Men’s Rights activists and others in the manosphere often complain that it’s unfair to link their movement to killers like the virulent antifeminist mass murderers Marc Lepine and Anders Breivik, even though the antifeminist, anti-woman ideology of these killers is oftem indistinguishable from MRA thought.
But the plain fact is that they make the links themselves. Whenever there is some sort of mass killing by someone who is driven at least in part by the hatred of women, it seems like it’s only a matter of time before some MRA steps up to, if not explicitly endorse the killer, at least suggest some sort of sympathy or empathy with him and/or to suggest that the killing in some way is an understandable or justifiable or even praiseworthy reaction to the the alleged oppression of men.
This time it seems to have happened with record speed. Over on the A Voice for Men forum, one commenter, GregA, compares the mass killer in Newtown today — whose motives are still completely unknown — with oppressed people rising up against tyranny in the Middle East:
So far the only reply he’s gotten challenges this odious comparison, so that’s a tiny bit comforting.
Naturally, the MRAs will say that this commenter is some sort of feminist troll. But he’s made dozens of comments on the AVFM forums that are standard-issue MRA stuff – he seems to be a bit obsessed with the notion that feminist commenters online are being paid for commenting – and his comments in the past (at least those that I looked at) seem to have been generally well-received there.
EDITED TO ADD: If you would like to discuss the Newton shootings without having to think about this horrible comment of GregA’s, I’ve set up a separate no-trolls, no MRAs, thread for that.
EDITED TO ADD MORE: Meanwhile, over on A Voice for Men itself, one of the first commenters in a thread on the subject blames the shootings on, you guessed it, misandry:
Meanwhile, AVFM “managing editor” Dean Esmay complains that feminists “will find some way or other to blame us in specific for this.” In case Esmay is reading this, I am not blaming the Men’s Rights movement for this shooting, mainly because we have absolutely no idea what motivated the shooter. What I am doing is pointing out that someone on AVFM’s own forum, someone who has previously posted there extensively, is comparing this murderer of children to some kind of freedom fighter, and another in the very thread you are posting in has decided (based on absolutely nothing) that “misandry” is to blame.
You may also recall the numerous comments from MRAs justifying or at least excusing, the Seal Beach shooter.
Here are some more MRA comments on the Seal Beach murders which I chose not to post at the time. These are from A Voice for Men. (In the original thread they weren’t next to one another; there’s more horrible stuff in the thread besides these two comments.)
Are these guys “feminist trolls?” No. They are both long-time commenters at AVFM.
But again, pointing out these horrible comments is not the same as blaming the MRM for that shooting, or for the shooting today.
In the case of Lepine and Breivik, people linked them to MRAs because they had (or in the case of Breivik still has) virulently anti-feminist worldviews virtually identical with much of the stuff posted regularly on Men’s Rights sites, and other “manosphere” sties generally.
Presumably we will learn more about this shooter’s motivations, and then we can decide if anyone besides the shooter himself is to blame.
EDITED TO ADD ONCE MORE: Elam has now shut down the thread on A Voice for Men; as I write this the thread on the A Voice for Men forum is still up. I suggest you take a look at it and make screenshots. Elam says it’s because I’m “using comments from the thread in order to push his lies.” It’s not clear how quoting his followers (in full, without edits) is a “lie.” Apparently he’s unwilling to let his followers continue to post comments because, we can only assume, he knows they will say more horrific things, and people outside the AVFM cult might see what those inside it actually think.
Not, at this point, that there’s much doubt about what they think.
EDITED TO ADD STILL MORE: Meanwhile, over on The Spearhead:
As most of the readers here will know, the shooter was 20 years old, wasn’t a father and the shooting had nothing to do with any custody battle.
What Cloudiah said. Potentially good question, really bad time for it.
@Motty
I’m not entirely sure this is the right time.
Cloudiah: Dropping it.
Motty, you’re just echoing the “dear Muslima” shit Dawkins threw around. Yes, the situation, the loss of life and all the dreadful things in so many African countries (among others) are appalling. That doesn’t justify saying that because these children lived in an affluent country, their deaths are not appalling, and are not part of something terribly wrong in American society.
There’s also the basic fact that things happening at home, or in a place that is at least familiar, and in numbers one can grasp – numbers small enough to see individuals – DO affect people harder than mass deaths far away (“far” here being more than geographic).
In any case, this is not the thread to say “But what about the children in Africa.”
Additionally, the children you’re talking about (Motty) are in very complicated situations that most of us couldn’t begin to completely understand the context of, and where suggesting a solution would seem nothing more than an arrogant guess.
A bunch of kids shot in our country or one much like it is something that can be understood more viscerally.
@Leni –
Claiming that white men in America are oppressed is crap for a start, and it is most definitely expressing sympathy for the killer and claiming justification for his acts by associating him with genuinely oppressed people. The MRM is constantly proclaiming that male violence is justified, that women deserve to be beaten, raped and killed for simply existing, and saying that women are responsible for male actions. Please don’t come here and pretend these commenters meant anything else.
I just added a truly repulsive comment from The Spearhead to the OP; it’s at the end.
‘takes a stand’
Fuck.
I just… fucking hell.
It’d be nice if “Truth Teller” would stop projecting long enough to get some basic fucking facts right.
Unfuckingbelievable.
No, sadly, all too believable. Not only that this moron got the facts wrong (the murderer started with his own parents) but that some MRA scum would see shooting little kids as ‘taking a stand’.
Motty, congrats are being insensitive.
Otherwise, what Cassandra said:
“No, wait, I see where they’re going. Since they assume that anything bad that a woman does anywhere is the fault of feminism, of course they assume that everyone else will blame anything bad done by a man anywhere on the MRM.”
So, I’m confused. The news stories about this all mention the killer’s age, and none of them even hint that he had kids. Why would anyone assume that he was expressing rage over a custody battle in which he’d been denied access to his (non-existent) son? Is it that MRAs don’t bother to read the stuff they link to, or do they think that the feminazi media is suppressing the story of this 20 year old’s secret long drawn out battle for custody of a child who he fathered when he was, like, 12?
I have this horrible feeling that they’re assuming it was that because that’s why men get angry and break things.
And even if he’d got all his facts right ithat comment would still be an utterly vile and self-centered piece of shit.
Also, if it’s a deliberate attempt to misrepresent the situation to drum up support for the cause, do they not realize that people who follow the link might actually read the contents and notice that this kid doesn’t fit the profile?
@Cassandra and Morkais – pillowinhell mentioned on the other thread having seen an early report suggesting it was a parent who did the shooting, so it sounds like the MRscuM is leaping onto that and not bothering to read anything else.
I sure as hell hope that “Truth Teller” creature doesn’t have children.
At first the news (getting the info from police) was reporting that the killer’s older brother was the killer — he’s 24, don’t know if he has a kid. The killer apparently had his brother’s ID on him, for some reason.
But when I first started watching the news, even though they were reporting incorrectly on who was the killer, no one was saying anything about children or custody.
Fuck this, I should go and find something to make me feel like the world’s actually worth the effort.
MRA response to a tragedy is not that thing.
*ollies outie*
These comments are worth repeating. They’re reported in The Age’s updates.
(emphasis mine)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO-phqmyqdY some brain bleach.
http://youtu.be/aO-phqmyqdY
Antenna dog! 😀 And did you see the cat sitting on the stairpost at the start?
Brain bleach is good.
Update on what happened – Peter Lanza, the murderer’s father, is still alive. The earlier report I read said it was his body found at the home, but it was actually Nancy Lanza, the murderer’s mother, who was killed there, not at the school as was first reported.
More brain bleach: Gandalf playing bagpipes on a unicycle.
That must surely be the same guy who dresses as Darth Vader in a kilt and plays the pipes while on his unicycle! There can’t be two of ’em …
… um
Yep, Portland. So either it’s the same guy or there’s a mysterious group of unicycle-riding, bagpipe-playing geeks there. Which I must say is a pretty appealing idea.
http://youtu.be/4yTgMf1cOcQ