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Kate Harding Tells Men’s Rights Activists to Go Eff Themselves

middlefingercandles

You all need to go read Kate Harding’s bracing (and given all the recent doxxing bullshit, spectacularly well-timed) Jezebel piece titled “Fuck You, Men’s Rights Activists.” Here’s a sample:

Fuck you, first of all, for making it nearly impossible for decent men struggling with abusive partners or unfair custody arrangements to get the help they need and deserve. You have forever tainted those issues with your rage-filled, obsessively anti-woman horseshit, to the point where it’s become difficult for any rational, compassionate person to trust a man who claims he’s been screwed over in family court or abused by a female partner, even if he has. …

Fuck you for showing up every time women speak, especially about rape and abuse, and trying to make it all about you. Fuck you for derailing threads about the victims of Marc Lépine, a man who screamed about his hatred for feminists as he murdered fourteen women and injured many others, because you also hate feminists and want a fucking cookie for not killing anyone. Fuck you for making rape and death threats against young women who dared to protest a speaking engagement by a man who thinks little girls would enjoy being raped by their fathers if it weren’t for society telling them it’s dirty. Fuck you for whining about how unfair it is that women might wonder if you’re a rapist when you approach them out of nowhere, while completely ignoring how unfair it is that women feel the need to be on guard all the time in public. Or that if we relax and behave normally—drinking, dancing, dressing however we want—you will be the first motherfuckers in line to blame us for getting ourselves raped.

And it keeps going from there.

Thank you Kate, for putting it so well.

 

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Some Gal Not Bored At All
Some Gal Not Bored At All
8 years ago

@cloudiah

She was just negging them.

This is so awesome it has made me laugh every time I’ve scrolled down the thread. Well done!

I actually wouldn’t be surprised if it did explain what they were thinking. Their logic is so pretzelly that they might see “fuck you” as an insulting prelude to intercourse.

Falconer
8 years ago

It’s tattooed on the back of their necks.

It’s the Ideology Police!

CatBeast
CatBeast
8 years ago

I love it how one or two comments where all like “But gueiz, gueiz, srsly they’re not bad people, I’ve read their comments n stuff and they’re leik not that baaad.”

Yet nobody considers nearly *all* MRA hubs are ran by crazy-ass rape apologists or have them prominently featured on their webpage; whereas all the feminist websites I visit and the majority of tumblr aren’t horribly scary “RadFem” types who for all intents and purposes *are* straw feminists.

Seriously, one “Go mow my fucking lawn.” joke aimed at an MRA who wishes to derail a thread is not the equivalent to a rape threat.

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

@kittehhelp

That would explain why leftist dudes are so disproportionately beardy…

timetravellingfool
8 years ago

@kittenhelp- My guffaw scared my cat. You see, this is what misandry does.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Careful there, TTF. You go scaring our feline overlords* and you could be in real trouble.

*we ‘fessed up yesterday that feminism is really just a cover for the great feline takeover. As Argenti said, we have thumbs and cans don’t open by themselves.

scarlettpipistrelle
8 years ago

Ok I have to ask, why are so many of the leading MRAs so pig-ignorant while claiming to be brainiacs on the topic of human history and its meaning for our modern times? I mean, it’s one thing to skip college, lots of fine people don’t go there, but to be as staggeringly ignorant as so many of them prove to be, all the while bragging about their self-styled insights into reality, is amazing considering that we have teh Internets and libraries, and Amazon.com, and all that.

You may recall the astounding statements over on the Shithead.com about Tibetan Buddhism, where they contradicted both recorded history and the current Dalai Lama. Here’s another gem from the comments on Kate’s speech: “I didn’t read that article, but women like her I believe have a deep-seated inferiority complex about being a woman. It could begin to develop, for example, when they’re sitting in elementary school studying history and they notice how all the significant events involved men, or almost all the inventions were by men. They being to feel a gnawing discomfort and question their self-worth as a woman.”

These dumbasses apparently don’t know any history farther back then their own butts. They have no clue about the education, culture, and (yes) LAWS that constrained men, women, and social classes back in the day. They have no idea that it was not only legal, but expected, to refuse women admission to colleges and apprenticeships, and the exceptions were rare (and often involved connections). They have never heard about laws regulating the ownership and control of assets by women. They really do think that a woman had the same opportunities gain education, invent things, and make their mark on the world as men over the course of human history. Meanwhile, we have another man in authority, a US judge this time, who apparently flunked Biology 101 (http://www.9news.com/news/article/304886/188/US-judge-says-victims-bodies-can-prevent-rape).

They don’t even know much about the societies where there were exceptions. They probably never heard about women in Sparta, or the matrilineal groups of India, America and elsewhere. When they hear about an achieving woman, they are dismissive because she could not possibly have been smart, strong, or brave, or whatever, because their minds have become too calcinated to perceive these qualities in a woman.

Combine their pathetic ignorance with the toxic emotions they cultivate in themselves and their smelly online confraternities, and what results is someone I not only never want as a doctor or a clergyman, I don’t even want to find myself in an elevator or a workplace with one. My sons are not like this and my daughter didn’t marry one, thank God.

Think of it, willfully dumb + angry = a walking sack of radioactive dogshit. Thank you David, for helping to expose a real danger to civil society. For as another fuckwad bragged over there, they are not remaining contained, they are branching out and commenting on respectable sites. I’ve seen Uncle Elmer on Forbes, and others elsewhere including our local news. Apostles of a nastier world to come if their fantasies are ever realized.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Not only that, but they are utterly oblivious to the fact that history was written by men, for men, and that women were excluded from the written record. All their contributions were downplayed, or overlooked entirely, or simply not seen as being of any significance, or when a woman actually made it into the historical record, she was treated as an exception (be that good or bad).

This gets covered in an excellent post here. The discussion is specifically about why fantasy fiction shouldn’t be reproducing the sexism of history. That isn’t saying fantasy worlds can’t be sexist, but that there’s no excuse for the writers now to reproduce the sexism of the men who wrote women out of history.

Good quotation from it:

“History is not a long series of centuries in which men did all the interesting/important things and women stayed home and twiddled their thumbs in between pushing out babies, making soup and dying in childbirth.

“History is actually a long series of centuries of men writing down what they thought was important and interesting, and FORGETTING TO WRITE ABOUT WOMEN. It’s also a long series of centuries of women’s work and women’s writing being actively denigrated by men. Writings were destroyed, contributions were downplayed, and women were actively oppressed against, absolutely.”

These MRM morons’ heads would explode if they had to grasp that fact.

scarlettpipistrelle
8 years ago

Yeah, so much they don’t know. Nikola Tesla’s mother invented and built household tools, and in spite of being illiterate, memorized many Serbian epic poems. She was otherwise a traditional housewife, and had to be with 5 children at that time and place. Tesla thought very highly of her intellect and skills – MRAs would probably shout him down as a mangina for that.

CatBeast
CatBeast
8 years ago

@ Kitteh: Have you heard of “Requires Only That You Hate”? and Limyaael of “Limyaael’s Rants” fame? Both are fantasy writing/reading resources with a distinct social justice twist, and have made note of this rather silly trope. Thought that might be useful for brain bleach.

Xanthë
8 years ago

Adding this followup to that awesome blog post on Historically Authentic Sexism by Tansy Rayner Roberts; PSA: Your Default Narrative Settings Are Not Apolitical by Foz Meadows. Talk about knowing your stuff.

howardbann1ster
8 years ago

because I am an MRM and MGTOW.

“I am an Mens Right’s Movement…”

You should go to your basement and self-flagellate for your crimes against the English language. (not to mention ‘an MRM’) I mean, being an MRA is terrible and you should feel bad for it, but what you’ve done to the language… *shudder*

howardbann1ster
8 years ago

PS: Xanthë is totally right, that PSA is gold, and I’m linking it far and wide. (well, one place, so far…)

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

The ignorance of women in history certainly doesn’t explain the women who managed to simultaneously get over the barriers put in front of them (like people assuming they’re stupid) *and* do amazing things, enough to get noticed despite that – the mathematician Sophie Germain springs to mind. She’d be one of the notable mathematicians of the 18th/19th Century even if she hadn’t had to correspond under a false identity.

Makes you wonder what all the women who had it in them to do great things but couldn’t get over the hurdles might have achieved.

Kim
Kim
8 years ago

(not to mention ‘an MRM’)

While calling himself a movement is strange, using ‘an’ is correct. an is used in front of vowel sounds. so “an em ah em” is correct. I mean, maybe that’s not how it’s done everywhere, but that’s how it’s done here.

timetravellingfool
8 years ago

Oh wow, Kitteh’shelp, I loved that article!! Thanks!!

cloudiah
8 years ago

Oh, and MRAs? Fuck you for this too. TW for judicial dismissal of rape. Because if a judge thinks a rape victim wasn’t injured enough and so reduces the rapists sentence from 16 years to 6 years in prison, MRAs think:

I think that’s a valid issue to discuss. It’s almost impossible to have a serious conversation about such things though, the minute you do you’re a ‘rape apologist’.

and

I’m stunned by how many people are calling for disbarment. He should face heavy consequences, but to be legally prohibited from continuing to do the job you’ve trained for your whole life over something said in an argument is absolutely out of line.

There should be consequences, essentially robing him of every cent he spent on law school should not be one of them.

and

Under at least some circumstances, there should be some amount of resistance exerted. It’s a case-by-case thing, sure, but these are part of what can be used as evidence to support a claim which, without it, may be far too suspicious.

I’m going off to look at kitten videos for a while.

katz
8 years ago

Tesla thought very highly of her intellect and skills – MRAs would probably shout him down as a mangina for that.

I would love to see them yell “mangina” at someone OPERATING A GODDAMN TESLA COIL.

pecunium
8 years ago

I see I was ninjaed on the PSA. As to the judge… Perhaps not disbarrment, but he should lose his robe. That speech from the bench was a complete odds with Calif. law on rape.

There is a reason people refer to living in Orange County as, “being behind the Orange Curtain”.

RubyHypatia
RubyHypatia
8 years ago

Kate said it well, bravo!

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

I am a shame to be a man

Right in one there Sparky.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

Oh the irony.

Ruby commending someone for striking out against people who normalise rape.

Egalitarian
Egalitarian
8 years ago

Toysoldiers wrote an excellent response to that article here: http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/youre-not-helping-v10/

He just destroys her argument. I particularly like the second half, starting with,

‘While I am not a men’s rights activist, I will accept the “fuck yous”, Harding. Indeed, as a male survivor of sexual violence at the hands of a feminist I thank you for telling me that every time I speak publicly about my abuse or advocate for other male survivors it makes me an “unapologetically misogynistic bag of rot.” I thank you because that is exactly the kind of thing my abuser would say, and it is the same thing I hear from most feminist I encounter.’

He brilliantly turns her rhetorical tactic around on feminists by pointing out the way many of them marginalize male victims:

“Fuck you for every time a man or boy gets hung up on by a feminist-run rape center.

Fuck you for every cop, medical care provider, and victim’s advocate who believes the feminist myth that rape is something only men do to only women.

Fuck you for every feminist who calls male survivors potential rapists and pedophiles.”

etc. Just an absolutely terrific response.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

First, it isn’t really fair to go talking about toysoldier where he isn’t allowed to comment, pretty sure he’s still banned (it isn’t called a perma-ban for no reason).

Second, did you read Harding’s article?! It starts with —

Fuck you, first of all, for making it nearly impossible for decent men struggling with abusive partners or unfair custody arrangements to get the help they need and deserve. You have forever tainted those issues with your rage-filled, obsessively anti-woman horseshit, to the point where it’s become difficult for any rational, compassionate person to trust a man who claims he’s been screwed over in family court or abused by a female partner, even if he has. …

As in — when the MRM makes it sound like male rape is only because of feminism, they make it harder for male survivors to seek help. And their attitudes towards psychology in general (female run feminist BS so don’t ever even think of getting psychological help) — those attitudes certainly don’t help survivors.

Meanwhile, in reality land, there are plenty of feminists, on this very board, who do support male rape survivors (hell, you’re distracting me from texting with one right this very second)

Since we were discussing random shit, I’ll get back to texting in a moment…he did tell me to enjoy playing whack-a-troll…

“Fuck you for every cop, medical care provider, and victim’s advocate who believes the feminist myth that rape is something only men do to only women.”

That is just straight up bullshit — it’s feminists who’re trying to change police, medical, and sociological attitudes towards rape. It’s feminists who’ve said that there’s nothing “unmanly” about a man being raped.

I’m not particularly surprised with TS though, he manages to make everything any feminist says into a direct attack on his experiences as a survivor. And since he’s probably reading this, may I say that that’s a good sign that some of that “feminist run bullshit” psychology might help? (Because it really isn’t feminist run, until fairly recently most psychs were men, and most psych profs still are — meaning most psychs are taught by male profs)

Myoo
Myoo
8 years ago

@Egalitarian

He just destroys her argument.

If by “destroys her argument” you mean “blame feminism for everything wrong that ever happens to men, completely disregarding all the work that feminists have put in to fix gender issues, not to mention ignoring all the misogyny that comes from the Men’s Right’s Movement as well as all the ways that they reinforce the very same rigid gender roles that cause a lot of the problems that affect men, and dismissing it all as just being a result of men frustrated with feminism” then sure.

I can see why you went with the first option, it’s much shorter.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

Let me guess at the number of citations you or TS have to support this…

…waaaiiittt…

…it’s coming…

It’s none, isn’t it?

Female-only rape centres redirect men to more appropriate lines. Feminists advocate for changes in rape law which make them more gender-neutral. In fact, one of the regulars for this blog used to do that as a job, IIRC.

And the last one, just what?

So no, not a terrific response, just another truckload of woman-blaming argle fucking bargle which essentially boils down to the fact that the MRM can’t be bothered to do fuck all to actually help themselves and would rather just scream at women to do hard things for them. Where the fuck do you think rape crisis centres come from? Do you think they grow on trees planted by vagina-worshipping nymphettes at full moon?

NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU DOING THESE THINGS APART FROM YOU, YOU LAZY, LAZY, FUCKER. PUT DOWN THE KEYBOARD. STOP RAGING AT WOMEN FOR YOUR OWN FAILINGS FOR JUST A SHORT TIME AND GO START ORGANISING. FUNDRAISE. CAMPAIGN. HELL, JUST DONATE SOME OF YOUR MONEY TO JUST DETENTION OR RAINN*. SHOUTING AT WOMEN ON THE INTERNET IS NOT THE WAY TO ACHIEVE THESE GOALS OR MAKE ANYONE SYMPATHETIC TO THEM. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ARTICLE WHICH APPARENTLY WENT WOOSHING OVER YOUR HEAD AT THE SPEED OF SOUND.

(*US-ians, those are the right ones, yeah?)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“*US-ians, those are the right ones, yeah?” — Yeah, but RAINN is one of those ones that the MRM seems to think is EBIL FEMINISM.

Also, I’m dying over here thanks to this — “Where the fuck do you think rape crisis centres come from? Do you think they grow on trees planted by vagina-worshipping nymphettes at full moon?”

Here, have an internet — +1 internet to nat.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: Egalitarian

I remember Toysoldier. He’s that guy I didn’t know who took MY experience as a male survivor of rape and used it for lolz because he doesn’t like David.

I definitely take seriously everything HE says on male survivors of rape, mm-hmm.

PS: Hi Argenti!

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

LBT – geez, not another one. Sounds like that Unamazing Arsehole Atheist douchebrain.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Toysoldier is an asshat.

Kakanian
Kakanian
8 years ago

@Egalitarian

The guy must’ve missed the: “Women raping boys? Best shit ever!” comments from MRAs. Those aren’t exactly uncommon. And of course very helpful to rape survivors like him. I mean, they’re an attempt at reframing their experience into something positive rather than making them eternal victims as feminists are wont to do. You gotta give them dibs for that.

Egalitarian
Egalitarian
8 years ago

“when the MRM makes it sound like male rape is only because of feminism, they make it harder for male survivors to seek help.”

I haven’t heard MRAs say male rape is because of feminism, but they have said many feminists perpetuate the idea that only men are rapists by saying stuff like “only men can stop rape”. In fact, David Futrelle claimed 98% of rapists are men, an incorrect stat that certainly doesn’t help male victims of female perpetrators. When David was challenged on this, he said if future research proved him wrong, he would change his tune. Well, the CDC study proves him wrong, if you include being “made to penetrate” in the definition of rape. Has he changed his tune?

“Female-only rape centres redirect men to more appropriate lines.”

According to the following survey, battered women’s shelters often accuse male callers of being abusers, and refer them to batterers’ programs: http://www.clarku.edu/faculty/dhines/Douglas%20%20Hines%202011%20helpseeking%20experiences%20of%20male%20victims.pdf (see Table 3 on the top of page 9 for a summary. Look at “Referred to batterer’s program/Suggested helpseeker was batterer” and “Given number which turned out to be for a batterer’s program”).
I’m sure they think they are redirecting these men to “appropriate” services. Are you saying rape crisis centers do the same thing? Now, I have heard several male victims mention they contacted a rape crisis center and were yelled at or ignored, but I haven’t heard of a case where a crisis center helped a man who was raped by a woman. I’m sure it happens, but that is not enough; all rape crisis centers should be sympathetic to male victims who call them.

“Feminists advocate for changes in rape law which make them more gender-neutral.”

It seems that feminists in Israel and India have opposed making rape laws gender neutral: see http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=169522 and http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-07-20/india/32763268_1_gender-sexual-violence-crpc

Are you referring to the feminists who pushed for the FBI to change its definition of rape? That’s interesting because the new definition only includes men who are penetrated and not men who are “made to penetrate”, even though the majority of male victims are in fact “made to penetrate”. Conveniently, that allows people to understate the number of male victims and falsely claim that men are almost never raped by women.

Amused
8 years ago

@”Egalitarian”:

I haven’t heard MRAs say male rape is because of feminism, but they have said many feminists perpetuate the idea that only men are rapists by saying stuff like “only men can stop rape”.

Clearly, the idea about men stopping rape is a response to MRA’s reflexive blaming of female victims of rape for their own rapes, and the constant admonishment to women in public and in the media that women “have the power to stop rape”, if we limit our lives is significant ways, never do or say anything that may off piss a man, some man somewhere, and spent every minute of our existence mindful that we may be about to be raped. Which, of course, would make us histrionic bitches who are obsessed with rape — but that’s what being responsible for preventing our own rape requires.

Anytime there is a report of a woman or a little girl having been raped, the MRA response is to claim that the woman is the one responsible because she at the very least should have known the guy would rape her (“should have exercised better judgment”), or alternatively, because men can’t help raping, given that they are incapable of understanding non-verbal clues, or verbal clues, or anything, or because a man can’t stop once his fingertip touches a woman. So, according to MRAs themselves. we must assume that every man is a rapist. That is the only way we can prevent our own rape. Isn’t that so?

Amused
8 years ago

@”Egalitarian”

That’s interesting because the new definition only includes men who are penetrated and not men who are “made to penetrate”, even though the majority of male victims are in fact “made to penetrate”.

Oh? Did the old definition include being “made to penetrate”? Did the MRA’s do anything about it? Or were you too busy pontificating how the secretion of lubrication by a woman during rape proves she “likes it”? Hey, be a goddamned egalitarian. If female arousal while being raped means it’s not really rape, apply the same rule to male arousal.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@Egalitarian

And what better movement to address toxic gender roles than the MRM, a hate movement focused exclusively on the “rights” of rapists and child abusers?

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

Sorry Egalitarian, did you miss the part of my post where I told you that if you genuinely, really, truly cared about male victims and not just screaming at women on the internet, you set up your own groups or donated to already existing ones?

cloudiah
8 years ago

@nat, it’s like how they’d rather kill VAWA than improve it. It’s all about hating feminists and hurting women for these guys.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

Thus proving the entire point of the article. ‘Brilliant takedown’ my arse.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: Egalitarian

Dude, we had this whole argument about the FBI definition when it first came out. And if I recall correctly, that was with NWO, who had a lot more staying power than you.

But you keep on keeping on.

Also, what is your opinion of transphobia in rape centers? That effects men too.

katz
8 years ago

It saddens me that this guy is called “egalitarian.”

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Yes, he has a pretty warped idea of it.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“I haven’t heard MRAs say male rape is because of feminism…” — but I’m quoting TS who says his rapist acted because of feminism…

Your hypocrisy is showing, and it doesn’t look good on you.

“In fact, David Futrelle claimed 98% of rapists are men, an incorrect stat that certainly doesn’t help male victims of female perpetrators. When David was challenged on this, he said if future research proved him wrong, he would change his tune. Well, the CDC study proves him wrong, if you include being “made to penetrate” in the definition of rape. Has he changed his tune?”

Hey guess what? That was one of my statistical smack-downs, and I think I saved the link. Oh look, I did save it. So yeah, it’s closer to 70% of rapists are men, at least in the very narrow time frame that Arks was willing to use (which, btw, included 0 male rape victims who were *not* made to penetrate, the number was too small for the source to perform statistics)

“It seems that feminists in Israel and India have opposed making rape laws gender neutral…”

So that’s 2 countries out of what? 30+ if we include the EU?

“Are you referring to the feminists who pushed for the FBI to change its definition of rape? That’s interesting because the new definition only includes men who are penetrated and not men who are “made to penetrate”, even though the majority of male victims are in fact “made to penetrate”. Conveniently, that allows people to understate the number of male victims and falsely claim that men are almost never raped by women.”

The FBI definition used to be “carnal knowledge of a woman” — as in, male rape did not occur, period, by that definition. People, mostly feminists, did petition for the new definition to include “or made to penetrate”. Also, the CDC definition (see link above) does include made to penetrate.

Hi LBT!! (Please pass that around for me)

Bee
Bee
8 years ago

Are you referring to the feminists who pushed for the FBI to change its definition of rape? That’s interesting because the new definition only includes men who are penetrated and not men who are “made to penetrate”, even though the majority of male victims are in fact “made to penetrate”. Conveniently, that allows people to understate the number of male victims and falsely claim that men are almost never raped by women.

This isn’t actually true, though — and the courts (as far as I know) haven’t interpreted the FBI definition yet. Again, the definition is “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” The definition does not say whether the penetration must be by the victim or by the perpetrator — it only says that there must be penetration and that the victim did not consent. This arguably includes forced penetration.

Now, I have heard several male victims mention they contacted a rape crisis center and were yelled at or ignored, but I haven’t heard of a case where a crisis center helped a man who was raped by a woman. I’m sure it happens, but that is not enough; all rape crisis centers should be sympathetic to male victims who call them.

So, I, a woman, called a rape crisis center when I was very young, after I had been held down by two male friends and sexually assaulted, and the woman who answered my call said that what happened to me didn’t sound like rape to her. She refused to help me.

Now, I’m a rape victim advocate, and I’ve helped every male survivor I’ve had the opportunity to help. In fact, I’m likely to go even more out of my way to help them, because I recognize how fucking difficult it must be for them to come forward.

Anecdata, I know, but I want to make it clear that the line you’re imagining, where women are always treated with compassion and men aren’t, isn’t always there.

The First Joe
The First Joe
8 years ago

@Katz – they got the idea from feminists. They’ve watched your movement and have seen what works. Namely “be a huge pain in the arse until the boss-class gives you whatever you wanted – in the (vain) hope of shutting you up and getting you to go away”.
Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, etc.

@Howardbannister – nice one, mock some dude posting in his second (or third or fourth) language. He’s obviously not a native english speaker and has a ?Scandinavian? or ?Eastern European? handle. How’s your Norwegian or Finnish or Russian grammar, eh?

@Everyone, Kate Harding included- f’sure, it’s the ever-present MRM who occupy positions of power throughout the secret family court system, not feminists. No, no, not at all.
/ sarcasm

Pfffft. A desperately transparent effort to deflect blame on the part of Harding.

Didn’t you all agree with Futrelle about the MRM’s insignificance the other day?
You can’t have it both ways, the MRM can’t be simultaneously everywhere and nowhere.
The MRM – It is not the Scarlet Pimpernel. Nor is it Zen nature.

You have to pick a caricature and stick to it: Either the MRM is all-powerful-boogeyman, or it is an insignificant-internet-collection-of-isolated-basement-neckbeards. Pick ONE and stick to it.

Because all this chopping and changing, well it just makes you look silly, really.

Not to mention, all this “but-but-but feminists have been helping men!!”. Really? Really? You protest too much.
Judging by the suicide stats for men in the West as feminism took power over the last 40 years: Either this claim is a lie, or “feminist-help” is harming men – so, if it’s the latter, please stop whatever this “feminist-helping” is you claim. Thanks so much.

katz
8 years ago

Bo-ring. Try harder or GTFO.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

The MRM is a small movement.

The cultural gender norms that inform a lot of people’s behaviour – gender-policing bullshit that starts in primary school and lasts right up into adult life – is everywhere.

These are related and not contradictory facts.

The First Joe
The First Joe
8 years ago

Except:

@Bee – I’m just going to take you at your word, because your story rings true to me. And I’d like to thank you for helping rape vics. Men and women both, without bias.

The First Joe
The First Joe
8 years ago

@Morkawhatever – so if the MRM is a small movement, it can’t have the all pervasive effect Harding claims, can it now. And I take it that instead you blame Teh Patriarchy.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

(To be slightly more clear. The size of the MRM is not a result of the other thing, but its *existence* is.)

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

I am in fact blaming the pervasive cultural norms generally described as The Patriarchy, which it sounds like you may be interpreting as a conspiracy. It isn’t. It’s not that organised. It’s really just a bunch of shitty divisive harmful ideas.