Uh oh! It seems that some woman is offering some opinions about Tolkien!
Over on Time.com, Ruth Davis Konigsberg has a brief personal essay reflecting on the almost complete lack of female characters in the new Hobbit film, and in Tolkien’s ouvre generally. As she notes, it’s not until about two hours in to the nearly three-hour movie that “we finally meet someone without a Y chromosome,” namely Cate Blanchett’s Galadriel — and she was added into the originally all-male story by the screenwriters. Blanchette’s is the only female name out of 37 named in the cast list – though there are a couple of unnamed female characters who make brief appearances.
“I did not read The Hobbit or the The Lord of the Rings trilogy as a child, and I have always felt a bit alienated from the fandom surrounding them,” Konigsberg observes.
Now I think I know why: Tolkien seems to have wiped women off the face of Middle-earth. I suppose it’s understandable that a story in which the primary activity seems to be chopping off each other’s body parts for no particular reason might be a little heavy on male characters — although it’s not as though Tolkien had to hew to historical accuracy when he created his fantastical world. The problem is one of biological accuracy. Tolkien’s characters defy the basics of reproduction: dwarf fathers beget dwarf sons, hobbit uncles pass rings down to hobbit nephews. If there are any mothers or daughters, aunts or nieces, they make no appearances. Trolls and orcs especially seem to rely on asexual reproduction, breeding whole male populations, which of course come in handy when amassing an army to attack the dwarves and elves.
Yes, yes, as she admits, Tolkien’s few female characters tend to be powerful. But that hardly changes the basic fact that the Hobbit, and Tolkien generally, is overloaded with dudes.
These fairly commonplace observations have, naturally, sent the orcs and the elf princesses of the Men’s Rights subreddit into an uproar. Naturally, none of them seem to have bothered to read any of Konigsberg’s brief piece before setting forth their opinions, which sometimes accuse her of ignoring things she specifically acknowledged (like that whole powerful-female-character thing), and completely miss that the bit about reproduction is, you know, a joke on Konigsberg’s part.
Here are some of my favorite idiotic comments from the “discussion.” (Click on the yellow comments to see the originals on Reddit.)
Uh, Jane Austen’s books are filled with dudes. Especially Pride and Prejudice 2: Mr. Darcy’s Revenge, which was later adapted into a buddy cop movie starring Robin Williams and Danny Glover.
EDITED TO ADD: Somehow forgot to include two of my favorite comments:
Oh, and if you were unable to find a woman in the picture above, try this one instead:
Kitteh — he’s been the most boring troll since he started. He just can’t compete with the likes of Mr. Al/Varpole/Steele/Torvus Butthorn/Josephine/etc.
Speaking of sexbots, was it ABNOY who thought they’d make women obsolete?
Well, of course you do, but that’s because you’re really stupid. The rest of us can see the negative consequences of erasing women (and minorities, and queers, and so on and so forth) from the media pretty easily.
I think Arks and Antz were also of the sexbots to make women obsolete line, or was it virtual reality with Antz? Did Meller fancy the idea of robots as well as dolls, or do they have too much agency (or are too high tech) for him? I know he sees himself as one of those privileged fellows who gets access to all the brothels women are imprisoned in in his dystopia.
Even though I’m female myself, I’ve never been bothered by the lack of female characters in LOTR and the Hobbit. Usually, I’m more interested in a story’s plot and setting than the gender of the characters.
As far as watching the movies go, I spend a lot of the time looking at the scenery trying to work out where it was filmed (‘cos I’m a kiwi). And wishing my house was like Bag End 😉
The only book I can think of (off the top of my head and that I’ve read recently) where the gender of the characters was actually important is “Glory Season” by David Brin.
BTW Pratchett is the best author in the known multiverse 🙂
“The rest of us can see the negative consequences of erasing women (and minorities, and queers, and so on and so forth) from the media pretty easily.”
Wow, just because female and “people-of-color” characters don’t appear for the most part in a single fantasy trilogy (albeit the original one of it’s genre), they’re being erased from the global media! Help, help, the sky is falling, the sky is falling!
Anyway, who are you to condemn the will of the majority of society as expressed in the marketplace of free enterprise, eh? If there was no demand of male-centric media-content, there would be no supply of it! Again, as I suggested, instead of demanding that men create a supply of media-content of women for women, women should create their own supply of media-content by women of women for women. And if the demand is not there now yet or not enough, then create or raise your own demand! After all, women need men like fish needs bicycles, right? So, what are you demanding from us, for? Your own words, so walk the talk!
“Kitteh — he’s been the most boring troll since he started.”
Yeah, because the females find males who think with the heads on their shoulders to be boring, as they want the males who do nothing but feel with their hearts on their sleeves. This is why artists have groupies but philosophers don’t (and why you have relatively few female philosophers as compared to male philosophers)
“He just can’t compete with the likes of Mr. Al/Varpole/Steele/Torvus Butthorn/Josephine/etc.”
Well, obviously, I can’t compete with that guy in terms of popularity, because if we were in college, he’d be the class clown party-animal who always manages to somehow regularly score home-runs with the gurlz despite them claiming to hate him (i.e. standard frat-boy) and I’d be the straight man/Charlie Brown who’s never even gets to first base with the ladies ever 😛
“Speaking of sexbots, was it ABNOY who thought they’d make women obsolete?”
Well, it could relegate human-to-human pairbonding relationships to being an exotic fetish…
Sorry, Abnoy, you don’t come under the heading of a man who thinks with his brain, not a bit of it. Though you may well be less boring than Diogenes, I’ll grant you that.
I like men who can manage to think and to feel and are ashamed of neither, and who actually grasp that “people” encompasses a few billion humans who aren’t identified as “straight white men”. Funny thing is, there are an awful lot of the thinking, feeling, decent men around, far more than your gender-stereotyped notions would allow. But they don’t exist in the MRM. The fact that they are intelligent is why they’re not there.
What you guys refuse to get is that there are so few of you, that you’d probably never be able to afford this whizz-bang robot technology you’re always on about, and that the vast majority of humans like other humans, in whatever combination that happens to be, and look to them for companionship, happiness, families of whatever sort, and so on. The existence of a few hundred, even a thousand, whiny misogynist internet warriors doesn’t change that, let alone make anyone except themselves redundant. And if it did – I am far from the only woman (or man) who would rather be “redundant” than have anything to do with such losers. MRAs and MGTOWs who like to prattle about how you don’t need women have got it backward. Do what you like to claim you are, instead of just obsessing about your straw-women online. Take yourselves out of the dating pool, out of society, please – and don’t let the door hit your arses on the way out.
” “He just can’t compete with the likes of Mr. Al/Varpole/Steele/Torvus Butthorn/Josephine/etc.”
Well, obviously, I can’t compete with that guy in terms of popularity, because if we were in college, he’d be the class clown party-animal who always manages to somehow regularly score home-runs with the gurlz despite them claiming to hate him (i.e. standard frat-boy) and I’d be the straight man/Charlie Brown who’s never even gets to first base with the ladies ever 😛 ”
Interesting!! Mr. Al is an Alpha now.!!! Must be all the assholery that does it!
““Hey ABNOY? Do you get that not targeting women means cutting your potential audience in half? This isn’t like targeting to adults here or something.”
And this should concern me how, exactly? I’m not an investor nor a stockholder/shareholder in the movie’s revenues, am I now?”
..because you were discussing How Things Should Be, which means things that do matter to actual investors >.<
“Yeah, because the females find males who think with the heads on their shoulders to be boring, as they want the males who do nothing but feel with their hearts on their sleeves.”
First, who said I’m a woman? You’ve been around long enough to have caught that I use gender neutral pronouns. Or were you calling me a male with his heart on his sleeve? O.o?
Second, *dies laughing* I can assure you that intelligent men, well grounded men, whatever-the-fuck-you-where-going-for men, have no trouble being found interesting. Thinking is actually quite hot. Thinking anime represents reality? Not so much.
Also, score one for talacaris!
Seconding the recommendation for the Uglies series and for anything by Tamora Pierce. Lord those bring back memories, I got them from my school library when I was a bit older than nine but I reckon they’d be fine for her.
I’ve still got loads of the books I read when I was younger so when I get home I’ll look on my shelves and come up with some more.
They might be a bit old for her but something to remember for when she’s older are The Tales of the Otori. Really cracking books, some good female characters and were what made me become interested in Japanese history and traditional culture.
They don’t score perfectly on Feminist principles but Ursula K. LeGuinn’s Wizard of Earthsea books are great and would be age appropriate.
@historophilia,I am bookmarking all suggestions so keep ’em coming
BigMomma, what about A Series of Unfortunate Events?
@thenatfantastic, yup, got them (and they have been loved)
Yeah, just after I posted that I remembered that my 8yr old sister has already read most of them so they’ll probably be a bit young for her.
Then I also remembered that the Amelia Bloomer Project exists purely to write lists of books for children aged 0-18 with strong feminist messages.
Good, good. Giving book recommendations are my favorite things!
And on a more general note, always tell people that they should get their kids to read the classics of children’s literature, even if they do have problems with them.
So stuff like:
101 Dalmatians
Black Beauty
Just So Stories
The Box of Delights
The Chronicles of Narnia
The Little Princess
The Secret Garden
Tom’s Midnight Garden
Obviously they all have problems being products of their time but I think it’s important that children do read them, they are an important part of the Literary Canon and if kids read “old” books at an early age they are more likely to be willing to read the Classics when they get older. At least I found this in the case of myself and my childhood friends.
I suggest that you discuss any issues to do with gender or race in these books with your daughter so she’s aware of them and encourage her to ask you any questions.
However if she’s anything like me she will likely notice the worst ones herself. I remember being infuriated at the way girls were presented Enid Blighton at a very young age and being very uncomfortable with the way ethnic minorities were portrayed and being confused as to exactly why Lucy wasn’t allowed a sword in the Chronicles of Narnia.
A book which I adored as a child which does have some problems is The Little White Horse. There are lots of issues about what is considered good behaviour for a woman and in terms of gender relations but the heroine, Maria is brave and spunky and knows her own mind and there are some very good female characters. Also some of the most positive and important relationships in the book are female friendships. Relgion plays a strong role in the book but it’s explicit rather than metaphorical as in Narnia so it’s easier to address.
It’s also utterly beautiful in it’s language and the world it creates. I highly recommend it.
Oh and the Silver Brumby. It’s an Australian Classic.
“What you guys refuse to get is that there are so few of you, that you’d probably never be able to afford this whizz-bang robot technology you’re always on about,”
Ahem…
http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/04/27/indias-worsening-gender-imbalance/
http://theweek.com/article/index/213155/chinas-looming-man-surplus
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/sex-selection-abortions-lead-to-160-million-missing-girls/
And remember, the stereotype of the Chinese/Indian IT male nerd?
For a 9 year old, pretty much any Zilpha Keatley Snyder.
I love you guys
>Oh, I don’t know, maybe the fact that MOST of the main characters are male? And too, the lack of an obvious character for what was then in that milieu, the average female reader, to identify with (…)
I dunno about you, but one of my favourite MCs is an insufferable asshole space princess with family issues. I can identify with those.
Abnoy: Oh, I don’t know, maybe the fact that MOST of the main characters are male?
Ah, so the bible was aimed at men, and the Bagavad Gita’s target audience was gods.
The Edda’s weren’t aimed at all those who spoke norse, but just at dudes.
What reductionist twaddle. Want to know what Tolkien’s audience was… read his correspondence.
And this should concern me how, exactly?
Well you seem awfully cranky that women are paying attention to the lack of men. They seem to think they are in the target audience, and you have your knickers in a twist. It seems to be affecting you.
Hah, as I noticed the regulars around here sure do get bored when one of their enemy actually makes such sense that not even they can ignore it.
Could you point to some examples. Explication of the irrefutablity of the arguments is in order.
Wow, just because female and “people-of-color” characters don’t appear for the most part in a single fantasy trilogy (albeit the original one of it’s genre)
Right, the seminal work, which shapes the genre, leaves women out, and we are supposed to say, “that’s cool, it’s not like women matter”.
Compare that to this…Of course, if the work is inciting it’s target audience to do something that would affect you negatively, then of course, you have the right to get involved, but I fail to see how the LOTR negatively affects females at all.
Erasing them isn’t a harm, so they ought to shut up and make you a sammich, right? (mind you, saying that to some women of my acquaintance might be unpleasant, they have large knives, and can bake).
Clearly you aren’t familiar with Mr. Al’s work. You two could have a race to the bottom to see who’s more pathetic.
Oh for fuck’s sake, no one here is saying you can’t have stories that don’t include women, successful stories at that. That’s part of the point though, that there do tend to be a lot more (very successful) male-centric stories and yet the world isn’t just all men. And even in the case of a lot of the stories a lot of commenters have offered up as good examples of very good fantasy with female leads or more female-centric storylines most of those still include a lot of men, often in very key roles. Which I don’t necessarily see as a bad thing, more that it seems more feminist leaning storylines tend to tell a story of male and female characters interacting as equal partners in the storyline, rather than as one main set of movers of the storyline and another set of people who are there primarily for taking care of the home front. Which, you know, would be cool to see more of.
It’s not necessarily the creation of female-less stories that’s problematic (though that’s part of it) it’s also very much that these male-centric stories are seen in our culture as normal, expected, mandatory even, and female-centric stories are generally given much less acclaim, attention or respect. Female-centric stories are seen as outliers.
Or did you miss the part where people have already listed a lot of fantasy by and about women that doesn’t receive as much acclaim? We already are creating our own media and we have already shown that there is a demand (see also, Bridesmaids, Hunger Games). The problem is (well again, part of the problem), Hollywood movie makers continue to try to ignore it in lieu of targeting the all important 18-35 white male demographic that according to them can’t be arsed to watch more than one token hot lady kick ass (and of course, not nearly as much ass as the doods). And a lot of publishers (though I think it’s less of a problem in the publishing industry) still try to push more male-centric stories, or at least Which really says a lot about how negatively a lot of producers and publishers view men and boys.
Yeah, you obviously missed that part. But I mean, I suppose we should be expected to change the current media climate WITHOUT criticizing it. Don’t kid yourself. There’s a name for people who are the only ones who think they’re making any sense and it ain’t rational.
Also, this
proves you are a complete tool fighting without a clue to stand on. “Quit your bitching ladies that writer lady gave you a super smart girl sidekick to the boy wizard wunderkind and his other boy sidekick! Jesus, what more do you want?”
Yeah, neither you or Steele are getting any homeruns, champ. You’re both pretty good at striking out tremendously though.
Anyway, on to much more fun topics, @Big Momma, I’m thirding (fourthing? I’ve lost track) the recommendation for Scott Westerfeld’s Uglies series. It’s fun and fast paced and surprisingly poignant for a series that on the outset you’d think isn’t necessarily too deep. I’d also recommend his steampunk/alternate WWI history series, Leviathan. Aside from being very fun, imaginative reads, Deryn Sharp is a very likeable, funny character to read, she’s become one of my new favorites. Plus, I admit, I have a huge heart for Mr. Westerfeld as a YA author in general, particularly after his “Think of the Parents” rebuttal/mockery of the pearl clutching “ZOMG THE KIDS R ALL READING DARK HORRIBLE VAMPIRE STUFF WHATEVER SHALL WE DOOOO?!?!” article that was in the WSJ last year. I’d also recommend Legend, by Marie Lu (which conveniently has another book in the series coming out this month) and Divergent, by Veronica Roth. She also might like some Gail Carson Levine, Ella Enchanted, The Two Princesses of Bamarre, and Fairest are ones I enjoyed. Oh, also some Lloyd Alexander, Chronicles of Prydain. Those might be a bit easier for her, but they’re very well written, very fun reads if she hasn’t read them yet.
@Abnoy: I always felt that if you can’t write diverse characters then you shouldn’t be a writer. When I write with a male protagonist I never think to myself “Hmm…what would a guy think in this situation?”, I just fucking portray the character as a human being for heaven’s sake.
@Big Momma
Someone here recommended (brought up?) Martha Wells’ Books of the Raksura and they are really fun. The sex parts of it are (I think) good for being mostly matter-of-fact and offscreen, if you will. Lots of fun stuff about gender and bodies in those. It has a male protagonist, but in a very traditionally female role, almost so much so that I forget he is a he. Plenty of very strong women in the books as well. If the person who recommended them sees this, am I forgetting something that would make them non-9 y.o. appropriate? (Also, thanks for turning me on to the series!)