So the other day someone went to the Men’s Rights subreddit with some concerns about the movement’s inclusiveness – or, rather, its lack thereof. “I’d be a lot more inclined to follow this movement,” this person wrote,
if it was more inclusive of the issues of other men, such as those of colour, homosexuality and those who identify as males. But as it stands even when you quote prison statistics as a form of sexism, you flat out ignore the ethnic make up of those statistics and the last time I saw y’all chatting about queer rights? I can’t actually remember, it’s been even longer since something along those lines came on the front page.
Naturally, the fine folks of the subreddit responded with a big “nuh-uh!”
Some suggested that the Men’s Rights movement is already quite inclusive enough, thank you very much. A few offered the existence of GirlWritesWhat, an actual female lady woman MRA, as proof of inclusiveness. I’m not quite sure how that has to do with race or LBGT issues, but hey: The MRM has a lady! (More than one, actually.)
Our dear old friend AnnArchist, who despite the name is not a lady, and who may or may not still be a mod (see below), helpfully explained:
Huh. I remember that month, too. Lots of Men’s Rightsers were angry about being associated with anything gay, and a lot of LGBT folks were angry about being associated with the Men’s Rights subreddit. I also recall that time when Kloo2yoo, the founder of the subreddit, attempted to make a token effort to be LGBT-inclusive. Oh, and the time a Men’s Rights redditor talked about how he would violently assault any trans woman who “tricked” him into having sex. Oh yeah: that Men’s Rights Redditor was a fellow called AnnArchist.
Others pointed out that they personally weren’t bigots or anything. Tyciol put it this way:
I wasn’t aware that darkbros, homobros and transbros were being discriminated against as policy. The free speech policy does inevitably end up with some closeminded folk being hostile of them, but I don’t think this means the movement is not inclusive. To be non-inclusive would there not have to be active exclusion?
I happen to think [wrestler] David Ortunga is a sexy black man who I would like to rub oil onto, and I respect the maleness of Larson Degado. Yet I’m not banned so… hm.
So if you’re not black, and you fantasize about rubbing oil on a black dude, that makes you a paragon of post-racial “inclusivity?” Apparently.
Other Men’s Rights Redditors want to be post-racial by not talking about race at all, suggesting that what the OP called inclusiveness could end up splitting the Men’s Rights movement in two, or three or four:
The trouble — well, one of many troubles — with this complaint is that there … really aren’t any significant numbers of black MRAs to speak of. When the Men’s Rights subreddit conducted its own demographic survey – alas, I’ve lost the link to it – there was, I believe, literally only one black MRA who stood up to be counted.
Lurker_lenore, meanwhile, suggested that focusing on anything other than men, indivisible was just plain wrong:
But if “age, race, sexual preference, and/or gender identity” somehow don’t affect the issue of equality, why would you assume that gender would? Shouldn’t we just be fighting for People Rights? Or, if that is too-species specific, why not Primate Rights, or Animal Rights, or Carbon-Based Lifeform Rights?
The best comments in the thread – by which I mean the most transcendently loopy — all come from Tyciol, whom we’ve met already, who raised a whole bunch of issues that no one dared to. Mainly becuase these issues were stupid.
For example, this one, touching on the terrifying topic of spermburgling.
I am interested in issues where transmen’s rights overlap with cismen’s rights. I’m not entirely clear on it, TBH. They’re our bros from another chromosone and all that, but I guess a lot of the issues just don’t currently apply, like procreation-related rights, probably less of a concern, since transmen (FtMs) don’t produce semen which can be misused, stuff like that.
And this even weirder followup:
I think FtMs are awesome and stuff but well… in terms of men’s rights… is it that, or is it male rights? I would like to identify some of the struggles we’d actually have in common. I’m all for standin’ up for’m since it’s the right thing and stuff but like… if it comes up in a dispute that they’re XX, doesn’t this usually sway to get them superior female-status consideration even if they detest that?
And all of these:
Tyciol seems to have a lot of questions, and a lot of opinions, about LGBT issues. And a deep love for language – in particular, the word “bros.” Here, in a different thread, we see the two interests combined in one intriguing comment:
In other words, the attitude of the Men’s Rights subreddit towards LGBT folks seems to be summed up pretty well by this parody poster prepared by Man Boobz Art Brigade solider Myoo, originally intended as a parody of the attitudes expressed over on A Voice for Men.
You can find approximately a gazillion million more parody posters over on the always entertaining Artistry for Feminism and Kittens blog.
(Oh, and on the bit about AnnArchist possibly being a mod: He used to be one, but a few months ago the mods all got new anonymous handles, and because of that I can’t say for sure if he’s still one.)
Cassandra — he was clearly persistent from the moment he mentioned it, the series is ~15 years old now.
It’s been my experience that a lot of Evangelion fans turn out to be guys who’re sort of otaku/MRA hybrids, so I can’t say I’m surprised.
Fair enough, I was more interested in the tech, I mean hell, a city that can go underground and still function? That’s all hollow earth-y, kid’s father is a royal asshole? Oh hey, that sounds familiar! (and on that note, I’m going to go deal with my asshole father long enough to make more tea)
Who the hell cares whether a film is supposedly symbolic of anything outside a discussion of said film? And seriously, “war between the sexes”? War on women by the Rethuglicans, but otherwise, gimme a break.
Quick quiz: who’s dumber, Abnoy the Asinine or Diogenes the Dumbass?
I’d say Abnoy. Diogenes seems to make contact with reality at least occasionally. Abnoy on the other hand…
ABNOY — Diogenes is at least smart enough to feign ignorance.
Just watch the complete version of the End of Evangelion: Evangelion: Death and Rebirth. You will understand everything I have been saying.
ABNOY, please listen very closely — I have watched it, and it makes no sense besides “dude’s father is an asshole” and “nice giant robots”. Any deeper meaning than that is apparently up for debate, not just a simple misunderstanding on my part.
If we’re making anime into real life, well then Gravitation just proves that all straight men will turn gay if you stalk them in a banana suit. Or maybe Yuki just needed to nearly kill Suichi to realize he really did like boys, all that romance novel stuff was just to pay the bills.
Frankly, I like the first one better, but I’ve long loved the banana suit crashing through the wall entrance. Suichi was over the top in all the right ways.
Oh wait! I know, it proves that women are just manipulative and men are better off having love affairs with each other! That must be it…
Congratulation, Abnoy, on demonstrating why so many people find otaku irritating.
“If you read/watch/listen you will understand EVERYTHING” is a cop out. You saw it. That doesn’t mean it’s “true”. Just look at the people who say, “read “x” Holy Book” and you will understand how the world really works”.
It’s delusional.
And now to work, to which I am probably going to be late, because I lazed about in bed reading some Manboobz when I should have been up and about.
Abnoy, fiction =/= real life. Nor do I have the SLIGHTEST interest in watching anime or any other form I’m not interested in just because you have some weird notion that it actually says anything relevant to relations between genders. You’re just being stupid here. Oh, and have you ever actually read any feminist books or sites (apart from, perhaps, flitting over to RadFemHub or some such)? Have you ever spoken to real women, who would probably surprise you with just how feminist they are? I mean, they expect things like equal pay for equal work, or control over their own bodies, or not to be harassed or attacked, or treated as lesser creatures, or to have the vote … funny how such basic expectations are part of feminism while setting up a matriarchy and castrating men aren’t. Sounds to me like you live in your little fantasy world and don’t meet real humans, just like soooo many MRM types.
If anyone is going to watch anime at Christmas it should definitely be this, not Evangelion. It’s one of my favorite Christmas movies.
Now that looks worth seeing!
(And yes, I know it’s NYE, not Christmas. I’m not religious so it’s all one presents-and-parties-and-family holiday to me.)
Pshaw, believe it or not, I was actually sincerely pro-feminist myself once in my youth (my country is arguably one of the best in the world when it comes to women’s rights) during my college years at university, since I am by nature egalitarian rather than elitist, but that was before I realized that in advanced stages, feminism suddenly turns rabidly on straight males. It’s not enough to make the sexes equal before and under the law i.e. equal liberties and opportunities (funny how women seem to forget equal duties and responsibilities,no?), oh no, they want to either by turn females into males (butch), males into females (fey), or both, or even destroy the very concepts of gender identity, and make us all either asexual or pansexual. Incidentally, this is also when I largely stopped being sympathetic to homosexuals as well. It’s not enough to be respectfully tolerated is it, no, they want to be accepted, standardized as the new normal, and even celebrated as being superior to us inferior “breeders”. Well, to hell with all that. As the main character in Fiddler of the Roof complained, I’m wiling to bend with the flow, but how far can I bend until I break?!
Yes, how dare those damn queers not be satisfied with your sneering, grudging tolerance and demand actual respect and equality, truly straight dudes are the most persecuted of all.
RE: ABNOY
Wow. What a nice ally you were. I weep for your departure. You seem like you were such a nice person before.
I ain’t superior to you for being gay. But I have yet to hear of gay gangs going out and stomping the poor straight folks for just wanting to be straight in public. Seriously, go chill out and watch Tokyo Godfathers. It’s awesome.
(I need to rewatch that movie.)
So I spent the day with family, and gifts, and setting up my new iPad, and thus missed ABNOY’s little meltdown. HOWEVER!
ABNOY, my dear dear boy, what ever makes you think that fae would be willing to have you?
I may need to add “pshaw” to the list of things you just can’t say in earnest.
pshaw? Could probably be said in earnest mockery, otherwise no, not really. What where the other ones from Steele btw? I want to say that “Let me just say” is on there, but I think I’m thinking of a Monty Python sketch involving the grim reaper…
This one —
http://youtu.be/yR5Z4n1TdSI
Abnoy: It’s not enough to be respectfully tolerated is it, no, they want to be accepted
The horror! That you can’t see the inherent lack of equality and egalitarianism in the idea that merely tolerating people isn’t enough to be called a just treatment of them says all that needs to be said about 1: your discriminatory/oppressive wordlview and 2: all I need to know about your skills at the level of critical thinking/close reading; based on your own words I can, with an easy mind, dismiss your critiques out of hand.
Because you are against actual equality.
Abnoy: I take it you’ve never experienced a life of being “tolerated” while considered “abnormal”.
Well shit, I got so annoyed at ABNOY I just made the bad joke, I didn’t actually type up any of the rest of my little rant (this is what happens when I’d rather just get back to my new toy instead of deal with the stupid)
“…but that was before I realized that in advanced stages, feminism suddenly turns rabidly on straight males”
Is that anything like how the plague is deadly in advanced stages? Or how ebola will have you bleeding out of your pores in advanced stages? I was unaware that political/social views have stages, advanced or otherwise.
“It’s not enough to make the sexes equal before and under the law i.e. equal liberties and opportunities (funny how women seem to forget equal duties and responsibilities,no?),”
You mean duties like how most feminists either don’t like military service, or want equal military rights and duties? Or how feminists tend to say that with when women make more than men (and/or he’s the primary caregiver), women should pay child support? Just which duties and responsibilities are we talking about here?
“oh no, they want to either by turn females into males (butch), males into females (fey), or both, or even destroy the very concepts of gender identity…”
Oh boy, if this isn’t a mess, idk what is! First, the closest feminists come to trying to “turn females into males” is saying that requiring women have shaved legs and armpits is patriarchal, and that if women don’t want to shave they shouldn’t have to. As for turning men into fey, I have no fucking clue what you’re talking about, nothing, I cannot begin to fathom where you got that idea. My literal only guess is that you think men shouldn’t show their emotions, that that’s womanly, and well…fuck you. Refusal to acknowledge your emotions is unhealthy, not unmanly. And wtf is with fey? Where in the world did you find that? Fae is another spelling of fairy, but fey? Never heard that one before.
“… and make us all either asexual or pansexual.”
Asexual — not really interested in sex // only sometimes interested // other definitions depending on the asexual. Pansexual — like bisexual but also interested in non-binary people. One could theoretically be some variety of asexual and pansexual. You’re welcome to be a sexually active heterosexual, or whatever else, as long as that suits you.
“Incidentally, this is also when I largely stopped being sympathetic to homosexuals as well.”
Color me surprised.
“It’s not enough to be respectfully tolerated is it, no, they want to be accepted…”
Do explain how you can “respectfully tolerate” someone you don’t accept. Ignoring someone, or worse, some aspect of them you don’t like, is anything but respectful.
“…standardized as the new normal, and even celebrated as being superior to us inferior “breeders”.”
Accepted as also normal. And the only people who consider “non-breeders” superior to “breeders” are the voluntary human extinction movement, as far as I know, they aren’t taken very seriously, let alone a core tenant of feminism, GLBT rights, or any of the other nonsense you’ve been rambling about.
“Well, to hell with all that.”
Well to hell with you then. Seriously, you think having to accept pansexual non-binary people is hard? Try being one and poly, and kinky, and oh look, you might get one decent lover a decade! (*sigh* why does the not-an-ex have to be 500 miles away?!)
“As the main character in Fiddler of the Roof complained, I’m wiling to bend with the flow, but how far can I bend until I break?!”
Oh see above, you’re full of shit if you think you’re the one who has to bend to a breaking point to make society happy. Get back to me when you and your lover are both non-binary, doing “opposite” gender roles within the relationship, and having to play at genital-matching gender roles for the rest of society. Trust me here, it’s quite a fun little game!
pecunium — tangentially related to that last bit, I got into it with my brother over wtf is the difference between a kilt and a skirt anyways!? His answer was nothing resembling the traditions of either, but some BS about how one is meant for men, my mother decided the difference was that men don’t have the legs for skirts *shakes head*
There is no difference. A kilt is a type of skirt. What it’s not is a dress.
The specifics of the skirt known as a kilt are these:
1: It’s made to measure.
2: It wraps 1 1/3rd times around the waist.
3: It’s pleated from hip-point to hip-point across the back.
4: The pleats flare from the back of the waist to the widest point of the rump.
5: It’s fastened with buckles.§
6: It falls to mid-knee.
§ Modern Kilts usually have belt-loops, as well as closures of some sort. This is more to allow one to hang gear, than to keep it from