You all need to go read Kate Harding’s bracing (and given all the recent doxxing bullshit, spectacularly well-timed) Jezebel piece titled “Fuck You, Men’s Rights Activists.” Here’s a sample:
Fuck you, first of all, for making it nearly impossible for decent men struggling with abusive partners or unfair custody arrangements to get the help they need and deserve. You have forever tainted those issues with your rage-filled, obsessively anti-woman horseshit, to the point where it’s become difficult for any rational, compassionate person to trust a man who claims he’s been screwed over in family court or abused by a female partner, even if he has. …
Fuck you for showing up every time women speak, especially about rape and abuse, and trying to make it all about you. Fuck you for derailing threads about the victims of Marc Lépine, a man who screamed about his hatred for feminists as he murdered fourteen women and injured many others, because you also hate feminists and want a fucking cookie for not killing anyone. Fuck you for making rape and death threats against young women who dared to protest a speaking engagement by a man who thinks little girls would enjoy being raped by their fathers if it weren’t for society telling them it’s dirty. Fuck you for whining about how unfair it is that women might wonder if you’re a rapist when you approach them out of nowhere, while completely ignoring how unfair it is that women feel the need to be on guard all the time in public. Or that if we relax and behave normally—drinking, dancing, dressing however we want—you will be the first motherfuckers in line to blame us for getting ourselves raped.
And it keeps going from there.
Thank you Kate, for putting it so well.
Let me guess at the number of citations you or TS have to support this…
…
…waaaiiittt…
…it’s coming…
It’s none, isn’t it?
Female-only rape centres redirect men to more appropriate lines. Feminists advocate for changes in rape law which make them more gender-neutral. In fact, one of the regulars for this blog used to do that as a job, IIRC.
And the last one, just what?
So no, not a terrific response, just another truckload of woman-blaming argle fucking bargle which essentially boils down to the fact that the MRM can’t be bothered to do fuck all to actually help themselves and would rather just scream at women to do hard things for them. Where the fuck do you think rape crisis centres come from? Do you think they grow on trees planted by vagina-worshipping nymphettes at full moon?
NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU DOING THESE THINGS APART FROM YOU, YOU LAZY, LAZY, FUCKER. PUT DOWN THE KEYBOARD. STOP RAGING AT WOMEN FOR YOUR OWN FAILINGS FOR JUST A SHORT TIME AND GO START ORGANISING. FUNDRAISE. CAMPAIGN. HELL, JUST DONATE SOME OF YOUR MONEY TO JUST DETENTION OR RAINN*. SHOUTING AT WOMEN ON THE INTERNET IS NOT THE WAY TO ACHIEVE THESE GOALS OR MAKE ANYONE SYMPATHETIC TO THEM. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ARTICLE WHICH APPARENTLY WENT WOOSHING OVER YOUR HEAD AT THE SPEED OF SOUND.
(*US-ians, those are the right ones, yeah?)
“*US-ians, those are the right ones, yeah?” — Yeah, but RAINN is one of those ones that the MRM seems to think is EBIL FEMINISM.
Also, I’m dying over here thanks to this — “Where the fuck do you think rape crisis centres come from? Do you think they grow on trees planted by vagina-worshipping nymphettes at full moon?”
Here, have an internet — +1 internet to nat.
RE: Egalitarian
I remember Toysoldier. He’s that guy I didn’t know who took MY experience as a male survivor of rape and used it for lolz because he doesn’t like David.
I definitely take seriously everything HE says on male survivors of rape, mm-hmm.
PS: Hi Argenti!
LBT – geez, not another one. Sounds like that Unamazing
ArseholeAtheist douchebrain.Toysoldier is an asshat.
@Egalitarian
The guy must’ve missed the: “Women raping boys? Best shit ever!” comments from MRAs. Those aren’t exactly uncommon. And of course very helpful to rape survivors like him. I mean, they’re an attempt at reframing their experience into something positive rather than making them eternal victims as feminists are wont to do. You gotta give them dibs for that.
“when the MRM makes it sound like male rape is only because of feminism, they make it harder for male survivors to seek help.”
I haven’t heard MRAs say male rape is because of feminism, but they have said many feminists perpetuate the idea that only men are rapists by saying stuff like “only men can stop rape”. In fact, David Futrelle claimed 98% of rapists are men, an incorrect stat that certainly doesn’t help male victims of female perpetrators. When David was challenged on this, he said if future research proved him wrong, he would change his tune. Well, the CDC study proves him wrong, if you include being “made to penetrate” in the definition of rape. Has he changed his tune?
“Female-only rape centres redirect men to more appropriate lines.”
According to the following survey, battered women’s shelters often accuse male callers of being abusers, and refer them to batterers’ programs: http://www.clarku.edu/faculty/dhines/Douglas%20%20Hines%202011%20helpseeking%20experiences%20of%20male%20victims.pdf (see Table 3 on the top of page 9 for a summary. Look at “Referred to batterer’s program/Suggested helpseeker was batterer” and “Given number which turned out to be for a batterer’s program”).
I’m sure they think they are redirecting these men to “appropriate” services. Are you saying rape crisis centers do the same thing? Now, I have heard several male victims mention they contacted a rape crisis center and were yelled at or ignored, but I haven’t heard of a case where a crisis center helped a man who was raped by a woman. I’m sure it happens, but that is not enough; all rape crisis centers should be sympathetic to male victims who call them.
“Feminists advocate for changes in rape law which make them more gender-neutral.”
It seems that feminists in Israel and India have opposed making rape laws gender neutral: see http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=169522 and http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-07-20/india/32763268_1_gender-sexual-violence-crpc
Are you referring to the feminists who pushed for the FBI to change its definition of rape? That’s interesting because the new definition only includes men who are penetrated and not men who are “made to penetrate”, even though the majority of male victims are in fact “made to penetrate”. Conveniently, that allows people to understate the number of male victims and falsely claim that men are almost never raped by women.
@”Egalitarian”:
Clearly, the idea about men stopping rape is a response to MRA’s reflexive blaming of female victims of rape for their own rapes, and the constant admonishment to women in public and in the media that women “have the power to stop rape”, if we limit our lives is significant ways, never do or say anything that may off piss a man, some man somewhere, and spent every minute of our existence mindful that we may be about to be raped. Which, of course, would make us histrionic bitches who are obsessed with rape — but that’s what being responsible for preventing our own rape requires.
Anytime there is a report of a woman or a little girl having been raped, the MRA response is to claim that the woman is the one responsible because she at the very least should have known the guy would rape her (“should have exercised better judgment”), or alternatively, because men can’t help raping, given that they are incapable of understanding non-verbal clues, or verbal clues, or anything, or because a man can’t stop once his fingertip touches a woman. So, according to MRAs themselves. we must assume that every man is a rapist. That is the only way we can prevent our own rape. Isn’t that so?
@”Egalitarian”
Oh? Did the old definition include being “made to penetrate”? Did the MRA’s do anything about it? Or were you too busy pontificating how the secretion of lubrication by a woman during rape proves she “likes it”? Hey, be a goddamned egalitarian. If female arousal while being raped means it’s not really rape, apply the same rule to male arousal.
@Egalitarian
And what better movement to address toxic gender roles than the MRM, a hate movement focused exclusively on the “rights” of rapists and child abusers?
Sorry Egalitarian, did you miss the part of my post where I told you that if you genuinely, really, truly cared about male victims and not just screaming at women on the internet, you set up your own groups or donated to already existing ones?
@nat, it’s like how they’d rather kill VAWA than improve it. It’s all about hating feminists and hurting women for these guys.
Thus proving the entire point of the article. ‘Brilliant takedown’ my arse.
RE: Egalitarian
Dude, we had this whole argument about the FBI definition when it first came out. And if I recall correctly, that was with NWO, who had a lot more staying power than you.
But you keep on keeping on.
Also, what is your opinion of transphobia in rape centers? That effects men too.
It saddens me that this guy is called “egalitarian.”
Yes, he has a pretty warped idea of it.
“I haven’t heard MRAs say male rape is because of feminism…” — but I’m quoting TS who says his rapist acted because of feminism…
Your hypocrisy is showing, and it doesn’t look good on you.
“In fact, David Futrelle claimed 98% of rapists are men, an incorrect stat that certainly doesn’t help male victims of female perpetrators. When David was challenged on this, he said if future research proved him wrong, he would change his tune. Well, the CDC study proves him wrong, if you include being “made to penetrate” in the definition of rape. Has he changed his tune?”
Hey guess what? That was one of my statistical smack-downs, and I think I saved the link. Oh look, I did save it. So yeah, it’s closer to 70% of rapists are men, at least in the very narrow time frame that Arks was willing to use (which, btw, included 0 male rape victims who were *not* made to penetrate, the number was too small for the source to perform statistics)
“It seems that feminists in Israel and India have opposed making rape laws gender neutral…”
So that’s 2 countries out of what? 30+ if we include the EU?
“Are you referring to the feminists who pushed for the FBI to change its definition of rape? That’s interesting because the new definition only includes men who are penetrated and not men who are “made to penetrate”, even though the majority of male victims are in fact “made to penetrate”. Conveniently, that allows people to understate the number of male victims and falsely claim that men are almost never raped by women.”
The FBI definition used to be “carnal knowledge of a woman” — as in, male rape did not occur, period, by that definition. People, mostly feminists, did petition for the new definition to include “or made to penetrate”. Also, the CDC definition (see link above) does include made to penetrate.
Hi LBT!! (Please pass that around for me)
This isn’t actually true, though — and the courts (as far as I know) haven’t interpreted the FBI definition yet. Again, the definition is “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” The definition does not say whether the penetration must be by the victim or by the perpetrator — it only says that there must be penetration and that the victim did not consent. This arguably includes forced penetration.
So, I, a woman, called a rape crisis center when I was very young, after I had been held down by two male friends and sexually assaulted, and the woman who answered my call said that what happened to me didn’t sound like rape to her. She refused to help me.
Now, I’m a rape victim advocate, and I’ve helped every male survivor I’ve had the opportunity to help. In fact, I’m likely to go even more out of my way to help them, because I recognize how fucking difficult it must be for them to come forward.
Anecdata, I know, but I want to make it clear that the line you’re imagining, where women are always treated with compassion and men aren’t, isn’t always there.
@Katz – they got the idea from feminists. They’ve watched your movement and have seen what works. Namely “be a huge pain in the arse until the boss-class gives you whatever you wanted – in the (vain) hope of shutting you up and getting you to go away”.
Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, etc.
@Howardbannister – nice one, mock some dude posting in his second (or third or fourth) language. He’s obviously not a native english speaker and has a ?Scandinavian? or ?Eastern European? handle. How’s your Norwegian or Finnish or Russian grammar, eh?
@Everyone, Kate Harding included- f’sure, it’s the ever-present MRM who occupy positions of power throughout the secret family court system, not feminists. No, no, not at all.
/ sarcasm
Pfffft. A desperately transparent effort to deflect blame on the part of Harding.
Didn’t you all agree with Futrelle about the MRM’s insignificance the other day?
You can’t have it both ways, the MRM can’t be simultaneously everywhere and nowhere.
The MRM – It is not the Scarlet Pimpernel. Nor is it Zen nature.
You have to pick a caricature and stick to it: Either the MRM is all-powerful-boogeyman, or it is an insignificant-internet-collection-of-isolated-basement-neckbeards. Pick ONE and stick to it.
Because all this chopping and changing, well it just makes you look silly, really.
Not to mention, all this “but-but-but feminists have been helping men!!”. Really? Really? You protest too much.
Judging by the suicide stats for men in the West as feminism took power over the last 40 years: Either this claim is a lie, or “feminist-help” is harming men – so, if it’s the latter, please stop whatever this “feminist-helping” is you claim. Thanks so much.
Bo-ring. Try harder or GTFO.
The MRM is a small movement.
The cultural gender norms that inform a lot of people’s behaviour – gender-policing bullshit that starts in primary school and lasts right up into adult life – is everywhere.
These are related and not contradictory facts.
Except:
@Bee – I’m just going to take you at your word, because your story rings true to me. And I’d like to thank you for helping rape vics. Men and women both, without bias.
@Morkawhatever – so if the MRM is a small movement, it can’t have the all pervasive effect Harding claims, can it now. And I take it that instead you blame Teh Patriarchy.
(To be slightly more clear. The size of the MRM is not a result of the other thing, but its *existence* is.)
I am in fact blaming the pervasive cultural norms generally described as The Patriarchy, which it sounds like you may be interpreting as a conspiracy. It isn’t. It’s not that organised. It’s really just a bunch of shitty divisive harmful ideas.