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Newtown shooting discussion thread: No flames, no trolls, no MRAs

Because the post I just put up on the Newtown shooting is so troubling and disturbing, I am setting up this separate thread so people can discuss the shooting without having to deal with or think about MRAs.

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thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

Alex, wrong place, wrong everything.

Sporklift
7 years ago

Honestly, I think it’s the lack of respect for people that leads to things like this rather than any kind of gun control. The US culture has gotten so invasive and toxic I have no idea how we’ll get through it. If you inherently believe that people deserve basic respect, you don’t end up shooting them/stabbing them/beating the shit out of them. Instead of respect for your fellow beings, we get “us vs them” and tribal identities and all sorts of other divisive crap that divides everyone into their little boxes and groups and whatnot. Everyone other than (general) you is a nonhuman “other” to be despised unless they give you the secret handshake or code word or whatever. Non-white people/Non-heteronormative people and any other “groupings” of people are just that – people. They’re not “the enemy” or anything else. There is a basic lack of respect for people in this country, and that, I think, has more of an impact than the fact that we have a lot of guns.

We could have twice as many guns in this country, but if everyone wasn’t bombarded by messages that people who are different than you were subhuman creatures, there’d be less of this. If we had a little more empathy or even sympathy, if we weren’t so scared of being “conned”, if we didn’t care so much about the supposed scammers out there, if we had more human decency, then angry people shooting up places would happen far less. It’s okay to be angry; it’s not okay to shoot people because of it. Go see a therapist if you feel the anger being too much.

And that’s other thing about this country – you don’t have to be mentally ill to go see a therapist to help you deal with your problems. Sometimes a person needs a little bit of help to get through problems and it’s not a sign of an organic disease nor a sign that someone has failed. But because we don’t respect that people sometimes need help – hello “rugged individualism” – we end up with angry people who don’t care enough about people in general and they go shoot whoever.

Sorry for this being so long; I just get mad when people want to blame everything under the sun rather than the fact our culture fosters this. Video games! Misandry! Satan! No, fools, you’re just proving the point of why some people are mass shooters – because you lack the common decency to keep your fool mouths shut and let people grieve. Just because people are tearfully asking “why?” doesn’t mean you have to answer with shit you’re pulling out of your ass.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
7 years ago

I agree, generally.

I also think that if people didn’t have access to assault rifles they wouldn’t be able to kill as many people. Gun control isn’t a solution, but it’d make things better.

MKlein
MKlein
7 years ago

Gun control, yes. I’m not saying “ban all the guns” necessarily, but certainly I’m not sure why anyone outside a war zone needs assault rifles or automatic weapons.

I was originally going to come on here and add my two cents about the ableism that’s been infesting all the coverage I’ve seen of the shooting and the shooter, because I’ve been finding that very triggering. But the conversation doesn’t seem to be going that way, and I’m not sure if this thread is officially devoted to the gun issue, so I’ll hold off if it’s not appropriate.

Alex
Alex
7 years ago

@thenatfantastic. I was unsure at first but now that I read the FAQ I have to disagee with you. It has everything to do with this place. He killed his mother and then a female principal, it screams about the man-woman relationship. I just found out that ALL school shootings are done by boys. It’s gender specific!

Alex
Alex
7 years ago

And finally, it’s not about gun control. Yes, gun availability amplifies the problem. But that’s looking at the issue very superficially. The real problem is why teenage/young men can’t deal with their frustrations and seek help.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

Look at the title of this post, duder. No one wants to hear either a) your little theories on how women are to blame for this or b) your transparant attempts to ‘trick’ us into saying something you can interpret as man-hating.

Go play somewhere else, Captain Obvious of the Obvious Brigade, you sitting around playing armchair psychologist really isn’t going to help anything, is it?

timetravellingfool
7 years ago

Alex, if you refer to the murder of children as ‘maximizing kill hits’, then you are not viewing this situation with the compassion appropriate to post here. Young men are frustrated? Well welcome to the bloody club. There are tons of discontent, frustrated people in this world, and all but thirty-one of them chose not to respond to that frustration by shooting children. At that point, it isn’t the frustration of young men that is the problem, their tendency to respond to frustration with mass murder that is the problem. You want to talk more about this, meet me in another thread. Babies died yesterday and I am in no mood to hear how you think it was all the fault of the evil feminists.

Sgt Grumbles
Sgt Grumbles
7 years ago

Clearly it’s all the fault of vidya games.

katz
7 years ago

Mklein: This is a fine place for that! It’s Jeff who brought up gun control and he shouldn’t have.

And you are right, there seems to be no evidence that the killer was mentally ill, and even if he was, that’s really neither here nor there. I’m really, really sorry if you (or anyone else with mental health issues) feel like you’re being lumped together with him.

Alex
Alex
7 years ago

If you don’t want to help, ignore me. As a father of a 4-yr boy I find it challenging to bring him up in this complex society. I have to disagree with you again, it most definitely is going to help if I can raise him as a man fitting this society.

timetravellingfool
7 years ago

Yes, we don’t want to talk about this here because we hate children. Dude, you are probably on your way to being put on moderation, so read these words carefully- there are people on this board that would like nothing more than to bat you around like a brand new cat toy- but this is no the thread for it. This is the ‘I want to curl up under a desk and die’ thread. And no one here agrees with you. So if you want to argue, go to another thread on the subject (one down from this). if you want to curl up under a desk and die and not talk about gun control, tell us more.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

Note how he phrases that as a demand that we as members of a (what he presumes to be an all-)female group, spend our time explaining things to him, comforting him and giving him the answers he wants to hear, or we’re big meany-pants feminists who hate children.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

I’m too ill for grammaring, but you get my drift. If you must hang around Alex, please go to the thread where you’re welcome to whine to your heart’s content.

timetravellingfool
7 years ago

And there is nothing more comforting to a sad man and father than to have everyone agree with him. I am waiting for him to come back and express his ever important Opinion despite the title of the thread and long time posters telling him this is not the place.

MordsithJ
7 years ago

I just found out that ALL school shootings are done by boys. It’s gender specific!

Nope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer

Wetherby
Wetherby
7 years ago

I also note how quick he is to accuse others of ignoring things, while blatantly ignoring a heartfelt request by both David and others here to stop posting about these particular topics in this particular thread.

Paige
Paige
7 years ago

When the men sitting around signing the bill of rights, the weapons at that time were single shot and took manual reloading. If they couldn’t conceive that their woman or their slaves would be one day considered actual “people” in “We, the people…”, they couldn’t have possibly assumed that it would one day be possible for a single man to hold what would be considered a whole army at the time against the people of the United States.

katz
7 years ago

As a father of a 4-yr boy I find it challenging to bring him up in this complex society.

Then how about you go raise your kid like a goddamn adult and quit wanking at us?

Paige: Maybe take it to this thread? We’re trying to keep the actual discussion there, I think, because it attracts trolls and we want to keep this thread troll-free (fine job we’re doing, right?). (If other people say I’m wrong about this, then ignore me.)

Nat: Are you sick too? I just caught a cold from my husband. That makes, what, four or five regulars who are all sick right now?

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
7 years ago

That makes, what, four or five regulars who are all sick right now?

Damned computer viruses!

katz
7 years ago

XD

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

@Katz Yeah, I have a sinus cold, at my last rough estimation I have snotted out at least 150% of my body weight. I’ll live though.

@Kittehs I loled XD

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
7 years ago

Glad to bring a smile! πŸ™‚

Nat, ewww, that reminds me of when our Magnus had cat flu, a long time ago. Vet said to try the Vick’s in steaming water trick with him. I did – him in a basket and the bowl in front.

Gross does not begin to describe it.

lowquacks
lowquacks
7 years ago

Vick’s in steaming water trick

Sounds like a rave thing…

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“That makes, what, four or five regulars who are all sick right now?”

*hands out tea* I hope you all feel better soon!

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
7 years ago

LOL lowquacks, have you never had to do that as a kid? Vick’s Vaporub in a bowl, pour boiling water over it, breathe in the steam (preferably with a towel over your head). It’s supposed to help clear a really blocked nose. Can’t say it’s ever helped me that much but boy was it effective on Magnus …

cloudiah
7 years ago

Thanks for the tea. Can someone please go over to the Kate Harding thread and whack that troll? I’m going back to sleep.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Greetings, sisters in snot production. I’m starting to feel guilty about the environmental consequences of all the tissues I’m using.

princessbonbon
7 years ago

One of the things I keep thinking about is the demonetization that teachers have been getting for the past oh forever. And yet, these teachers did everything they could to protect the innocents in their care to the point of even shielding them with their bodies.

And I know that most of the teachers I had when I was a kid would have done the same without even thinking of the possible consequences to themselves.

How can we demand everything from someone willing to do that and not respect it by making sure they can feed their own families?

katz
7 years ago

You know that urine-powered generator those girls in Afghanistan (IIRC) created? I wonder if you can power it with snot.

Nada
Nada
7 years ago

Princess bonbon, I couldn’t agree more. I know there are probably a million issues that will come before the one you raised, but I hope people remember those brave adults next time they call them selfish for wanting a raise for their largely-unpaid after school labor. (I am not a teacher nor do I have any in my family– but I had teachers who bought all their students’ books and play costumes with their own money).

And I won’t even pretend this can be used as an example to counteract MRAs’ stereotypes about male bravery.

Yoyo
Yoyo
7 years ago

These hero teachers are the same people demonized for joining unions and wanting rights. I am so proud of the bravery shown by the (female, gasp!) principal of that school. It helps a little to know that people can and are often very very good. Hugs to all boobians.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“Can someone please go over to the Kate Harding thread and whack that troll?”

I’m (obviously) multi tasking, but I’ll go play a round of whack-a-troll or two (I still think pecunium’s version is better, but he’s among the ranks of the sick still I think)

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

Can’t sleep. Sinuses may explode. I feel like I’m wearing a lead mask with spikes facing in. I’ve been batting off trolls all day – I was accidentally the start of a tweetstorm which exposed a far-right group being thoroughly disgusting about this shooting, so I’ve had to deal with asshole racists from the group attacking me all day. Some of them were funny but not when I’m ill and tired. Having said that I will go look at the Kate Harding troll now and see if I can contribute.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
7 years ago

Unless one had a transporter beam and could send one’s exploding sinuses into the right-wingers’ heads …

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

I contributed mainly in ALL CAPS. I am not at my most patient today. Also I just finished watching the latest series of Futurama through what can only be described as boredom-prompted masochism, and my head is still reeling from watching all the shark jumping.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Lol, that’s right! I finally updated to OSX 10.6, I can use firefox extensions again! Thank you for that reminder, as tangential as it may be.

As for the ads in general, either the targeting is weird, or they’re doing it by general IP, because I’ve gotten a couple for gun stores (before this thread though I think) — those would make sense for the rest of my family though, so I’m guessing it’s by IP.

*hands nat some tea* That’s a nice black tea and orange blend btw, very tasty (and it goes good with Irish whiskey)

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
7 years ago

Hehe, I’m already drinking tea with rum in it.

Purely medicinal, you understand πŸ˜‰ By the way, I meant to sympathise on the shitty families thing with you earlier – some of my family are members of the the far right racists I was being badgered by all day. I’m not close to them by any stretch of the imagination (purely because of this) so I can’t imagine how shit it would be to have to live with them >:(

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“Purely medicinal, you understand πŸ˜‰ ” — Completely understand πŸ™‚

“By the way, I meant to sympathise …” — Thank you, for all the trolls here, part of why I’m back is because y’all remind me that there are good people out there. And I’m sorry you have racist assholes harassing you.

MKlein
MKlein
7 years ago

@Katz, thanks.
I actually have minimal mental health stuff per se (really mild dysthymic depression), but there’s been a lot coming out about how the killer might have been autistic, including allegedly something his own brother said, and I am on the spectrum. So even though MOST PEOPLE know that autism doesn’t make you kill people, there’s still the old “they have no empathy” tropes getting brought out yet again, and that’s hard to take.

The worst thing about talking about this stuff is you feel like you’re taking attention away from the actual victims and just complaining about how this tragedy affects you personally. But then, the people who STARTED the whole discussion of the killer’s ability status are the people who switched the spotlight over from the victims, where it should be, not autistics and people with mental health issues trying to defend themselves.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Better that than racist sinuses and exploding right wingers… Hey I’m awake and the cold meds made me dream I was in a hospital and all the nurses were ring-tailed lemurs. Best hospital ever.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
7 years ago

Way cool hospital, cloudiah!

I saw a kids’ book (I think – coulda been a dvd) today about Ninja Meerkats. Too funny.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Um, the first part of that comment was aimed at David’s response to Nat, in case that wasn’t clear. Did I mention cold meds? OTC, but those plus about 14 hours of sleep make my brain a little funny.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Isn’t it weird how you feel less rather than more coherent when you oversleep?

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
7 years ago

Oversleeping does that to me, too. The worst is waking up during a dream, though. I might be really near waking, but if I’m in that phase when the alarm goes off, I’m groggy for hours.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

When that happens hilarious things follow, like me turning to the person next to me and going “hurry up, we have to rescue the squirrels!”. Or the time that I was having a nightmare about being surrounded by sharks in the open water and when I woke up I wouldn’t let my boyfriend go pee (because the sharks would get him if he stepped out of the bed/boat, you see).

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
7 years ago

LOL if you have too many dreams like that, you might have to get a gazunda for any bed-guests!

(Gazunda = chamber pot. It gazunda the bed.)

katz
7 years ago

In related news, my cat blew a snot bubble. I think she’s sick too πŸ™