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A Voice for Men’s Attempts to Find and Publicize the Personal Information of a Toronto Activist Could Threaten That Young Woman’s Safety

cropped-man-yelling-at-computer

[TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE THREATS]

The Men’s Rights movement has been described by some as “the abusers’ lobby.” I don’t think that’s fair, but there are certainly those within the movement that fit the bill – not necessarily because they themselves are abusers, but because, among other things, they lionize abusers and advocate on their behalf.

In the case of hate site A Voice for Men, there is another way in which the term applies: the “activism” of the site and its followers, insofar as it consists of anything more than self-promotion, often mirrors the actions of abusers – AVFM is known for harassing individuals, usually women, and exposing (or threatening to expose) personal information that could be used to stalk and harm them, in an attempt to intimidate them and other feminists and shut them up. Indeed, the site on several occasions has offered $1000 “bounties” on the personal information of its foes.

Now AVFM has another individual in its sights: a young woman, presumably a student, who participated in a recent demonstration against Men’s Rights author Warren Farrell at the University of Toronto. Men’s Rights activists have been promoting a video depicting the protest, in which a group of feminist activists blockaded the building at which Farrell was speaking, until they were forcibly removed by police. The carefully-edited video pays particular attention to one of the activists, the woman in question, as she confronts supporters of Farrell, calling one of them “fucking scum.” (See here for an even-more-manipulatively propagandistic video that focuses even more intently on the woman; and here for one that more clearly depicts the police pulling, shoving, and knocking non-violent protestors to the ground.)

I don’t personally support blocking speeches by opponents; I think it’s bad both in principle and as a political tactic. But Warren Farrell certainly deserves criticism; demonstrators certainly have the right to demonstrate; and as anyone who has ever been to a demonstration knows, sometimes people on opposite sides shout at another.

Apparently the politically inexperienced “activists” at AVFM are unaware of this. And so the site has responded to the demonstration with a campaign to uncover and publicize this woman’s personal information – for the “crime” of using angry language at a protest. In one of the several posts on the subject now up on AVFM, the MRA known as JohnTheOther describes her as, among other things

her own generation’s brown shirt, and she knows it. …

She is clearly sadistic, unable and unwilling to recognize the humanity of anyone who does not slavishly and blindly agree with her own religion of hate.

There is more, much more; if you have the stomach for it, I suggest you read the full post to see JtO’s extended attack on the woman. As is often the case with MRA writings, the full quotes in context are worse than the excerpts I quote here.

A later post from site founder and head Paul Elam includes a picture of the woman, with the caption “Seeking this undesirable’s identity.”

Elam warns that

We have her image and know her general location. We will identify her and profile her activity and name for public view.

We will not stop there, or just with her. And while we will not publish our complete intent, we are dogged in our efforts.

Again, this quote is if anything worse in context; see the entire post here, filled with vituperative, thuggish, threatening language and illustrated with a picture of a violent storm, evidently intended to represent what AVFM is threatening to rain down upon its opponents.

In still another post, with the inflammatory title “Yanking Off the Hood,” Elam defends his site’s “doxxing” policy, writing

AVfM is conducting outreach and investigation into the identities of the persons involved in the violent protest against the rights of men and boys orchestrated and conducted by the University of Toronto Student Union and other antisocial elements within that institution.

To that end, one individual has already been identified, and you will be seeing a story on her here in the near future. Our search for the woman highlighted in the video of the protest continues, with some leads. …

Gender ideologues absolutely hate the light of day. They hate it shining on their ideas and on their lies. Many of them also don’t want it shining on their identities. They seek anonymity for the same reason Klansmen wear hoods.

Even beyond the vicious nature of AVFM’s language and tactics, the hypocrisy here is off the charts: most of AVFM’s writers – gender ideologues all – hide their identities behind pseudonyms, including of course JohnTheOther, who launched AVFM’s campaign against the still-unknown protester.

JtO, who now wishes to conceal his identity, used to write under his own name, and has linked his name with his pseudonym on YouTube and on Men’s Rights sites he has written for. Though his real name is fairly widely known, and can be uncovered with the simplest of web searches, JtO has now decided to try to get that cat back in the bag, and at one point demanded that I remove all mentions of his real name on this site so that he would not – irony alert — face harassment. As much as I don’t respect John, I respected this wish of his, and did so; he may want to take this issue up with his friend Elam, as a post by the AVFM head still up on the site identifies JohnTheOther by both name and pseudonym.

There is no question that the student activist targeted by JtO and AVFM will face harassment when and if her personal information is exposed. Indeed, she is already being singled out for abuse now. On YouTube, videos featuring her have inspired numerous threatening comments. Here are a sampling of comments I’ve found there:

ytwf2ytwf5ytwf6ytwf7ytwf8

Here you can find even more, sent to me by someone who was at the protest.

If AVFM releases the personal information of the student now being attacked online they are giving a green light for this sort of harassment online and off. They are aiding and abetting those who wish this woman to come to real physical harm.

That’s why I think it is fair to call AVFM a hate site, and a member of the abusers’ lobby.

(Meanwhile, JohnTheOther seems to be undergoing some sort of meltdown on Reddit; more on this in my next post.)

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The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Unless the car owner is a woman, of course. Because women drivers, dood, amirite?

Amused
8 years ago

Unless the car owner is a woman, of course. Because women drivers, dood, amirite?

That’s right. Any uppity bitch who drives instead of letting a man drive deserves to get carjacked AND raped.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

But she shouldn’t be asking whining for a man to drive her around! It’s like those gold-digging whores in Saudi Arabia, innit?

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

By the way, if you want to have any moral high ground, it’s usually a good idea to keep the “gets sexual release” memes out of the way, unless you wish to be deemed a hypocrite.

Uh. Why?

Also, I’m not sure if you realise, but whenever anyone of you says “what about the menz?” sarcastically, while I’m sure you think it’s clever, it’s actually a reverse “Dear Muslima” and, again, a tad hypocritical.

Well, I guess since you asserted it, it’s true.

And there is no indication what so ever that they’re looking to reveal the home address or other such crucial information in the blog posts you link to, that’s sensationalist nonsense

Yeah, you’re right. I mean, it’s not like there’s some kind of systematic effort to go after the identities of small-fry feminists—oh, wait.

There have been other examples, like Creepy Bittergirl, exposed as Sasha Wiley by first Mykeru, and subsequently this website, who is now making the Watsonesque claims of internet bullying, seeking sympathy and support, like a damsel in distress, from other hate mongers.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Oh, darn. Now pitchguest isn’t going to be able to regale me with tales of how feminists regularly talk about getting off on fucking MRAs’ shit up and that we are therefore hypocrites.

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

THIS IS SOMETHING CHILDREN LEARN FAIRLY EARLY ON. WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR MRAs TO UNDERSTAND?

I’m just gonna leave this here…

pecunium
8 years ago

gateman: Pecunium, there’s a world of difference between someone posting comments online and those conducting criminal activity which is what the blockade was.

Non-responsive. JtO says he has to hide his name to prevent being attacked. AvFM wants to, “fuck their shit up”, has Thomas Ball’s appeal to violence on it’s front page and is saying, “here is her name, she goes to school here, and she is evil”.

That’s more than just, “here’s her twitter stream”.

And harassment, online; as well as off, is criminal.

Again, your “moral high ground” is well below sea-level.

Moreover, your claim of, “criminal activity” suffers from several problems. 1: You have yet to show that she actively attempted to commit a crime.

2: You haven’t told me what crime you believe to have been committed (that will require the statute in question).

3: The presumptive condition is that she committed no crime(s) as there was a police presence, and arrests were made. A reasonable person would have to assume that had she been committing a crime, she would (as others were) have been arrested.

pecunium
8 years ago

Pitchguest: Err. Yeah. I’m pretty sure that with the right determination, anyone could find the personal information of whomever their chagrin lies with at that moment. However, there is no evidence that AVfM is looking to reveal the home address of this woman, nor threaten her

They are threatening her. They have people in there fora who are calling for her to be raped: threats at least as plausible as her “desire to kill all men”.

AvFM has made it much easier for those people to find her.

That is a threat. Not, perhaps, overt; but actual nonetheless. One that their members admit to being a threat; as they go all sorts of rage-filled at the merest hint that one of them might get doxxed (see anti-manboobz for a ridiculous example of this).

pecunium
8 years ago

And,.. I see pitchguest can’t reply. Crushed am I to be deprived of his response.

princessbonbon
8 years ago

Funny how feminists continue to believe that women have no agency and should never be held accountable for their actions and choices.

You know how you hold someone to account for their actions and choices (and oft times their words?)

If it is illegal, you contact the authorities and report on it.

If it is not illegal, you outline what it is and you explain why it is wrong. “Saying that incest is good because people do like it is wrong because the person who said that ignores the very real pain that it has caused. Here is a study that shows this.”

You do not publish the person’s personal info and say “oh I hope no one hurts them…wink wink”

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Shit suz posted:

““I have no refutation of your arguments,”
If anybody here were making arguments instead of squawking out spastic leaps of ‘logic,’ I’d be all in. Instead all you can offer is some weird variations on:
“Give some examples of misandry.”
So I make a short list and get responses like:
“That’s not an argument, it’s a list” {duhhhh}
“Some of that stuff is real, but the most important thing is the fact that Suz is creepy, hates women, has issues with her son, is a man…..”
“Divorce theft is not a ‘thing.’”
“You don’t agree with me, therefore you must be “fill-in-the-blank.”

“Like I said, sixth grade girls. Drunk sixth grade girls playing house with stuffed animals. Boobzie is a joke and Booblets are the punchline. No wonder his readership is falling off; what “serious” feminist who wants to be taken seriously, can afford to be allied with this crowd? You grrrlz aren’t the only ones who come here for laughs.”

OK.
Boobzie is a joke? Then it’s a joke you take very seriously. Otherwise, why the hell do you keep showing up here? Because Man Boobz is a joke, dude? Where the hell did you get “his readership is falling off.” ?
Also, You called us “grrrlz.” Gee, that’s not signifigant, is it, fella? Or referring to our replies as “squawking.”
Your bullshit list of misandry was WEAK. A fifth grader could have shot holes through it. Ladies Night? Bumbling sitcom dads? Mean t-shirts? Rape reports being taken seriously is misandry? Complaining about the draft, when there is no active draft, at a time women are fighting to be equals in the armed forces? Oh, and you didn’t call it “divorce theft,” you called it “divorce rape.”

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

Again, your “moral high ground” is well below sea-level.

Somewhere around the level of the Mariana Trench, like the rest of that cohort.

Xanthë
8 years ago

Hello David and MBz, long time, no see! I gather you’ve had a visitation from Pitchguest, who’s one of the fulminating misogynist Rebecca Watson haters from the aptly-named ‘Slymepit’ forum. He shouldn’t be too cocky, seeing as the trollish commentariat there are well-known for ‘doxxing’ people when it suits them. Like the MRA douchebag and sometime AVfM contributor Justin Vacula publishing a feminist skeptic’s home address and even putting up a picture of her apartment building on there.

TL,DR: Nothing of value will be lost by banning him, or any of his ilk.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

I gather you’ve had a visitation from Pitchguest, who’s one of the fulminating misogynist Rebecca Watson haters from the aptly-named ‘Slymepit’ forum.

That explains quite a bit.

sidestinkappleeye
8 years ago

The sitcom dad: Why, when looking for misandry do they only look at sitcoms or jokey commercials? There are dramas, shows with actions and I have not seen the bumbling husband in those shows, yet some of them do have the nagging wife or hysterical woman. I always thought you only see that in comedies because the thought of a husband being dumber than his wife is so absurd it’s funny. At any rate there are plenty of depictions of great men doing great things in shows that are not comedies.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

Then cherrypicking the comments on the video to highlight the ones about raping her, as if that’s the extent of what the comments there are like, is dishonest and slimy.

Not all the comments are talking about raping her, so it’s unfair to talk about the ones that are!

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

@SSAE and the bumbling husband is still able to hold onto his hot and doting mother-wife, who does all the housework and child-rearing and forgives him for forgetting their anniversary again *laughtrack*, and loves him in spite of it all, because….well, we’re never shown why she loves him, but we’re told she does, and that’s good enough! Right?

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Psh, nobody ever talks about the 40-something presidents Oswald didn’t shoot. And yet he gets shot and killed for just one?

I call misandry.

Fucking Loser
Fucking Loser
8 years ago

@ princessbonbon

Why not?

If you Feminist are so damn sure that what you say is so moral and great you would have no qualm about people finding out who you are. Unless of course you are cowards hiding under anonymity.

If you are so proud of what you write/say why not have yourself known?

Aren’t Feminist proud of what they stand for?

Or if anyone actually met you in person you would be horrified and ashamed?

This is going mainstream. Toronto is a start. Interesting.

Cassie
Cassie
8 years ago

I find doxxing to be highly hypocritical. If you listen to them they assert if a woman tells her friend she was raped and that friend goes and does violence to the alleged rapist then the woman herself is culpable for this action. Men are helpless but to obey primal urges delivered from the lizard brain to protect women and every woman knows this!

Here however if their actions lead to violence they are not to blame, violence by proxy only applies if you are a woman, particularly if you have been victimised.

It is just a continuation of the trope that women are responsible for mens actions as seen in most victim blaming and rape apologism.

Frank James Spencer
8 years ago

Time for a poster run…

http://youtu.be/uuS0DcJiIMY

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

If you JohntheOther is so damn sure that what he says is so moral and great he would have no qualm about people finding out who he is. Unless of course he’s a coward hiding under anonymity.

I don’t agree with that; I like the interwebs being anonymous; I do, however, think you’re being Way Inconsistent there, Loser.

Oh, and the other reason to want to be anonymous is that while we’re sure we’re morally right, we also know there are deeply unpleasant and odious people out there who’d harass us if they had our email or meatspace addresses, so there’s a practicality to it.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
8 years ago

Again, this quote is if anything worse in context; see the entire post here, filled with vituperative, thuggish, threatening language and illustrated with a picture of a violent storm, evidently intended to represent what AVFM is threatening to rain down upon its opponents.

I’ve just caught up on reading about all this.

They represent themselves with a picture of a tornado yet claim to be nonviolent. It’s unbelievable. I feel awful for all the students being targeted by the new doxxing and fear campaign. My main message to the victims is that even though the MRA’s imagines themselves to be a powerful tornado, they’re really more like thunder, just a lot of noise.

Jon Curtis
Jon Curtis
8 years ago

That hateful woman (Vanja Krajina) was verbally harassing someone who only wanted to hear a different opinion and make up his own mind. If it was an MRA “confronting” (as you seem to describe it David F.) a feminist this way then he would deserve to be outed as well. It would be all over the media and your site as an example of a horrific “hate group” yet you seem to frame her as a victim in this article. She is no different than the hateful men in those disgusting comments you displayed. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy of this?

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

You don’t get it, do you? This about some middle aged men wanting to create a culture of fear so young women “learn” not to speak up. It’s about punishment.

Fuck you and your talk of hypocrisy.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Jon, the difference is that we expose the disgusting comments, but don’t try to expose the anonymous person making disgusting comments to a violent, hateful audience that then harasses them with rape and death threats. Unfortunately, your side has no such compunctions.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Also, Jon, your folks have started just showing up at feminist rallies and making a point of photographing all in attendance. They aren’t photographing people blockading anything, just people having a peaceful gathering. Women who dare to disagree with MRAs.

Own it, you violent, threatening asshat. Your intent is to be threatening, and frighten women out of exercising our rights to free speech. Asshat. You won’t win. We’ve faced much worse.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

That hateful woman was verbally harassing someone who only wanted to hear a different opinion and make up his own mind.

That “different opinion” being that girls would probably enjoy being molested by their fathers if there weren’t this awful cultural taboo on incest. It’s pretty alarming that you see rape apologia as a mere “difference of opinion”.

If it was an MRA “confronting” (as you seem to describe it David F.) a feminist this way then he would deserve to be outed as well.

Why? What purpose is served by outing protesters? And does that purpose outweigh the chilling effect that the fear of such outing would have on people who might otherwise exercise their right to protest?

It would be all over the media and your site as an example of a horrific “hate group”

LOL. If men calling feminists “fucking scum” was newsworthy, we’d be hearing about it all the time, given how very common it is. Even to dedicated anti-MRA blogs like this one, it’s so common it hardly qualifies as news.

She is no different than the hateful men in those disgusting comments you displayed.

I must have missed the part where she expressed a desire to rape the men she was confronting, or tried to unearth their names so she could expose them to potentially violent harassment. Links?

Why do you refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy of this?

Seeing a false equivalency for what it is is not hypocrisy. Sorry.

Lee
Lee
8 years ago

Do you folks think that Toronto protest was lawful? Do you feel the police did not have a legal right, nay obligation, to ask them to move, and move them by force if they refused?

Does it not strike any of you as a little off that Futrelle had to go to youtube to find trolling, hateful comments? The sorts of comments you can find on any video with sufficient views? And we are to summarily link the two by…what means, pray tell?

Finally, how on earth is that woman’s empty, hateful rhetoric dumbed down to “angry language at a protest”, while an organization that simply wants to attach her name to her behavior is elevated to a hate organization, apparently condoning behavior from another website, and another person, altogether?

Try this: go to AVfM, register, and make a comment condoning or inciting violence. Notice what happens.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

So is this one person posting the same “arguments” under multiple socks, or have we just had a steady stream of guys who (a) can’t be bothered to read the thread and (b) think these tired arguments are so very insightful and compelling?

Lee, feel free to scroll up a bit if you want to see what people responded to the three or four guys before you who asked the same damn questions.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“So is this one person posting the same “arguments” under multiple socks, or have we just had a steady stream of guys…”

Idk about now, but when I was here ALL THE TIME over the summer, either would’ve been likely. My vote is on the latter if this got posted at AVfM.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

Has anyone actually ever said “pray tell” and sounded as intelligent as they want to and not just like a parody of a cartoon villain?

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

I think “pray tell” could be used sarcastically and not sound too cartoonish. Not sure if Lee pulled it off, though…

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

When I was mocking glossary troll in Victorian English? Either that or I sounded like a parody of a cartoon villain…not like what I was going for was that far off.

Fuck though, wasn’t Steele a fan of “pray tell”?

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

I seem to remember he was.

He certainly had a writing style broadly comparable to the furthest extents of my egregiously verbose moods. Only less good.

katz
8 years ago

“Pray tell” has to join “how dare you!” and “would not…” as constructions that no one who isn’t a British theater actor can sound good saying.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

I’ve used “How dare you!” to good effect.

… As my excessively arrogant noble LARP character. And I’m English. And have done some amateur acting.

Yeah, OK.

… I think he may have used “Would not…” as well…

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I think miss “pray tell” is driversuz.

david barnes
david barnes
8 years ago

yes every single comment ever left anywhere is 100% totally serious. especially the threats. if somebody writes “this chick should be raped” in an article comment he WILL rape that chick on-sight should he ever see her.

I’m assuming since you’re obviously a strong supporter of the feminist movement that you’ve never been victimized in one way or another by a female aggressor utilizing our culture’s current attitude towards women to destroy or seriously effect your life. Also, you can’t discredit the entire men’s rights movement just because a few huge misogynists are so outspoken. The whole idea of it, as I see it, is to replace the all to common idea that “women, naturally nurturing and loving, are always victims of men, naturally violent and cruel” with “men and women share equal capacities for different forms of violence and cruelty”. A very long time ago the feminist movement stopped earning women rights they didn’t have and started taking them away from men.

Feminism is the hate group.

The Radical One
The Radical One
8 years ago

These men are dangerous. I will not support them but neither will I support feminism. If feminists get back to the original first-wave mantra of protecting wives and mothers and secure our positions within our homes then I would support them, but I don’t see a shred of evidence of them going back to that. Can women not keep some dignity about ourselves and ensure ourselves basic protections from male responsibilities and be protected in regards to our families and our children without advocating for feminism whose movement has only encouraged and enabled these assholes and stripped us of literally hundreds of laws that used to protect us? MRAs are nothing but feminists. The only thing that MRAs and feminists disagree on is who is the bigger victim. They all want the same thing. Feminism has failed women. It’s never had anything to offer us. The sooner women get their head out of the mainstream propaganda the sooner they will realize this and the better off we’ll all be. If it wasn’t for feminism these MRAs would have gotten their asses kicked up and down mainstreet.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

Um, “laws that used to protect [women]”? What about the laws that harmed us? Our husbands used to be able to rape us with impunity, and now they can’t. So much for feminists never having anything to offer us. And that’s just one example; if you require more, I and the others here will happily provide them.

Fade
8 years ago

Can women not keep some dignity about ourselves and ensure ourselves basic protections from male responsibilities

Whaaaaa…? Protection from male responsibilities? Wtf is a male responsibility? Is this like, learning as in school? Because I like learning? Or is it working, which is a necessary evil but gives us like, adult freedom instead of being dependent on getting married off. I seriously do not get you.

If you are woman, do not presume you speak for all women. If you are a man, do not presume you speak for woman period.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

MRAs are feminists? Is today Bizzaro Day?

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@david barnes

Seeing as about 6% of men will admit in an anonymous survey that they have raped someone, and fewer than 6% of men have ever posted rape threats, I don’t think we need to start splitting hairs about “Oh, not everyone who SAYS they want to rape ACTUALLY want to rape.” Odds are, they do.

Fade
8 years ago

A very long time ago the feminist movement stopped earning women rights they didn’t have and started taking them away from men.

Okay, I’ll humor you. Which rights is feminism taking away from men?

pecunium
8 years ago

david barnes: yes every single comment ever left anywhere is 100% totally serious. especially the threats. if somebody writes “this chick should be raped” in an article comment he WILL rape that chick on-sight should he ever see her.

No, every single comment isn’t literal. But someone went to the effort to compose it, and post it. When one has hundreds, even thousands, then the lack of, “serious intent” of any one is moot.

The collective effort is totally serious. Add the personal details and the scapegoating (to the point of villification ) based on lies and myths, and it becomes the case that you are defending terrorism.

Saying that this behavior, on the part of men, is because feminism is the hate group… you’ve fallen through the looking glass dude.

pecunium
8 years ago

The Radical One: If this is your mantra These men are dangerous. I will not support them but neither will I support feminism. If feminists get back to the original first-wave mantra of protecting wives and mothers and secure our positions within our homes then I would support them,, then you aren’t radical, you aer reactionary.

That’s not equality you are advocating. It’s not feminism.

Can women not keep some dignity about ourselves and ensure ourselves basic protections from male responsibilities and be protected in regards to our families and our children without advocating for feminism

No.

The idea that there were “hundred of laws” which “protected us” is so wrong that it beggar description.

What laws? Coverture? The need to have a man’s permission to do things?

If it wasn’t for feminism these MRAs would have gotten their asses kicked up and down mainstreet.

Bullshit. If it weren’t for feminism the MRA World is what we’d have.

Feminism has failed women. It’s never had anything to offer us. … so the first part you said (when you were lying about first wave feminism) was bullshit too, you will never support feminism, because you don’t think it ever had anything to offer.

Why am I not surprised.