[TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE THREATS]
The Men’s Rights movement has been described by some as “the abusers’ lobby.” I don’t think that’s fair, but there are certainly those within the movement that fit the bill – not necessarily because they themselves are abusers, but because, among other things, they lionize abusers and advocate on their behalf.
In the case of hate site A Voice for Men, there is another way in which the term applies: the “activism” of the site and its followers, insofar as it consists of anything more than self-promotion, often mirrors the actions of abusers – AVFM is known for harassing individuals, usually women, and exposing (or threatening to expose) personal information that could be used to stalk and harm them, in an attempt to intimidate them and other feminists and shut them up. Indeed, the site on several occasions has offered $1000 “bounties” on the personal information of its foes.
Now AVFM has another individual in its sights: a young woman, presumably a student, who participated in a recent demonstration against Men’s Rights author Warren Farrell at the University of Toronto. Men’s Rights activists have been promoting a video depicting the protest, in which a group of feminist activists blockaded the building at which Farrell was speaking, until they were forcibly removed by police. The carefully-edited video pays particular attention to one of the activists, the woman in question, as she confronts supporters of Farrell, calling one of them “fucking scum.” (See here for an even-more-manipulatively propagandistic video that focuses even more intently on the woman; and here for one that more clearly depicts the police pulling, shoving, and knocking non-violent protestors to the ground.)
I don’t personally support blocking speeches by opponents; I think it’s bad both in principle and as a political tactic. But Warren Farrell certainly deserves criticism; demonstrators certainly have the right to demonstrate; and as anyone who has ever been to a demonstration knows, sometimes people on opposite sides shout at another.
Apparently the politically inexperienced “activists” at AVFM are unaware of this. And so the site has responded to the demonstration with a campaign to uncover and publicize this woman’s personal information – for the “crime” of using angry language at a protest. In one of the several posts on the subject now up on AVFM, the MRA known as JohnTheOther describes her as, among other things
her own generation’s brown shirt, and she knows it. …
She is clearly sadistic, unable and unwilling to recognize the humanity of anyone who does not slavishly and blindly agree with her own religion of hate.
There is more, much more; if you have the stomach for it, I suggest you read the full post to see JtO’s extended attack on the woman. As is often the case with MRA writings, the full quotes in context are worse than the excerpts I quote here.
A later post from site founder and head Paul Elam includes a picture of the woman, with the caption “Seeking this undesirable’s identity.”
Elam warns that
We have her image and know her general location. We will identify her and profile her activity and name for public view.
We will not stop there, or just with her. And while we will not publish our complete intent, we are dogged in our efforts.
Again, this quote is if anything worse in context; see the entire post here, filled with vituperative, thuggish, threatening language and illustrated with a picture of a violent storm, evidently intended to represent what AVFM is threatening to rain down upon its opponents.
In still another post, with the inflammatory title “Yanking Off the Hood,” Elam defends his site’s “doxxing” policy, writing
AVfM is conducting outreach and investigation into the identities of the persons involved in the violent protest against the rights of men and boys orchestrated and conducted by the University of Toronto Student Union and other antisocial elements within that institution.
To that end, one individual has already been identified, and you will be seeing a story on her here in the near future. Our search for the woman highlighted in the video of the protest continues, with some leads. …
Gender ideologues absolutely hate the light of day. They hate it shining on their ideas and on their lies. Many of them also don’t want it shining on their identities. They seek anonymity for the same reason Klansmen wear hoods.
Even beyond the vicious nature of AVFM’s language and tactics, the hypocrisy here is off the charts: most of AVFM’s writers – gender ideologues all – hide their identities behind pseudonyms, including of course JohnTheOther, who launched AVFM’s campaign against the still-unknown protester.
JtO, who now wishes to conceal his identity, used to write under his own name, and has linked his name with his pseudonym on YouTube and on Men’s Rights sites he has written for. Though his real name is fairly widely known, and can be uncovered with the simplest of web searches, JtO has now decided to try to get that cat back in the bag, and at one point demanded that I remove all mentions of his real name on this site so that he would not – irony alert — face harassment. As much as I don’t respect John, I respected this wish of his, and did so; he may want to take this issue up with his friend Elam, as a post by the AVFM head still up on the site identifies JohnTheOther by both name and pseudonym.
There is no question that the student activist targeted by JtO and AVFM will face harassment when and if her personal information is exposed. Indeed, she is already being singled out for abuse now. On YouTube, videos featuring her have inspired numerous threatening comments. Here are a sampling of comments I’ve found there:
Here you can find even more, sent to me by someone who was at the protest.
If AVFM releases the personal information of the student now being attacked online they are giving a green light for this sort of harassment online and off. They are aiding and abetting those who wish this woman to come to real physical harm.
That’s why I think it is fair to call AVFM a hate site, and a member of the abusers’ lobby.
(Meanwhile, JohnTheOther seems to be undergoing some sort of meltdown on Reddit; more on this in my next post.)
I’ve just caught up on reading about all this.
They represent themselves with a picture of a tornado yet claim to be nonviolent. It’s unbelievable. I feel awful for all the students being targeted by the new doxxing and fear campaign. My main message to the victims is that even though the MRA’s imagines themselves to be a powerful tornado, they’re really more like thunder, just a lot of noise.
That hateful woman (Vanja Krajina) was verbally harassing someone who only wanted to hear a different opinion and make up his own mind. If it was an MRA “confronting” (as you seem to describe it David F.) a feminist this way then he would deserve to be outed as well. It would be all over the media and your site as an example of a horrific “hate group” yet you seem to frame her as a victim in this article. She is no different than the hateful men in those disgusting comments you displayed. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy of this?
You don’t get it, do you? This about some middle aged men wanting to create a culture of fear so young women “learn” not to speak up. It’s about punishment.
Fuck you and your talk of hypocrisy.
Jon, the difference is that we expose the disgusting comments, but don’t try to expose the anonymous person making disgusting comments to a violent, hateful audience that then harasses them with rape and death threats. Unfortunately, your side has no such compunctions.
Also, Jon, your folks have started just showing up at feminist rallies and making a point of photographing all in attendance. They aren’t photographing people blockading anything, just people having a peaceful gathering. Women who dare to disagree with MRAs.
Own it, you violent, threatening asshat. Your intent is to be threatening, and frighten women out of exercising our rights to free speech. Asshat. You won’t win. We’ve faced much worse.
That “different opinion” being that girls would probably enjoy being molested by their fathers if there weren’t this awful cultural taboo on incest. It’s pretty alarming that you see rape apologia as a mere “difference of opinion”.
Why? What purpose is served by outing protesters? And does that purpose outweigh the chilling effect that the fear of such outing would have on people who might otherwise exercise their right to protest?
LOL. If men calling feminists “fucking scum” was newsworthy, we’d be hearing about it all the time, given how very common it is. Even to dedicated anti-MRA blogs like this one, it’s so common it hardly qualifies as news.
I must have missed the part where she expressed a desire to rape the men she was confronting, or tried to unearth their names so she could expose them to potentially violent harassment. Links?
Seeing a false equivalency for what it is is not hypocrisy. Sorry.
Do you folks think that Toronto protest was lawful? Do you feel the police did not have a legal right, nay obligation, to ask them to move, and move them by force if they refused?
Does it not strike any of you as a little off that Futrelle had to go to youtube to find trolling, hateful comments? The sorts of comments you can find on any video with sufficient views? And we are to summarily link the two by…what means, pray tell?
Finally, how on earth is that woman’s empty, hateful rhetoric dumbed down to “angry language at a protest”, while an organization that simply wants to attach her name to her behavior is elevated to a hate organization, apparently condoning behavior from another website, and another person, altogether?
Try this: go to AVfM, register, and make a comment condoning or inciting violence. Notice what happens.
So is this one person posting the same “arguments” under multiple socks, or have we just had a steady stream of guys who (a) can’t be bothered to read the thread and (b) think these tired arguments are so very insightful and compelling?
Lee, feel free to scroll up a bit if you want to see what people responded to the three or four guys before you who asked the same damn questions.
“So is this one person posting the same “arguments” under multiple socks, or have we just had a steady stream of guys…”
Idk about now, but when I was here ALL THE TIME over the summer, either would’ve been likely. My vote is on the latter if this got posted at AVfM.
Has anyone actually ever said “pray tell” and sounded as intelligent as they want to and not just like a parody of a cartoon villain?
I think “pray tell” could be used sarcastically and not sound too cartoonish. Not sure if Lee pulled it off, though…
When I was mocking glossary troll in Victorian English? Either that or I sounded like a parody of a cartoon villain…not like what I was going for was that far off.
Fuck though, wasn’t Steele a fan of “pray tell”?
I seem to remember he was.
He certainly had a writing style broadly comparable to the furthest extents of my egregiously verbose moods. Only less good.
“Pray tell” has to join “how dare you!” and “would not…” as constructions that no one who isn’t a British theater actor can sound good saying.
I’ve used “How dare you!” to good effect.
… As my excessively arrogant noble LARP character. And I’m English. And have done some amateur acting.
Yeah, OK.
… I think he may have used “Would not…” as well…
I think miss “pray tell” is driversuz.
yes every single comment ever left anywhere is 100% totally serious. especially the threats. if somebody writes “this chick should be raped” in an article comment he WILL rape that chick on-sight should he ever see her.
I’m assuming since you’re obviously a strong supporter of the feminist movement that you’ve never been victimized in one way or another by a female aggressor utilizing our culture’s current attitude towards women to destroy or seriously effect your life. Also, you can’t discredit the entire men’s rights movement just because a few huge misogynists are so outspoken. The whole idea of it, as I see it, is to replace the all to common idea that “women, naturally nurturing and loving, are always victims of men, naturally violent and cruel” with “men and women share equal capacities for different forms of violence and cruelty”. A very long time ago the feminist movement stopped earning women rights they didn’t have and started taking them away from men.
Feminism is the hate group.
These men are dangerous. I will not support them but neither will I support feminism. If feminists get back to the original first-wave mantra of protecting wives and mothers and secure our positions within our homes then I would support them, but I don’t see a shred of evidence of them going back to that. Can women not keep some dignity about ourselves and ensure ourselves basic protections from male responsibilities and be protected in regards to our families and our children without advocating for feminism whose movement has only encouraged and enabled these assholes and stripped us of literally hundreds of laws that used to protect us? MRAs are nothing but feminists. The only thing that MRAs and feminists disagree on is who is the bigger victim. They all want the same thing. Feminism has failed women. It’s never had anything to offer us. The sooner women get their head out of the mainstream propaganda the sooner they will realize this and the better off we’ll all be. If it wasn’t for feminism these MRAs would have gotten their asses kicked up and down mainstreet.
Um, “laws that used to protect [women]”? What about the laws that harmed us? Our husbands used to be able to rape us with impunity, and now they can’t. So much for feminists never having anything to offer us. And that’s just one example; if you require more, I and the others here will happily provide them.
Whaaaaa…? Protection from male responsibilities? Wtf is a male responsibility? Is this like, learning as in school? Because I like learning? Or is it working, which is a necessary evil but gives us like, adult freedom instead of being dependent on getting married off. I seriously do not get you.
If you are woman, do not presume you speak for all women. If you are a man, do not presume you speak for woman period.
MRAs are feminists? Is today Bizzaro Day?
@david barnes
Seeing as about 6% of men will admit in an anonymous survey that they have raped someone, and fewer than 6% of men have ever posted rape threats, I don’t think we need to start splitting hairs about “Oh, not everyone who SAYS they want to rape ACTUALLY want to rape.” Odds are, they do.
Okay, I’ll humor you. Which rights is feminism taking away from men?
david barnes: yes every single comment ever left anywhere is 100% totally serious. especially the threats. if somebody writes “this chick should be raped” in an article comment he WILL rape that chick on-sight should he ever see her.
No, every single comment isn’t literal. But someone went to the effort to compose it, and post it. When one has hundreds, even thousands, then the lack of, “serious intent” of any one is moot.
The collective effort is totally serious. Add the personal details and the scapegoating (to the point of villification ) based on lies and myths, and it becomes the case that you are defending terrorism.
Saying that this behavior, on the part of men, is because feminism is the hate group… you’ve fallen through the looking glass dude.
The Radical One: If this is your mantra These men are dangerous. I will not support them but neither will I support feminism. If feminists get back to the original first-wave mantra of protecting wives and mothers and secure our positions within our homes then I would support them,, then you aren’t radical, you aer reactionary.
That’s not equality you are advocating. It’s not feminism.
No.
The idea that there were “hundred of laws” which “protected us” is so wrong that it beggar description.
What laws? Coverture? The need to have a man’s permission to do things?
If it wasn’t for feminism these MRAs would have gotten their asses kicked up and down mainstreet.
Bullshit. If it weren’t for feminism the MRA World is what we’d have.
Feminism has failed women. It’s never had anything to offer us. … so the first part you said (when you were lying about first wave feminism) was bullshit too, you will never support feminism, because you don’t think it ever had anything to offer.
Why am I not surprised.