Categories
a voice for men antifeminism men who should not ever be with women ever MRA oppressed men playing the victim sympathy for murderers

[TRIGGER WARNING; UPDATED] A Voice for Men commenter claims that the Newtown shooting is evidence of the oppression of men

Men’s Rights activists and others in the manosphere often complain that it’s unfair to link their movement to killers like the virulent antifeminist mass murderers Marc Lepine and Anders Breivik, even though the antifeminist, anti-woman ideology of these killers is oftem indistinguishable from MRA thought.

But the plain fact is that they make the links themselves. Whenever there is some sort of mass killing by someone who is driven at least in part by the hatred of women, it seems like it’s only a matter of time before some MRA steps up to, if not explicitly endorse the killer, at least suggest some sort of sympathy or empathy with him and/or to suggest that the killing in some way is an understandable or justifiable or even praiseworthy reaction to the the alleged oppression of men.

This time it seems to have happened with record speed. Over on the A Voice for Men forum, one commenter, GregA, compares the mass killer in Newtown today — whose motives are still completely unknown — with oppressed people rising up against tyranny in the Middle East:

AVFMgredonshooter

So far the only reply he’s gotten challenges this odious comparison, so that’s a tiny bit comforting.

Naturally, the MRAs will say that this commenter is some sort of feminist troll. But he’s made dozens of comments on the AVFM forums that are standard-issue MRA stuff – he seems to be a bit obsessed with the notion that feminist commenters online are being paid for commenting – and his comments in the past (at least those that I looked at) seem to have been generally well-received there.

EDITED TO ADD: If you would like to discuss the Newton shootings without having to think about this horrible comment of GregA’s, I’ve set up a separate no-trolls, no MRAs, thread for that.

EDITED TO ADD MORE: Meanwhile, over on A Voice for Men itself, one of the first commenters in a thread on the subject blames the shootings on, you guessed it, misandry:

AVFMshootermisandry

Meanwhile, AVFM “managing editor” Dean Esmay complains that feminists “will find some way or other to blame us in specific for this.” In case Esmay is reading this, I am not blaming the Men’s Rights movement for this shooting, mainly because we have absolutely no idea what motivated the shooter. What I am doing is pointing out that someone on AVFM’s own forum, someone who has previously posted there extensively, is comparing this murderer of children to some kind of freedom fighter, and another in the very thread you are posting in has decided (based on absolutely nothing) that “misandry” is to blame.

You may also recall the numerous comments from MRAs justifying or at least excusing, the Seal Beach shooter.

Here are some more MRA comments on the Seal Beach murders which I chose not to post at the time. These are from A Voice for Men. (In the original thread they weren’t next to one another; there’s more horrible stuff in the thread besides these two comments.)

AVFMsealbeachSalonNArcissism

AVFMsealbeachstu2

Are these guys “feminist trolls?” No. They are both long-time commenters at AVFM.

But again, pointing out these horrible comments is not the same as blaming the MRM for that shooting, or for the shooting today.

In the case of Lepine and Breivik, people linked them to MRAs because they had (or in the case of Breivik still has) virulently anti-feminist worldviews virtually identical with much of the stuff posted regularly on Men’s Rights sites, and other “manosphere” sties generally.

Presumably we will learn more about this shooter’s motivations, and then we can decide if anyone besides the shooter himself is to blame.

EDITED TO ADD ONCE MORE: Elam has now shut down the thread on A Voice for Men; as I write this the thread on the A Voice for Men forum is still up. I suggest you take a look at it and make screenshots. Elam says it’s because I’m “using comments from the thread in order to push his lies.” It’s not clear how quoting his followers (in full, without edits) is a “lie.” Apparently he’s unwilling to let his followers continue to post comments because, we can only assume, he knows they will say more horrific things, and people outside the AVFM cult might see what those inside it actually think.

Not, at this point, that there’s much doubt about what they think.

EDITED TO ADD STILL MORE: Meanwhile, over on The Spearhead:

SPshooter

As most of the readers here will know, the shooter was 20 years old, wasn’t a father and the shooting had nothing to do with any custody battle.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

266 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Pretty much. She was a walking illustration of logic fail, among other issues.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Let me tackle this first because it’s easier — “Your father thinks all Frenchmen are gay? How’d he get his wires so crossed, given the usual Frenchman = great lover trope?” — because they have a sense of fashion and a taste for good food, which no MANLY MAN would (dude would be an MRA if he could work a computer).

Now onto kysokisaen —

“Argenti I know you want to keep your guns…” — not really my guns for one, for two (TW: suicide</strong), no, I don't, I'd probably just blow my brain out, I'm not really all that stable at my worst.

"…but if the gun-having people can’t be trusted to keep dangerously unbalanced people away from dangerous guns, then the government will step in." — Most of us "dangerously unbalanced people" are only a threat to ourselves, but that's not really on topic. What is on topic is that there's no reliable way of determining who might be a danger at some point in the future (and hell, my latest psych med change had me half way to dangerous, so let's not go around thinking that properly medicating the mentally ill is the be all and end all solution)

"They have to, because there are clearly enough careless people willing to pass legally-obtained semi-automatics to people who absolutely should not have them." — Except a blanket ban on semi-auto guns would prevent that without having to bring the mentally ill into it.

"Will they do a shitty job? Almost certainly!" — Yep.

"Is our mental health system in any sort of shape that such a rule could be fairly and reasonably enforced? No." — Agreed.

"Does ‘keep medicated people away from guns’ sound like the kind of simple solution voters would love? Yes, yes it does." — Yeah, and it wouldn't work any. In most cases, once a proper set of psych meds is worked out, medicated psych patients aren't dangerous to anyone, including themselves. It's the people who refuse to seek treatment at all that you really need to worry about — the people with the sort of delusions that make them think that the gov'n wants to take their guns and thus they might need to go to war.

"You’re a mentally ill person who will defend the rights of gun nuts to have guns, but are you completely sure the gun nuts would do the same for you?" — I'm defending the idea that trying to repeal the second amendment is never going to work, for a variety of reasons, the "gun nuts" just being the loudest opponent.

And hell no I don't think they'd defend the rights of the mentally ill. Please try not to take this personally, but the problem I'm having here is that I don't think the people saying that the solution is keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill would either.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Fuck! I broke my tags, sorry y’all!

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
7 years ago

Let me tackle this first because it’s easier — “Your father thinks all Frenchmen are gay? How’d he get his wires so crossed, given the usual Frenchman = great lover trope?” — because they have a sense of fashion and a taste for good food, which no MANLY MAN would (dude would be an MRA if he could work a computer).

I should have guessed!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

@Jeff — “Unlike Australia, America has borders with 2 other countries, Canada and Mexico. So instead of criminals going to the corner to buy crack, they will be buying a box of 9mm ammo.
See my point?”

That’d still make procuring ammo similar to procuring drugs, since most of them are imported. It’d drastically reduce the amount of ammo available, while increasing the cost (and, if it did work out like drugs, decreasing the reliability of said ammo).

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Personal anecdote time! So, I’ve taken drugs in the past. If I could have bought them for cheaper, and without having to interact with sketchy people, and without breaking the law, I might still indulge at parties, etc. So the illegality of, say, cocaine, actually does impact the usage of it in at least some cases. Doesn’t stop everyone from getting their hands on it, but if you could walk into your corner store and just buy cocaine? Well, that was the case in the past, and people did indeed use it a lot more.

(Please note that I am not endorsing the War on Drugs in general or stupidity like jailing people for possession in particular.)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Also! In some parts of the world you can legally by amphetamines in pharmacies. I bought them in Thailand – you literally asked for “pink and white amphetamine”. Does that mean that they’re used more in those countries than they are here, where they’re more heavily restricted and more expensive, and harder to get? Yep!

(Before anyone gets the wrong idea, in Thailand they were marketed as a weight loss product.)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

(By which I mean, I wouldn’t advise attempting to procure or move through border control drugs of the not-legal variety in Thailand unless you have a burning desire to be executed.)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Oh hell, I’ll let people get the wrong idea — I’d rather enjoy doing acid again, if I could get it here, ‘cept my very few connections for such things are all in PA.

Actually, I will clear up one wrong idea — (TW: suicide) it doesn’t make me more nuts, years ago when I was debating suicide, I decided to at least do the tab of acid I had first, because hell, I wasn’t going to waste good acid…clearly I didn’t off myself.

And MDMA? That’s the only thing that’s ever let me actually talk about the causes of my PTSD (hey guys? I’m officially Dx’ed!)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“…unless you have a burning desire to be executed.”

Should we just TW: suicide this whole thread at this point? (Totally my fault, I know, but still)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I meant I don’t want people to get the wrong idea about Thailand and be stupid and get themselves in trouble while there. If people assume that I indulged in various recreational chemicals in my youth then that would in fact be the right idea.

(I’m such a perfect illustration of the PUA idea of how evil women fuck around with those terrible alpha males in their youth and hang out with disreputable people in general, no wonder it pisses them off so much that I don’t regret it.)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“I’m such a perfect illustration of the PUA idea of how evil women fuck around with those terrible alpha males in their youth and hang out with disreputable people in general, no wonder it pisses them off so much that I don’t regret it.”

Lol, take that, stir in bisexual and genderqueer, and *hello!* (oh the drunken flirting I used to do, damned)

By MRA standards I “got what I had coming” though…so yeah…still don’t regret most of it though. And oh boy was the weekend of debauchery fun, all the pot anyone could smoke, a shit ton of cheez-its and other munchies, hot wings, ouzo and vodka — that was the weekend I got a bit of a reputation for bring the party with me. Oh to be 19 again huh?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Eh, I still do the drunken flirting, and then sober flirting too actually. 19 was fun, but honestly so is 39.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

I would not have guessed you were that much older than me (27 here) — and I still flirt too, just only with people I already trust (all of whom seem to be asleep already! And I’m working on drunk! *sigh* it is ~4 am here)

This convo is sort of relevant though — 21+ is better as there’s no need to find someone to buy your booze. That is, with the drinking age in the US set at 21, those under 21 have to find a way to buy booze, which does discourage a certain amount of drinking. Thus, logically, making ammo harder to obtain would discourage a certain amount of shooting.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I doubt I’ll ever stop being flirty. It’s a personality thing, I think. Also funny that I come across as that young – not sure whether I should be amused or offended.

Our friend from the other thread will probably respond to the second paragraph with “but then only really determined teenagers will get booze!”, which, well, yeah, that’s kind of the point, trying to deter at least the people who aren’t absolutely determined and willing to plan their attacks out long in advance. The ones who are very determined and possessed of long term planning skills I’m not sure there’s any way to stop.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“Also funny that I come across as that young – not sure whether I should be amused or offended.”

Be amused — I was thinking we were fairly close in age, not that you were immature or anything (and people tend to guess I’m older than I am when they speak to me, I’ve seen more pain than anyone should…so it might be me and not you)

Back “on topic” — yeah, only really determined teens will get booze, that’s the flippin’ point. I’m not sure there’s any way to stop the ones with long term planning skills either — they tend to be loners, thus allowing them to plan without fear of discovery, but we can’t go around assuming that every loner is a mass murderer in the making, most are just introverts.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“I’ve seen more pain than anyone should…”

On that topic, I cannot imagine what these parents must be going through — it’s not just grieving, but all the questioning (should they have kept their kid home? but why would they have? but if only we had! — trauma is called such for a reason)

My heartfelt sympathy to them, it’s truly unfortunate that such evil exists in the world. I’m not the religious sort, but evil really is the only word for it. It’s bad enough to have the just world fallacy shattered, but to have it happen because your small child was killed? I really can’t imagine the pain they must be feeling.

lowquacks
lowquacks
7 years ago

Haven’t flirted in ages. I miss it. Someday soon.

RE: teens with grog, teenagers where I grew up generally (not necessarily – I look older than I am and found walking into bottle shops with an air of confidence easier than nerve-wracking bus trips with weed on me – anxious kid) found it much easier to get their hands on weed, which was mostly a net win for middle-class kids (less risky drug, cooler stories to tell, can make a bit of dosh selling) but a bit of a disaster for kids more likely to get caught

lowquacks
lowquacks
7 years ago

Also LOL at the fuckwit in the other thread suggesting Americans, if gun control licenses are tightened, will get their guns in notoriously gun-friendly Canada.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“teenagers where I grew up generally … found it much easier to get their hands on weed, which was mostly a net win for middle-class kids (less risky drug, cooler stories to tell, can make a bit of dosh selling) but a bit of a disaster for kids more likely to get caught”

Seconding all of that. Hell, I had an easier time getting MDMA and acid than booze for awhile. And, thankfully, those sorts of dealers are hippies, not gangsters.

lowquacks
lowquacks
7 years ago

@Argenti

Yep, same in Aussie suburbs, though there was an eccies drought for a bit.

scarlettpipistrelle
7 years ago

See, the MRAs are not only malevolent, they’re dumbos! Tacking this on to some father’s rights or custody rights issue, when the shooter wasn’t a father, really? What was the shooting supposed to be, preemptive? So it’s ok for angry guys to shoot OTHER people’s children? Welcome to the MRA universe! Near where I live, last fall, a 17 year old boy abducted a 10 year old girl on her way to school, and assaulted and dismembered here. Good thing the MRAs haven’t heard about that yet – I’m sure I’d cringe to hear their retelling. These MRAs, especially some of the commenters, are just vile people. Remember how they defended Josh Powell?

Wetherby
Wetherby
7 years ago

“Your father thinks all Frenchmen are gay? How’d he get his wires so crossed, given the usual Frenchman = great lover trope?” — because they have a sense of fashion and a taste for good food, which no MANLY MAN would.

The mere fact that they speak French would be a case for the prosecution in some mindsets.

More generally, I can’t help but recall the reaction to the 1996 massacre at Dunblane in Scotland, the UK’s closest equivalent to what happened yesterday. Unsurprisingly, this led to widespread hysteria and lots of knee-jerk overreaction – Warner Home Video withdrawing Natural Born Killers from its then-imminent video release being one well-publicised example – and later on the government, desperate to be Seen To Be Doing Things, banned private ownership of handguns altogether. Which, amongst other things, effectively banned the UK’s Olympic target pistol shooting team from being allowed to pursue their chosen sport.

But there was a massive elephant in this particular living room, which became very clear during the official inquest into the tragedy, after which the Chief Constable for the region quite rightly resigned – and that was that already existing laws should have prevented the killer from legally owning guns, and they simply hadn’t been applied.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

I still think banning the things makes it easier to prevent tragedies like this and Dunblane than hoping that complex laws are correctly applied 100% of the time. If legally owned guns are lying around, someone who’s not supposed to can still get their hands on them.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

I mean I saw a statistic today saying that last year in the UK, 8 people were killed by guns – there were over 10,000 in the US. Allowing for difference in population you’re still looking at 40:10,000 or 8:2000 depending on which way you do it.

Let’s not forget that the USA isn’t supposed to be a massive firearm free for all, there’s supposed to be quite strict rules about who can and can’t have guns, but they just don’t work.

BigMomma
BigMomma
7 years ago

@thenatfantastic, I’m a Scot and I’m kinda with you on this (given the Dunblane context). I take Wetherby’s point about the laws should have been applied but after having 2 kids 6 years apart, I’m all for avoiding complicated rules and having really straightforward ones that everyone can follow easily!

BigMomma
BigMomma
7 years ago

@cloudiah, I know I’m going back 2 pages, but I found that I had the first 30 comments from the AVFM thread up in a tab. I saved them for posterity and refreshed and sure enough, Elam had shut the thread down.

viola
7 years ago

It’s worth remembering that what we have here in the UK isn’t an armed police force and an unarmed populace. It’s an unarmed police force. The copper who knocks on your door to ask if you heard anything when next door got burgled hasn’t got a gun. There are specific firearms officers for when a particular job really calls for it.

Wetherby
Wetherby
7 years ago

It’s also worth remembering that fatal shootings of police officers – hell, even non-fatal shootings of police officers – are vanishingly rare in the UK.

One of the reasons the recent double killing of two police officers in Manchester had such a seismic impact wasn’t because they were women (although this was obviously good tabloid fodder in itself) but because it was apparently the first time that more than one British police officer had been killed in a single incident for several decades.

But the cultural divide between the US and UK is unbridgeably vast when it comes to this particular subject.

BigMomma
BigMomma
7 years ago

@viola, I *heart* that it’s an unarmed police force.

Tracy Bradley
Tracy Bradley
7 years ago

the whole cultural relationship that America has with guns is just really weird.

I agree. It’s just not quite the same in Canada. I know ppl who have guns (for hunting), and there isn’t the fetishization of gun ownership here.

To me this U.S./guns love affair is best summed up by watching the military channel, which busband does often. Show after show about weaponry, esp.different types of guns. Some of it is interesting, sure – but wow, a whole channel! About guns! And some war stuff now and then too, of course.

There seems to be a mythology in the US (among some people, not all) that involves a ‘guns made us what we are’ viewpoint. Imagine it’s hard to give up guns of any sort if they are embedded in your (personal) national identity, ie: “we’re a nation of scrappy bootstrappers who fight for what’s ours”, and such.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
7 years ago

Hunters do a lot of good, and that’s part of why the US has a love/hate relationship with guns. Deer hunters in the midwest donate their extra venison to our food pantries, and one deer makes 200 meals. Deer hunters also prevent overpopulation of deer, so fewer deer die from starvation or getting run over. That’s part of why I cringe when people have the reaction of “Ban ALL guns” rather than “Figure out which guns are practical and which are completely unnecessary for civilians”.

So a .22 to shoot squirrels makes sense. A .223 makes no sense unless you’re trying to kill a lot of people in a short time.

Hunters help food pantries

I can also understand when some people want revolvers and pistols for self defense. Our police refuse to enforce restraining orders, so it leaves abuse victims to fend for themselves. I personally rely on pepper spray for self defense, but I also understand the idea of “Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6”.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
7 years ago

RE: teens with grog, teenagers where I grew up generally (not necessarily – I look older than I am and found walking into bottle shops with an air of confidence easier than nerve-wracking bus trips with weed on me – anxious kid) found it much easier to get their hands on weed, which was mostly a net win for middle-class kids (less risky drug, cooler stories to tell, can make a bit of dosh selling) but a bit of a disaster for kids more likely to get caught

I guess it’s different everywhere. As a teen, I found it was easier to get booze than weed. Meth, on the other hand, is the easiest to get of all. I don’t know a solution on that, because it really is dangerous but it’s also very easy to cook. With the new shake and bake method, it’s even harder to fight.

Tracy Bradley
Tracy Bradley
7 years ago

That’s part of why I cringe when people have the reaction of “Ban ALL guns” rather than “Figure out which guns are practical and which are completely unnecessary for civilians”.

Agreed.

IIRC, here in Canada a lot of people have guns – we have one of the highest rates of gun ownership. What we don’t have are super-high rates of gun violence. That’s not to say we don’t have any, just that it’s much lower. Something like 30% of homicides are committed with guns here, closer to 70% in the US.

Differences are that we can own pistols, rifles, shotguns. No fully automatic weapons. Also can’t carry concealed weapons. You have to take a safety course, be background checked, and wait 28 days to get licensed to own a firearm. I think you have to renew your license every few years (5 years?)

Teal Deer: totally cool with ppl owning guns as long as there are enforced controls on type, carrying, etc.

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
7 years ago

I mean I saw a statistic today saying that last year in the UK, 8 people were killed by guns – there were over 10,000 in the US.

Yeah… and I saw a statistic today that said that 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot. I’d like to see the cite on that, because 8 does not pass the sniff test even a little.

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
7 years ago

The WHO reports 138 gun fatalities in 2009 in the UK. http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

I was trying to illustrate the disparity between outlawing and restricting ownership.

That link puts the number of homicides by gun at 18 in a year, 138 is where suicide is included. If you include suicide deaths in the US stats it bumps the number up from 11,000 to 31,513.

So 18:2200/90:11,000 without suicides, 138:6300/690:31,500 with.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

That link’s borked sorry, should lead here: http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

Wetherby
Wetherby
7 years ago

Yes, I was very suspicious of that 8 figure – if true, 2011 must have been a pretty exceptional year.

So I looked up what appear to be the actual figures for the last decade or so (the figures run from October to September), compiled by the UK Home Office, and found these:

2002/03: 80
2003/04: 68
2004/05: 76
2005/06: 49
2006/07: 56
2007/08: 53
2008/09: 39
2009/10: 39
2010/11: 58

NB: These are figures for England and Wales only, though apparently there were just two firearms-related homicides in Scotland in 2010-11, making the total 60. I imagine Northern Ireland statistics are compiled separately, but probably won’t be that different – the days when fatal shootings were tragically routine over there are thankfully long gone.

The silly thing is, 60 is just as potent a figure as 8, as it’s still clearly a minuscule fraction of 10,000 – so why did they feel the need to exaggerate?

Dvärghundspossen
7 years ago

According to this study by a Swedish criminologist http://www.criminology.su.se/polopoly_fs/1.65985.1323954414!/2011m2_Elisabeth_Norden.pdf , there’s a correlation between lethal violence and frequency of ownership of, er, small firearms… don’t know the correct English word here… you know, the ones you hold with one hand only? But not with ownership of firearms in general.

That kind of makes sense spontaneously. Sweden has a pretty high rate of firearms per capita (can’t find the statistics right now). Still, that’s mostly because a large percentage of the population are hunters. If you have a hunting license, you’re allowed to have certain firearms suitable for hunting. That’s basically long rifles, that you can’t possibly carry around under your jacket or anything. So it would be pretty complicated to use them for illegal violence.

katz
7 years ago

^Handguns?

Dvärghundspossen
7 years ago

*lol* Katz, that would be the word I was looking for! Ridiculous that I couldn’t come up with it since it’s so simple… Like “what are they called, these GUNS you can hold with one HAND…”

timetravellingfool
7 years ago

Woa, Dvarg, English is your second language? That is about the first time you’ve ever given any indicator that

timetravellingfool
7 years ago

oops. To continue- that is the first time you’ve given any indicator that I could tell, and I teach ESL. Fantastic!

Dvärghundspossen
7 years ago

Thanks Timetraveller! You would know if you could hear me though. In Sweden it’s mandatory to study English in school, but I only really learnt to speak it after I’d moved to a student dorm where about half the students were exchange students. There were an American girl, an Englishman, a Dutch girl, a Spanish guy, a Swiss guy, a Polish girl, a Russian guy, a French guy and a Bulgarian guy. And a few Swedes. We spoke English all the time since that was the only language everyone knew. However, everyone using English as their second language (that is, everyone but the American and the Brit) soon mixed up our respective accents to form one big mash-up accent. I lived there for three years. Now, it’s been twelve years since I moved out of that dorm, but that accent is still with me. Everytime I speak English with native speakers they try, in vain, to figure out where I come from…

timetravellingfool
7 years ago

@ Dvarg- tell them Atlantis!!

katz
7 years ago

There were an American girl, an Englishman, a Dutch girl, a Spanish guy, a Swiss guy, a Polish girl, a Russian guy, a French guy and a Bulgarian guy.

OMG, you lived in L’Auberge Espagnole!

eline
eline
7 years ago

I’m actually not sure if availability/legality has a direct connection with the use of drugs… Where I live you can buy pot from almost every corner of the city, but to be honest, it’s mostly tourists that buy it. There’s a pot culture, of course, and it’s used alongside booze and tobacco at pubs. But it’s by no means as popular as beer and wine is. And then we got Portugal that went even further and took penalty off hard drug use, too, and they didn’t get a massive surge in drug use. And as yet another example I have personal experience of is Finland, where people drink almost as much as in Russia and booze is highly restricted and taxed (unlike in Russia) and it doesn’t prevent people from drinking themselves to death.

I’d wager other social issues and cultural things have more to do with it than availability and legality alone, to be honest. But which cultural things etc. in which countries is another question.

eline
eline
7 years ago

I want an edit button…

Anyway, had to say about the guns as well, as I saw a comment about Sweden and guns. Right next door in Finland we got, if I recall right, the highest gun ownership rate AND the highest gun violence rate of Europe. But aside from the well-reported school shooting incidents, a good part of firearm violence happens when… yes, wait for it: a father kills his entire family, and then himself. Or cousins kill each other etc. violence that mostly affects the relatives of the perp.

I’m a bit distracted now to dig up statistics, but they’re out there, somewhere.