiss and grope her when she clearly was not in a condition to be doing anything of the sort.

Ick. Ick. Ick.

I knew both those guys and will be keeping a close eye on them around my friends from now on.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The fear of rape has been used as a way to control the behavior of women for a long, long time. That’s the reason why I have absolutely zero tolerance for the “but if women just took some precautions…” arguments. Part of the purpose of rape culture is to limit women’s ability to move freely in society.

atomicgrizzly
atomicgrizzly
8 years ago

@CassandraSays

Damn straight! Thanks for pointing that out.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

What Cassandra said.

pecunium
8 years ago

Cassandra: Yeah. I agree. The people who aren’t rapists, in fact, but “merely” accept it as, “the way things are” are just fine with making anything an excuse to excuse rapists; which is social control.

They tut-tut, but they actually approve of the effects of the rape they talk about condemning.

katz
8 years ago

Cassandra, I’m really sorry for acting amused about Steele. He has always singled you out and so I can definitely understand why that would be not. funny. at. all to you!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ katz

Thanks. It’s honestly not just that, though, it’s that I feel like he feeds off of attention and the only way we’re ever going to get rid of him is to ignore him. I kind of wish everyone would do the same with Diogenes, for the same reason (he isn’t as openly creepy as Mr Al yet, but there’s something off about anyone who keeps trying to insert themselves into a community after being told many time that the community does not want them around).

cloudiah
8 years ago

Yeah, I want to apologize for being amused about Mr. Al/Steele too. Even though I got much laughage out of Steele’s appearances here, the fact that he would turn so much brainpower specifically to the task of coming to a place where he wasn’t welcome is … really terrible. I remember that Cliff shared part of a message he sent when he was banned from commenting on Pervocracy, and it was something like “I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BAN ME.”

I’m not calling him a rapist, but there is a certain similarity to the mentality…

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Hmm, dunno if that makes sense. Let me try again.

Basically my concern about us engaging with people who have a known tendency to refuse to respect boundaries is that if we do continue to give them what they want (engagement, attention) then what they’re going to take away from that is that regardless of what anyone says on the surface they can ultimately get their way if they just keep pushing and refuse to take no for an answer.

katz
8 years ago

You are absolutely right! Trouble is even his most blatant socks take a while to notice and by then you’ve already engaged with him, so I’m not sure how one goes about ignoring him altogether,

I guess I reacted with humor because he just punked us so bad that I (personally) feel like I have to laugh about it or else get angry.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

My feeling (and I know that nobody can control how they feel) is that this person deserves nothing from us. Not anger, not compassion, not attention. If people do feel angry though, well, the most effective way to hurt a person like that is to not care about them at all.

He wants to feel important. He’s not important, he pathetic.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

There’s, to me, also the issue of what message ignoring something might send to those reading. Diogenes says some pretty cliche awful things a lot if the time and not responding at all can look like agreement or at least like those awful things are not so bad. If all it took was a week or so of ignoring him and then he’d be gone, I might feel differently, but Diogenes really likes to hear himself talk and I suspect that just being on the same topic as the rest of us may be enough to keep him around. I could be wrong on that, though.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I don’t know what else to do with him, since almost every regular has told him to get lost at one point or another. Like cloudiah said, there’s something troubling about a person who just will not accept the fact that people want nothing to do with him, and it concerns me that we might in any way be reinforcing that person belief that they have a right to force people to engage with them, even if it’s not intentional on our part.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

I’m willing to try. If it does anything to slow his annoying combinations of things that have been already discussed/refuted and nonsense he pulled out of his ass because research is work/”intellectually dishonest,” that would be AMAZING.

howardbann1ster
8 years ago

Like cloudiah said, there’s something troubling about a person who just will not accept the fact that people want nothing to do with

THAT’S what bothers me so much about his willful pretense to be just-another-member-of-the-commentariat-posting. It was easier to engage with Mr SteAl, frankly, because he at least understood that he was here as an enemy. The faux-friendliness is… disturbing.

cloudiah
8 years ago

It can be hard for me to recognize when people cross that line here*, so I’ll try to pay better attention in the future to when other regulars’ boundary-meters are ringing loudly.

*I do find the batting around of trolls that goes on here to be oddly therapeutic, and have learned so much from some of the epic takedowns of the logic/fact fails they spew.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

With some of them, like Slavey, it’s totally theraputic. I haven’t found Diogenes in any way entertaining to deal with for a long time. Maybe that’s just me though. Arrogant young men with Dunning-Kruger tendencies are not people who I have a whole lot of patience with in general.

Some Gal Not Bored at All

@CassandraSays

Arrogant young men with Dunning-Kruger tendencies are not people who I have a whole lot of patience with in general.

There are so many of them, too! In the LotR thread alone there are at least 3 of them!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I used to try to reason with those people. I have learned that doing so is a complete waste of my time. Now I just want them to go be stupid somewhere else.

pecunium
8 years ago

I think the way to deal with Diogenes is the way we dealt with Ruby/Melissa. When they get to the point they are ignoring their past, we need to remind them of it. Part of what they do is pretend each thread is a chance to start ab initio.

That, or publicly declare why you are shunning them and never again engage them directly.

Melody
8 years ago

There is no reasoning.
After-while, I frequently realize this and just stop debating.

Karalora
Karalora
8 years ago

I was one of those who was impressed with Mr. SteAL’s long-term sockpuppetry, but you guys are right–it’s more creeptastic than accomplished. Boo on him.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Very far beind here, but seconding this —

“@lauralot89, did you just invoke the name of The Wickerman Remake? That film was god-awful! “THE BEEZ! THE BEEEEEEEEZ!”

The original was pretty good though.”

The original is all the right kinds of creepy.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Morning, all.

Cassandra – ditto about apologies. It’s like cloudiah said, I wasn’t picking up on boundary crossing (and wasn’t around during Mr Al’s time, if that means anything).

I’ve been thinking Diogenes is way over the line even for an obnoxious Dunning-Kruger type for a while, and yeah, like Howard said, the whole “I’m part of this community” bullshit is irritating.

Does anyone else think asking David to ban him would be the right move? Like it’s been said already, ignoring him might not work, or take too damn long, since he’s so fond of the sound of his own voice. I’d just like to see him gone.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“I guess I reacted with humor because he just punked us so bad that I (personally) feel like I have to laugh about it or else get angry.”

Agreed

“The common ‘complaints’ (lol mummy porn!) also come off as rape culture too – “haha, women aren’t supposed to enjoy porn! especially not old hags! haha!””

Mommy porn…mummy porn…I’m picturing gauze here XD

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Mummy porn must exist, or one of the basic rules of the internet would be violated.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

Yeah, I have no desire to see Al again, because he’s in the same category as, say, Bob Smith. For some reason, it’s the sympathy trolls that really grind my gears. Not the cranks like Martin or NOW, not even the creepers like Meller get to me like that. I mean, they’re bats, but I feel like there’s an understanding that we will never agree with one another. I always figured guys like NWO came to blow off steam, same as us.

But it gives me a special bothering when people come here and try to play the “poor me” game. I don’t give a shit if Al WAS twenty. When I was twenty, I was engaged, milking goddamned cows in New Zealand, and I damn well knew the difference between my rapist and men as a whole. I have expectations of adults. Also, to just go into a place raging and trolling and then U-turn and expect everyone to pat your ass and comfort you is infantile. I don’t go to goddamned MRA sites to troll and then expect them to pat my hands and explain to me that not all men are like that and give me goddamn Common Sense 101. Why the hell should I play babysitter for the opposite?

Some Gal Not Bored at All

I hate it so much because it feels so gendered. This space is gendered female (look at how many trolls assume that there are only women posting here) and then men come in and demand we pay attention to their thoughts and feelings above all else. Al used to make so many threads all about him (which happened, but less often, when he was shocking as Steele), Bob did the same thing, and there are definitely others I’m forgetting. I know this point has been made before, but it is worth making again. Men are not entitled to women’s (or other men’s) time and attention!