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Merry Man Boobz Christmas and/or Happy Tuesday! (Also, nominate your favorite troll of 2012.)

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Merry Christmas, to everyone who celebrates it. To everyone else, Happy Tuesday!

After you’ve finished off your Christmas and/or Tuesday dinner, please nominate your favorite troll(s) for Man Boobz’ Second Annual Troll of the Year competition!

Also, there’s no reason why we can’t have more than one category for the troll awards. Suggest some inventive categories!  Most Persistent, perhaps?

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pecunium
8 years ago

Here is a great Christmas Present. Dude harrassed a woman, she blew him off, he persisted, she sent screencaps to his mother.

Then he tried to fat-shame her.

She lit him up like a roman candle.

http://jhameia.tumblr.com/post/38890853836/cocoku-deeplezstonerwitch-sugaryumyum#

lauralot89
8 years ago
lauralot89
8 years ago

@Pecunium: I saw that the other day on Tumblr. It was glorious.

MordsithJ
8 years ago

Whatever happened to Peter-Andrew Nolan (c)? Did he go to jail or something?

lauralot89
8 years ago

Oh damn, the Bingo Project is only a continuation of the pull-ups/upper body strength trainwreck. How long was he on about that?

Carnation
Carnation
8 years ago

@ Pecunium

In its essence, I think the entire MRM is a troll movement. Diehards like JtO and Pierce Harlan relish the audiences that they get but I think are true believers. A guy like Chapin I think tries to market his brand of ultra-right politics on the back of it (figuring that a lot of younger, disfranchised dudes will identify). The overwhelming majority of the handful of bloggers and “activists”… They contain a very high proportion of trolls, vying for attention.

Carnation
Carnation
8 years ago

@Pecunium (again)

Respectfully… I don’t think she should have carried out that threat. His mom would have been really upset by that.

pecunium
8 years ago

Carnation: Realistically… he should never have harassed her. He was so secure in his “manliness” that he was offensive as all fuck (come blow me for fifty bucks, then I’m going to come in your ass). She called him on it, and then he got all religious about how “oh that was bad, I’ll make it up to you”.

Fuck that shit. He made his bed. He knows what he did was wrong. I don’t think he’s going to stop. I don’t even think her sending it to his mother is going to stop him.

Not the first time.

Assholes like him count on women not being able to affix repercussions to the shit they fling. She made some of it stick to him (I hope).

Carnation
Carnation
8 years ago

I don’t disagree. What I’m saying is that his mom had nothing to do with any of it, and she would be probably the most hurt out of the whole sorry mess. She could’ve (should’ve) reported him to POF.

pecunium
8 years ago

POF?

The thing is… yes, his mother will be hurt. But it’s not as if there is any other sort of sanction one has to hand. The cops won’t care. The phone provider won’t care (they will just say, “block him”). He’s hurting people, willfully, and repeatedly.

He obviously cares what his mother thinks. Which means telling her will have some effect. He did a shitty thing. There ought to be some recourse when someone is hurt by it. If the only one available is to rat him out to his mother, so be it.

Because the hurt here isn’t that he did something bad to his mother… it’s that she finds out what sort of a shit he is. He’d still be that sort of asshole if she didn’t know; she’d just be protected from finding out.

pecunium
8 years ago

Ah.. the dating service.

Yeah, the odds are they will just say to block him. Not a reasonable response. That’s just putting it back onto him to behave; which he clearly isn’t.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

If my kid was acting like that I’d want to know about it.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I mean, I’m not too keen on the fact that she went and looked up his details on other sites, that’s going into “nope” territory for me, but if there’s an issue with what she did it’s that (ie invasion of privacy), not that his mother might be upset to find out that her kid is a jerk.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

The dude should be ashamed. If telling his mom (which he was clearly worried about) makes him think twice next time he gets the urge to show his ass, I’m all for it.

pecunium
8 years ago

Cassandra: Actually the ease with which she was able to find him elsewhere is part of the reason I think telling his mother is ok.

He’s that confident that what he’s doing is harmless to him that in a setting (a dating service) where one should expect people to try and get some further information he is brazen about harassing someone.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

See, I would never think to look someone who I encountered on a dating service up on any other forum unless I was setting up an actual date, and probably not even then. I’m just not down with any sort of taking a dispute from one forum to another, or with internet sleuthing, it feels creepy and invasive to me – it’s what trolls do, basically. No doubt this guy was a jackass, but I’m still not really comfortable with the idea of that triggering a search for more personal info on him with revenge in mind.

I feel like the feelings of the mother are completely irrelevant to this conversation, and I’m not sure why Carnation even brought that part up.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

With any kind of luck his mum’ll have his guts for garters after that.

pecunium
8 years ago

If it were me, I don’t think it would have been out of a desire for revenge. When someone I don’t know shows up to start some sort of personal interaction, I am curious about them. Someone comes to my blog and wants to engage me in some oddball bit of tangential political discussion… I look them up.

I want to know where they are coming from; I’d like some idea of just what sort of argument they are going to make/what they will respond to. It may be because I’ve had a lot of people who are the sort Dave doesn’t let out of moderation decide to try and take a strip off of me; or score points in debates going on elsewhere by attacking me.

But when someone is a gold-plated asshole… I want to know who they are, because I want to know how close they are to me.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I just don’t do that sort of thing unless I feel like I might be in immediate danger, and even if I did I wouldn’t reveal the information to anyone else. Even when Mr Al was being super creepy I never tried to find any more info on him, because it feels weird and unethical to me.

katz
8 years ago

Surely there’s less of an expectation of anonymity on a dating site than on the general internet?

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

I would have done the same thing in the same situation. I’m generally too lazy to look someone up, but if some chucklefuck thinks it’s OK to behave that way, I’d look.

The only time I’m not too lazy is when we get irate, profane, abusive emails at work (I have one that’s such a work of swearing art I almost want it cross stitched on something). I just like seeing who cares THAT much about what we do. I found one guy’s mug shot.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Obviously I’m in the minority here, but the idea of tracking someone from one venue to another just sets off my “nope!” meter big time. Granted that it was funny to see him go from “lol I can bully you and you can’t fight back” to “please don’t tell my mommy”, but I still feel sort of uncomfortable with the whole thing. If she hadn’t posted the conversation to Tumblr I might feel less weird about it.

katz
8 years ago

Cassandra, I generally agree with you.

howardbann1ster
8 years ago

@Cassandra: I’m similarly uncomfortable with it, but I’m generally going to give more latitude to somebody who was a target. (uncomfortable parallels with other internet-goings-on I have been following)

Is using troll tools automatically wrong all the time?

Didn’t we have this discussion about the Redditor who was outed? The one behind all the seriously creepy stuff?

There’s not a lot of clear bright lines in the sand here. And saying that using troll tools is automatically wrong will eventually (if not immediately) end up as ‘you can’t defend yourself, if they attack you there you have to swallow shit.’

So… I dunno. I dunno about this case, I dunno about other cases, and I’m not sure which principle ought to trump.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

For me the bright line is “I think this person might have serious intent to harm me”. Obviously everyone will draw their lines in different places, and I wouldn’t say I’m outraged by this particular case or anything, it just falls into the “I wish the internet wasn’t like this” category.

Also, and this is totally a personal preference, I don’t tend to engage with guys who pull that crap at all. My logic is that when a guy does something like that he’s basically looking for a reaction, not for sex, ie what he’s hoping for is to get a woman flustered and upset. So I feel like engaging with people like that usually ends up making them happier than they deserve to be. I usually respond by shutting them down right away, like “I don’t talk to assholes” or “This is why you can’t get laid” or just “Bye”, and then block them. Sometimes I might go for a more detailed response if I happen to feel like it, but I never give them a chance to argue back or in any way get the satisfaction of ongoing engagement. Obviously that’s a personal preference, and everyone can figure out for themselves what they’re most comfortable with and what might be the best approach with that particular asshole. I deal with crass comments from men in the same way offline too, if and when it’s possible.

katz
8 years ago

And saying that using troll tools is automatically wrong will eventually (if not immediately) end up as ‘you can’t defend yourself, if they attack you there you have to swallow shit.’

I think I understand and sympathize with you here; I’m thinking, for instance, of those pronouncements that tone trolling means that being an asshole is always allowed, but telling someone they’re being an asshole is never allowed. (Correct me if that’s completely not what you’re thinking; don’t want to put words in your mouth.)

That said, I think most troll tools are troll tools because they’re useless. Think of stupid troll logic: Sure, we could use stupid logic, but what would that accomplish?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Actually one of the reasons I like commenting here so much is that most of our trolls aren’t classic lulz trolls, they’re very serious about the things they say. Classic lulz trolls, like the one who was banging on about hirself in the other thread, alternately bore and irritate me, and I don’t feel like there’s any point in engaging them at all.

amandajane5
amandajane5
8 years ago

Well, when reading the whole conversation, she did actually just immediately try to shut him down. Is it because she didn’t immediately block him and threw what he said in his face that bothers you? I’m having trouble with you calling her out for exposing him to the sun.

athyco
8 years ago

I don’t know that I’d do the exposing, but I do intend to have it in my response arsenal.

“Wanna be fuck buddies?”

“Have you seen this?” (tinyurl here)

Then, block. The sheer number of likes and reblogs in the notes just may be a deterrent. Heck, someday we may be able to shut the approach down with a “joshbeck44” rather than a “nope.”

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

It’s the you pissed me off on site X so I decided to go dig up more info about you that doesn’t quite sit right with me. I just don’t understand why people do that, and I have a consistent cringe reaction even when the people it’s being done to are horrible.

I think there’s a risk versus reward element to what I’m feeling too – basically I feel like it’s not going to do much to actually hurt the man who was doing the harassing, given that society is in general just fine with men harassing women, but that it could result in some sexist dude/group of dudes then deciding to persecute the woman in question in much more dangerous ways. It’s her call to make, obviously, but I wouldn’t do it.

(I also feel like the term “calling out” is being misused in this case. Calling her out would be going “you shouldn’t have done that” to her directly, which I have no interest in doing. The idea that it’s not OK for me to go “this makes me uncomfortable” doesn’t sit right with me either. I can shut up about it if people would like me to, but the idea that a feeling of discomfort isn’t OK seems odd to me.)

howardbann1ster
8 years ago

I feel like part of this conversation is leftover stuff we didn’t talk about from A) the JtO “self-doxing” thing and B) the reddit doxing thing.

Or maybe stuff we didn’t agree on then.

And I just wrote a really long post about it with lots of stuff that is just absolutely ripe for intentional misunderstandings of the troll variety, and re-considered.

I think we haven’t settled the basic premises enough to have this discussion.

And even just trying to write them down in a series of yes/no questions is making me further doubt going any further with this line of thought.

So… I’m uncomfortable the one way, and I’m uncomfortable the other way. I’m uncomfortable with tracking people down to their real-life identities. I’m uncomfortable with judging the victims of harassment for what they felt necessary to do. That leaves quite a bit of ambiguity all around.

That’s all I’ve got.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I seem to fall consistently on the “nope to anything even close to doxxing unless a crime is about to be/has been committed” side of the line, which iirc is kind of an unpopular position. I’m super uncomfortable with outing of gay people too, even if they’re politicians with a horrible track record, so I think maybe the core of the argument here is differing ideas about privacy or the expectation of it that’s reasonable. Although with outing part of my issue is also that I feel like it plays into the idea that gay is a bad thing to be, in terms of how it plays out in the media.

Part of my discomfort in situations like the one we’re talking about here is definitely a concern that it might backfire in the sense of making the guys who go after women’s personal info with the intention of causing them real-life harm feel more justified in doing so. My “nope!” reaction definitely got stronger after one of our more persistent trolls tracked me down on a dating site and attempted to use the info he found there to intimidate me into silence on the topics that he wants me to shut up about.

(Didn’t work.)

amandajane5
amandajane5
8 years ago

I see where you’re coming from, and it is a grey area, but I’m still totally okay with what she did. I think the assumption of anonymity by people who do nothing but spew hate should be called out.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

But that’s part of the problem – who defines “spew hate”, and how do we get everyone on the same page about that and prevent that logic being misused to hurt innocent people? Because if you look at something like RegisterHer, Elam and co argue that the women they use it to harass were put on there for “spewing hate”. Basically my concern is that if the idea that it’s OK to dig up info on people who you don’t like and make it public becomes acceptable, then it will end up making it easier for very nasty people to use the internet to hurt people in vulnerable groups.

(And it’s already way too easy.)

katz
8 years ago

^Yeah, that’s the whole problem: As soon as you say “People deserve these basic courtesies unless they do X,” or otherwise reduce inalienable rights to alienable ones, you’re tacitly allowing other people to make the same judgment with their own values of X.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

On a lighter note, I’m genuinely surprised that MRAs (or PUAs) haven’t decided that the block option is misandry and should be removed.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

*DERAIL ALERT*

The pond at Home is bearing at last and Mr K and I got in our first skating session of the winter!

Memo to self: do not go skating with a dog who does not grasp that banging into the back of one’s knees is not a good idea.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“Memo to self: do not go skating with a dog who does not grasp that banging into the back of one’s knees is not a good idea.”

Dogs generally suck at not sliding on ice, so it might be better to keep the doggie off the ice entirely. I realize that’s about as easy as herding cats!

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

LOL it was our fault, really. Quadrille came out on the ice for the first time last year, and yeah, was slippy-slidy all over the place. This year he seemed to be much better at it (he must have sneaked in some practice while I wasn’t there!) but he couldn’t resist coming around behind while Mr K and I were doing a sort of psuedo-walz and going WHACK into back of his knees. Result: heap of humans, dog and cat disappearing in high dudgeon. (Katie had been riding on my shoulder). Thank goodness we don’t bruise over There, we’d have been as purple as our knitwear!

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

Woah, how did I miss this post? BRB diving into all 300+ comments

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Lol, the best part of that mental image might be the cat perched on your shoulder, I was unaware they tolerated such things!

emilygoddess – I have no clue how you missed it but the 300+ comments are a laugh a minute. Hope you enjoy steele’s attempts to defend himself against charges of Biggest Abuser of English.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Katie was keen on sitting on shoulders all her earthly life, and still does it now, though if I’d ever gone skating on this side I doubt she’d have wanted to know. When we visited the US last year she popped in while we were at the Milwaukee Museum of Art – it was a cack seeing her riding around on Mr K’s shoulder in a place WHERE CATS AREN’T ALLOWED just because nobody else could see her and she could get away with it. Once a brat, always a brat.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“Once a brat, always a brat.”

Lol, too true!

Since I got woken up by the fish tank lights at fuck-o’clock, I’m calling it a night. Goodnight guys!

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Niters Argenti! 🙂

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

Otis’ enduring obsession with pull-ups was hilarious, but he veered into unfunny territory with the racism. Skyrimjob’s defense of Hitchens was gold, but you need more than one good showing to be a real contender for TOTY, IMO. Initially, I was gonna vote for Doctor Professor Pell Attorney At Law, but Steele had a heck of a showing in this thread. “Toe the dogma” is amazing. Now I don’t know which to choose!

Meller brought the funny with the hard chairs rant, but blaming child prostitutes for victimizing the poor johns was beyond the pale, and if there’s a Worst Person award he gets my vote.

Best FemRA is probably DriverSuz, with the bizarre worship of her son.

Shut Up/Tedious Pontificator Who Can’t Take A Hint Award can go to Diogenes. Ruby’s a pain and she won’t go away, but at least her appearances are brief.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

Kittehs’ Help, is the kitteh a Russian Blue? Mine likes to ride on shoulders, too – apparently it’s a breed trait.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Emilygoddess – that was Tom Martin with the chairs and child prostitutes (though I shudder to think what would happen if anyone asked Meller what he thought about either subject).

Katiekins is a common grey tabby, though I suspect she has a dash of Oriental in her, just from her long, lean build and Siaaaaaaameeeeeeeese vooooooiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice and general attitude. Or cattitude, perhaps. 🙂 This is her from about eight years ago. Her tail isn’t naturally stubby, it was amputated after she got into a fight and a bite infected the bone (and the idiot vet kept saying she just had inflammation).

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

So this has turned into the light relief thread? In that case, check it out – the dumbest professional musician of all time may have identified himself. This guy makes our trolls sound smart. Normally I don’t like to make bass player jokes, but…

http://www.metalsucks.net/2012/12/13/former-attack-attack-bassist-john-holgado-is-the-stupidest-human-being-ever/

The part about the puppy is particularly touching. He tried to train it for 3 days, you guys! How’s that for diligence?

pecunium
8 years ago

Did Holgado decide to use Steele’s lexical stylings as inspiration? He has so thoroughly channeled him one almost assume direct mentorship.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I think the pupil may even have surpassed the teacher.

Steele, rejoice! We finally found someone who’s a worse writer than you are! Of course he didn’t finish high school, so, um…maybe you shouldn’t celebrate too much.