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JohnTheOther of A Voice for Men Seems to be Completely Losing Touch With Reality

The imaginary feminist conspiracy plots against JohnTheOther
The imaginary feminist conspiracy plots against JohnTheOther

I am beginning to wonder – seriously wonder — if JohnTheOther of A Voice for Men has completely lost touch with reality.

Take a look at this angry, delusional tirade he posted on Reddit yesterday after a couple of his AVFM comrades were banned from Reddit, possibly for their promotion of “doxxing” – that is, their attempts to find and reveal the personal information of a Toronto feminist activist. In this embarrassing public meltdown, JtO turned on the regulars in the Men’s Rights subreddit for criticizing AVFM’s doxxing campaigns – and accused them, astonishingly, of being a gang of closet feminists.

Here are some excerpts; the whole thing is nearly 700 words long.

Dear feminists, and by feminists, I mean most of you sorry cretins who inhabit r/mensrights. …

Why do any of you dolts imagine Paul, Dean, myself and other actual MRAs advocate public exposure of the evangelists of hatred and the initiators of proxy violence? Do you think, in your pea brains we intend harm to come to the cretins we document? A summary pass through any of our collected writing will quickly disabuse you of that stupid assumption.

Really? You may recall that when once upon a time I suggested to John that harm might come to some of those AVFM targeted in a previous doxxing campaign, he responded with a dismissive “[a]nd what if they get killed David?”

His recent tirade continues:

In fact the concern over the practice of outing the agents of hatred and the initiators of proxy violence is not a moral concern at all. It’s fear of offending the powerful. On Reddit, that would be the feminist hegemony who seem able to indulge in any cruelty and hate with impunity – on the misguided notion that if only we in the r/mr reddit were a bit nicer, they’d come right around and embrace the undeniable reality of our concerns.

Stupid and cowardly. Thats what this concern is.

And just in case any of you slow-witted dolts haven’t got it yet, while I wont do it on reddit – respecting the rules of the house here, outside of this forum, I will publish the name of anyone – male or female, MRA or Feminist who advocates violence or initiates violence, including by proxy, and I’ll do it with satisfied smile on my face, and not even a slight twinge of guilt.

Ironically, AVFM seems to have had no problem with the “proxy violence” of the police in Toronto against the feminist protesters at the Warren Farrell talk that has inspired all this drama. (See here for footage of the police removing protesters by force.)

Or do you snivelers think accountability is only for men, and that women, or feminists (including feminist men) have a free licence to commit and cultivate violence and hate?

Do you think women are so fucking helpless and infantile they cannot possibly own any accountability – even in the commission of direct violence? If you /do/ think this, then you are indistinguishable from a gender ideologue, and you will have earned my unlimited contempt. How can you possibly oppose violence without supporting accountability for it’s direct and proxy initiation?

Oh, and if anybody, after reading this cares to claim that publicly identifying the initiators of violence is /actually/ a backhanded technique for putting them in harms way, then you’re too stupid to be allowed to participate in an adult conversation. Yes, you too David.

Thanks for the shoutout. The woman in question “initiated” no violence. You can find my post explaining why I think your doxxing campaign is dangerous here.

I expect I’ll be getting banned on reddit directly after posting this, which will simply be the wider reddit community making itself even less relevant on the topic of the Men’s Rights Movement.

And to the Reddit Admins: Go on, ban me, and tell yourselves the violence cultivated and committed by the feminist community is harmless because it principally targets men.

He has not been banned.

In several followup comments on Reddit, he expanded on his bizarre assertion that the Men’s Rights subreddit is dominated by feminists. At one point he wrote:

there are over 50,000 subscribers to this sub-reddit. Do you think there are 50,000 MRAs here? or about 10,000 MRAs, and about 40,000 feminists.

Meanwhile, he’s continued to rail on about an incident in which he claims to have been threatened by a knife-wielding mob of feminists. In one recent comment on Reddit, he wrote:

I saw box-cutters the last time I dealt with a mob of feminists, and I believe the violence in their movement is dialling rapidly UP. And that’s why attaching identity to behaviour matters. Or we could do nothing substantive, condemn it without any real effect, and wait until we have some serious, and possibly deadly violence from them before we start looking for names.  

Trouble is, this confrontation with a “mob” of violent feminists never happened.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, video put online by John and his supporters shows not a confrontation with a mob but a mildly heated verbal argument between John and a handful of feminist activists who are evidently using a boxcutter not to threaten him but to take down some posters of his. If there really is footage of JtO being threatened by a boxcutter-wielding mob, I would like to see it.

In a posting on AVFM, meanwhile, JtO offers a similarly paranoid fantasy coupled with a threat:

Dear feminists,

I see you, and I hear you, and I notice the knife in your hand, and the machine gun drawn on your placard. I get it, you’re not kidding, and I know you are not speaking metaphorically. You want to kill. We all get that you are entirely serious. But your violence – as you obviously dial it upwards will not be met. It will not be answered and you are uninvited from the rumble.

But where are you going with this brutality? Do you really want this to devolve to a street-fight? Really?

I think at this point JtO’s biggest beef is with reality.

Meanwhile, some of the more sensible voices on the Men’s Rights subreddit – yes, there are a few – continue to try to explain why AVFM’s doxxing campaigns are bad for everyone. In one comment, a Redditor called ibm2431 breaks down the damage he thinks Elam et al are doing to the Men’s Rights cause:

For what purpose will their names be made known?

They’re not prominent members of a movement. They have no real power or influence. They’re just stupid students who love their misandrist circlejerk.

So, again, why the effort?

To harass them. Don’t pretend for a second that (almost obsessively) hunting down their identities to “expose” them will do anything else. …

[Elam] must satisfy his lust for vengeance by hunting down a couple of stupid students. He can try to dress it up as some sort of moral righteousness, but that doesn’t change the fact that his sole motivation is vengeance. He must know that there is no benefit to “exposing” them other than to open them up to harassment.

And if you realize that such actions only benefit those who claim that MRAs are hateful people who will dox those that disagree with them? …

Oh, but don’t worry, you’re not stooping to the protesters’ level by trying to censor their speech. You’re just trying to chill it. You’re just demonstrating that if they disagree with you that you’ll try to hunt them down, “expose” them, and open them up to god only knows what kind of retribution from your posse of internet warriors.

Yes Paul, the protesters made you very angry. They made us all angry. But there’s a line to be drawn between being righteously angry, and using that anger as an excuse to try to harass people. Being able to recognize that line is what helps to see what helps the movement, and what only serves to hurt it.

If the Men’s Rights movement has any hope of becoming anything other than a hate movement, it had better listen to people like this – rather than retreating into hateful delusions, as JohnTheOther and Paul Elam seem intent on doing.

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themisanthropicmuse
8 years ago

twenty bucks says ibm2431 gets denounced as a feminist spy. In their defense though the man is using teh logickz which has been known to befuddle many MRAs.

Yoyo
Yoyo
8 years ago

John can’t seem to decide whether he is a poor poor victim or a fearless brave heart warrior. Fail on both levels, (which I suspect is his main motivating factor).

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Hard to say anything about this without tripping into internet diagnosis territory, except that as a representative of Teh Rational Menz, JtO is a spectacular failure.

tinyorc
8 years ago

Wow. You know you’ve hit MRA batshit crazy bedrock when the dude who used the phrase “misandrist circle” jerk seems like a reasonable and intelligent person.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Wow, those two really don’t take it well when other folks won’t let them be boss, do they?

Any Reddit MRAs reading along – you might want to try to publicly disassociate yourselves from the rape threats mentioned in the other thread too, because from a PR pov that’s not much better than the doxxing threats.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Most people who have a mental illness aren’t assholes, so maybe we could stay away from phrases like “batshit crazy?” We don’t know whether JtO is mentally ill. We DO know he’s an asshole.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

You know you’ve hit MRA batshit crazy bedrock when the dude who used the phrase “misandrist circle” jerk seems like a reasonable and intelligent person.

Spot on, except they’re shitlordy and wrong for any number of reasons that probably have not a single thing to do with mental illness.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Mentally ill or not, he sure is delusional. And an arsehole, though I suspect the former is just a development of the latter.

cloudiah
8 years ago

But I love the username tinyorc. The tiny orcs it conjures up in my head are adorable.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Just for the record, I don’t think either of those two have any mental health issues, I think what this is about is them realizing that some of their power base is slipping away and trying to hold onto it.

cloudiah
8 years ago

He does seem to genuinely believe that he was attacked by a mob with box cutters, but maybe he just figures if he repeats a lie often enough it becomes truthy. Like Fox News.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Obviously I could be wrong, but he reads more as “manipulative liar” than “delusional” to me.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Basically I think they’re both flailing because their attempt to establish Elam as the Pope of the MRM with JtO as his chief cardinal isn’t working, and since Reddit in particular isn’t having it they’re lashing out.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

I’d love to know how he actually survived being attacked by a mob with boxcutters. It’s the sort of thing where I’d kind of expect to be dead or at least badly injured afterward. Though of course, since they were all Powerful Evil but at the same time Weak and Pathetic feminists, I daresay JTO’s manly manliness was enough to let him go into superhero mode and fight his way out without too much trouble.

Wonder if he wears underpants outside coloured tights …

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Now I have an image of JtO wearing a superhero outfit and a mitre …

katz
8 years ago

Yeah, it’s just like when Fox talks about “death panels;” of course they’re not real and they know, at least on one level, that they’re not. But they manage to simultaneously act like they’re real.

Cthulhu's Intern
8 years ago

I’ve been waiting to say this, and now I think it’s an appropriate time: I always read JohnTheOther’s name as “JohnTheOtter” and whenever I read anything by him, I imagine an otter typing angrily on a keyboard, which is hilarious to me. Instant brain bleach for anything he says.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

“But when you pursue your noble goals under the banner of feminism, even when you prefix it, and say liberal feminism, or humanist feminism, or sex positive feminism, you are giving cover to those who openly call for the extermination of men,” said John the Otter.

I like this idea.

Melody
8 years ago

They seem to think that they should have free reign in order to hurt women, but if women speak up against it that it violence against them.

I’m just so tired of it all these day. In person, online whatever.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

You have to deal with people like that in person? I’m so sorry.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Do you think, in your pea brains we intend harm to come to the cretins we document? A summary pass through any of our collected writing will quickly disabuse you of that stupid assumption.

Yes to the first and hell no to the second, JtO. I don’t think he or Elam is crazy, I think they’re abusers who are hopping mad that all men don’t think the way they do.

MKlein
MKlein
8 years ago

I wonder if anyone in the MRM is starting to get suspicious of the “feminist conspiracy” talk, just because someone in the movement has pointed out feminist conspiracies literally EVERYWHERE, including within the MRM itself. Even if you believe this crap, doesn’t this level of paranoia start to strain credulity?

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago

I wonder if he’d actually like it if somebody went after one of those vile feminist protesters in the real world and did her real physical harm. I don’t see him having any regret or sense of responsibility in the least.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

It’s like evil Scooby Doo!

“All men would think like us if it weren’t for those damn feminists!”

(I’m going to have to nominate a feminist who I find particularly annoying to be Scrappy Doo.)

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Cassandra: I nominate Clarisse Thorn as the Scrappy Do in this instance.

Freitag, he’s said that the thought of fucking their shit up gives him an erection, so I
ll say that yes, he would like it if actual harm came to someone.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

MKlein, I wouldn’t be surprised if the MRA redditors Mr. Otter has condemned as feminists start saying that JtO and the AVFM crew are feminist plants. Conspiracy theory is a strong component of their world view: one doesn’t start believing that feminists are oppressing men based on good evidence and critical thinking.

Check out the comments in this video, featured in the previous manboobz post, to see a bunch of MRAs conspiracy theorizing about David’s role in the rape threats against that feminist protestor.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Clarisse is just perfect.

(But see how I’m not claiming she’s not a feminist even though I don’t like her? Learn from this, Steele.)

MKlein
MKlein
8 years ago

@Tulgey Logger – thanks. I actually sort of intellectually know that they’re already too deep into it to be thinking that critically, I just never get used to the level of paranoia/delusion exhibited.
Btw, calling JtO “JohntheOtter” has put me in mind of the sentient otters trying to take over the world in this one older story arc of “South Park,” so thanks for that too 🙂

Drew
Drew
8 years ago

It’s a little distressing to see people’s views on doxxing are so outcome determinative. Presumably JTo was not happy with Violenracrez’s doxxing a few months ago, but that’s gone down the memory hole. Of course, privacy is one of those things that works only if people you don’t like have it, not that JTO seems to realize this. At least the redditors have a consistent belief system.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

John the Otter! Perfect!

http://youtu.be/DXvDLmCfYdU

Cthulhu's Intern
8 years ago

Now I can understand why he keeps talking about the box cutters. Since he’s no more than 2 feet tall, when the women moved their arms around casually, from his perspective, it probably looked like they were swinging them threateningly. It’s a simple mistake.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

ROFL!

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

@sidestinkappleeye – those two are just how I see him. Frowny cross otters.

Hmm, could this be him stomping around being angry?

This could be his default state: http://memecrunch.com/meme/45TU/angry-otter/image.png

Cthulhu's Intern
8 years ago

I looked up the Greek word for otter. It’s “enidrida” (ενυδρίδα). So… does John complain of “misenidry?”

sidestinkappleeye
8 years ago

@ The Kittehs

That is him alright. LULZ

Happy
Happy
8 years ago

Something I’ve been wondering… Bernie Chapin’s bete noir, Dean Emsey is “managing editor” of AVfM.

Wasn’t that JtO’s job?! Has he been demoted? Moved onto greater things?

kysokisaen
8 years ago

Do you think, in your pea brains we intend harm to come to the cretins we document? A summary pass through any of our collected writing will quickly disabuse you of that stupid assumption.

Nah, they’re probably just making a feminist phone book so they can make money off the advertisements. There is absolutely no reason for right-minded people to think that a focused internet campaign hellbent on documenting a woman’s private information could ever possibly be done for nefarious purposes, or that such harmless fun could ever go right off the rails. John the Otter had things completely under control, dude.

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago

My God that was a tedious thread to read.

So, if I understand correctly, calling someone scum is incitment to violence worthy of being doxxed and harrassed online and off…right.

So tomorrow we all wake up and stop seeing women in general or particular being called sluts, whores, cows, parasites etc right? I’ll read the spreadhead and there will be a post explaining that namecalling will no longer be allowed right?

Noadi
8 years ago

Exactly what did otters ever do to be associated with JtO? They are cute, playful, and form strong social bonds, none of those things seem to apply to JtO.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Ah, but given how pissed off MRMs get just from seeing cute animal pics (David even mentions on the other thread that he posts ’em partly to upset these losers), think how aggrieved he’d be at being called JohnTheOtter and having riled-up otter pics posted! 😀

Amnesia
Amnesia
8 years ago

@lowquacks
Is the 1.7m/5’10” his morning height or evening height?

sidestinkappleeye
8 years ago

I would love a Johntheotter poster blitz. Gives me warm fuzzies.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

I think somone’s beaten us to it … 😀

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/takeherthere/Otter-exam.jpg

sidestinkappleeye
8 years ago

Gotta join in then. http://i.imgur.com/mEVwf.jpg

Cthulhu's Intern
8 years ago

Can someone draw a picture of an otter at a computer, angrily banging on the keys shouting something along the lines of “Feminism! Creep shaming! Box cutters!”

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Perfect! 😀

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

It’s at least as good as the “feminism is like a fly” poster:

http://imgur.com/KxG2O