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A Voice for Men’s Attempts to Find and Publicize the Personal Information of a Toronto Activist Could Threaten That Young Woman’s Safety

cropped-man-yelling-at-computer

[TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE THREATS]

The Men’s Rights movement has been described by some as “the abusers’ lobby.” I don’t think that’s fair, but there are certainly those within the movement that fit the bill – not necessarily because they themselves are abusers, but because, among other things, they lionize abusers and advocate on their behalf.

In the case of hate site A Voice for Men, there is another way in which the term applies: the “activism” of the site and its followers, insofar as it consists of anything more than self-promotion, often mirrors the actions of abusers – AVFM is known for harassing individuals, usually women, and exposing (or threatening to expose) personal information that could be used to stalk and harm them, in an attempt to intimidate them and other feminists and shut them up. Indeed, the site on several occasions has offered $1000 “bounties” on the personal information of its foes.

Now AVFM has another individual in its sights: a young woman, presumably a student, who participated in a recent demonstration against Men’s Rights author Warren Farrell at the University of Toronto. Men’s Rights activists have been promoting a video depicting the protest, in which a group of feminist activists blockaded the building at which Farrell was speaking, until they were forcibly removed by police. The carefully-edited video pays particular attention to one of the activists, the woman in question, as she confronts supporters of Farrell, calling one of them “fucking scum.” (See here for an even-more-manipulatively propagandistic video that focuses even more intently on the woman; and here for one that more clearly depicts the police pulling, shoving, and knocking non-violent protestors to the ground.)

I don’t personally support blocking speeches by opponents; I think it’s bad both in principle and as a political tactic. But Warren Farrell certainly deserves criticism; demonstrators certainly have the right to demonstrate; and as anyone who has ever been to a demonstration knows, sometimes people on opposite sides shout at another.

Apparently the politically inexperienced “activists” at AVFM are unaware of this. And so the site has responded to the demonstration with a campaign to uncover and publicize this woman’s personal information – for the “crime” of using angry language at a protest. In one of the several posts on the subject now up on AVFM, the MRA known as JohnTheOther describes her as, among other things

her own generation’s brown shirt, and she knows it. …

She is clearly sadistic, unable and unwilling to recognize the humanity of anyone who does not slavishly and blindly agree with her own religion of hate.

There is more, much more; if you have the stomach for it, I suggest you read the full post to see JtO’s extended attack on the woman. As is often the case with MRA writings, the full quotes in context are worse than the excerpts I quote here.

A later post from site founder and head Paul Elam includes a picture of the woman, with the caption “Seeking this undesirable’s identity.”

Elam warns that

We have her image and know her general location. We will identify her and profile her activity and name for public view.

We will not stop there, or just with her. And while we will not publish our complete intent, we are dogged in our efforts.

Again, this quote is if anything worse in context; see the entire post here, filled with vituperative, thuggish, threatening language and illustrated with a picture of a violent storm, evidently intended to represent what AVFM is threatening to rain down upon its opponents.

In still another post, with the inflammatory title “Yanking Off the Hood,” Elam defends his site’s “doxxing” policy, writing

AVfM is conducting outreach and investigation into the identities of the persons involved in the violent protest against the rights of men and boys orchestrated and conducted by the University of Toronto Student Union and other antisocial elements within that institution.

To that end, one individual has already been identified, and you will be seeing a story on her here in the near future. Our search for the woman highlighted in the video of the protest continues, with some leads. …

Gender ideologues absolutely hate the light of day. They hate it shining on their ideas and on their lies. Many of them also don’t want it shining on their identities. They seek anonymity for the same reason Klansmen wear hoods.

Even beyond the vicious nature of AVFM’s language and tactics, the hypocrisy here is off the charts: most of AVFM’s writers – gender ideologues all – hide their identities behind pseudonyms, including of course JohnTheOther, who launched AVFM’s campaign against the still-unknown protester.

JtO, who now wishes to conceal his identity, used to write under his own name, and has linked his name with his pseudonym on YouTube and on Men’s Rights sites he has written for. Though his real name is fairly widely known, and can be uncovered with the simplest of web searches, JtO has now decided to try to get that cat back in the bag, and at one point demanded that I remove all mentions of his real name on this site so that he would not – irony alert — face harassment. As much as I don’t respect John, I respected this wish of his, and did so; he may want to take this issue up with his friend Elam, as a post by the AVFM head still up on the site identifies JohnTheOther by both name and pseudonym.

There is no question that the student activist targeted by JtO and AVFM will face harassment when and if her personal information is exposed. Indeed, she is already being singled out for abuse now. On YouTube, videos featuring her have inspired numerous threatening comments. Here are a sampling of comments I’ve found there:

ytwf2ytwf5ytwf6ytwf7ytwf8

Here you can find even more, sent to me by someone who was at the protest.

If AVFM releases the personal information of the student now being attacked online they are giving a green light for this sort of harassment online and off. They are aiding and abetting those who wish this woman to come to real physical harm.

That’s why I think it is fair to call AVFM a hate site, and a member of the abusers’ lobby.

(Meanwhile, JohnTheOther seems to be undergoing some sort of meltdown on Reddit; more on this in my next post.)

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The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

I asked her that too, hellkell. I’m not putting any bets on us getting an answer.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Can’t be holding a girl accountable now, can we? Perhaps if she wanted privacy, she could have avoided the camera. Or perhaps she’s too stupid to have noticed it a foot from her face.

Elam, JTO and GWW whining about being held accountable by reddit for their open attempt to dox the woman in question. We can’t go holding a man accountable for something he does to a female right?

Any comment, Failsuz? Or is accountability just for women females, and avoiding it primarily the province of feminism?

cloudiah
8 years ago

I dare driversuz to publicly disagree with PaulE on something substantial in the AVfM comments. I would totally make popcorn and settle in to watch that shitstorm.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

cloudiah: I’ll bring the drinks to the shitstorm party.

BASTA!
BASTA!
8 years ago

Thanks for free publicity, Futrelle. Keep up the good work.

Amused
8 years ago

People who themselves hide behind pseudonyms have no business lecturing others about being “held accountable” by being subjected to harassment, threats and possible violence. If you want to teach us a lesson about the kind of accountability you are preaching here, Suz, kindly post your real name and address. I, for one, will be happy to disseminate it. Somehow I doubt you would receive death and rape threats, but I also know with certainty that you will continue to blabber on about “accountability” from behind an opaque screen. It’s clear from your words that you are a giant hypocrite and a bully. Though I think that last bit was redundant.

cherabushka
8 years ago

@BASTA!

“All publicity is good publicity” really isn’t a good slogan for activism. I assure you that no one who is reading this blog goes up and thinks “Hey! What these guys are saying totally sounds sane and reasonable, I think I’ll join in!” except for the comment trolls.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Is BASTA! negging David? This is weird.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Aaaaaaaand PASTA! and the point continue to elude one another.

goodrumo
8 years ago

Reblogged this on iheariseeilearn.

sidestinkappleeye
8 years ago

And so began the idea for an angry PASTA! Poster. http://noldai.deviantart.com/art/Motivational-Angry-Pasta-131234439

Sweet Dreams 893
Sweet Dreams 893
8 years ago

You’re such a nice person to erase JtO’s real name from your site. If you were writing under a pseudonym, he would not even consider doing the same for you. He is a coward. A grown man bullying kids who are likely teenagers, outright lying and exaggerating to justify it, and hiding behind a pseudonym. It’s too late. His real name and location is known and there is no hiding it.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

@sidestinkappleeye – ROFL love that pasta poster!

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

I’m I crazy, or is BASTA! an idiot?

Suz, you’re a coward.

sidestinkappleeye
8 years ago

so BASTA! will feel the love he needs.
http://i.imgur.com/ker6h.jpg

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

“I’m I crazy, or is BASTA! an idiot?”

I’m votin’ for the second option.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

Everyone knows who David is, and he hasn’t been assaulted or murdered, and he is one of hte most hated feminists on the planet.

LOL. The only ones who hate David are MRAs, and they hardly represent even .0000001% of the planet. What a perfect example of your inflated self-importance.

cloudiah
8 years ago

So many great things going on tonight! sidestinkappleeye, did you make all of those?

tarynhart
tarynhart
8 years ago

“Fucking scum”? Go suggest on reddit – not in men’s rights just generally on reddit – that there’s sexism in gaming or on reddit. You’ll be called cunt, scum, whore, skank, feminazi over and over and over. And if you point out the misogyny, you’ll be told you’re too sensitive.

Not sure if you’re aware, but men’s rights will not allow any Gawker magazine links because they oppose doxxing. So, if this site is doxxing, the site should not be linked (at the very least).

kysokisaen
8 years ago

Not to mention that beyond the whining about being held accountable for the ‘doxxing’ – because most people are not disingenuous morons and know exactly what is the point of pairing a woman’s personal information with a bunch of hyperbolic rhetoric and rape threats- is that the whole reason they chose to dox is to protect themselves from being held accountable for the end results of their desires. They’re playing the lottery: probably if they find and post her address she won’t be physically assaulted, but maaayyyyybbeeee, who knows? Wouldn’t that be a damn shame? Anyway, the consequences for making sure she got her consequences will be someone else’s problem. If they wanted it done right, they’d do it themselves. But they’re less interested in if it gets done right-or at all- if it comes at their own expense.

Neurite
Neurite
8 years ago

@aworldanonymous: If it makes you feel any better, most of society does hold youtube commenters threatening rape in profound contempt. More subtle rape apologism may not be scorned by much of society like it should be, but the vast majority of society would indeed despise these youtube commenters. They only feel safe to say this because of internet anonymity. It’s not much, but it’s something.

pecunium
8 years ago

Suzie: Can’t be holding a girl accountable now, can we?

And it’s horrid to be saying the people who are threatening her are awful people.

Can’t be holding them accountable now, can we?

pecunium
8 years ago

I wonder if Steele is following this little kabuki of AVfM and JtO?

All that peacable, anti-violence, and all.

Jayem Griffin
8 years ago

Loving the poster idea. Maybe with a few SCENTED FUCKING CANDLES.

@kysokisaen: Which makes their delusions of heroism even funnier. You’d think if they were really all that devoted to their cause, they’d be tripping over one another to take responsibility if, gods forbid, anything did happen.

driversuz
driversuz
8 years ago

It’s like watching a circus, only less organized. See ya. Or not; this shit gets old fast.

mxe354
mxe354
8 years ago

driversuz,

“Can’t be holding a girl accountable now, can we? Perhaps if she wanted privacy, she could have avoided the camera. Or perhaps she’s too stupid to have noticed it a foot from her face.”

So, you believe that threatening to rape someone for voicing a contrary opinion and insulting another person is okay, right? No? Then fuck off.

cloudiah
8 years ago

It’s like watching a circus, only less organized. See ya. Or not; this shit gets old fast.

Meaning, in other words, that driversuz has no way to respond to the counterarguments to her shit. Kind of sad, really.

pecunium
8 years ago

Cloudiah: Yeah, and that shit gets old… fast.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Driversuz’s shit is so old it’s practically a coprolite.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Failsuz’s argument are so old and dead they’re turning up in riverbeds as diamonds.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Nah, that’d mean they’re worth something if they’re compressed enough.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

It would explain why DeBeers is artificially limiting the supply of Failsuz’s comments, however.

katz
8 years ago

“Existing.” That’s what you call it.

Is this going to be our next semantic debate?

inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

It’s like watching a circus, only less organized. See ya. Or not; this shit gets old fast.

“I have no refutation of your arguments, and therefore shall declare my victory by fiat.

I win because I’m better than you! The end!”

driversuz
driversuz
8 years ago

““I have no refutation of your arguments,”
If anybody here were making arguments instead of squawking out spastic leaps of ‘logic,’ I’d be all in. Instead all you can offer is some weird variations on:
“Give some examples of misandry.”
So I make a short list and get responses like:
“That’s not an argument, it’s a list” {duhhhh}
“Some of that stuff is real, but the most important thing is the fact that Suz is creepy, hates women, has issues with her son, is a man…..”
“Divorce theft is not a ‘thing.'”
“You don’t agree with me, therefore you must be “fill-in-the-blank.”

Like I said, sixth grade girls. Drunk sixth grade girls playing house with stuffed animals. Boobzie is a joke and Booblets are the punchline. No wonder his readership is falling off; what “serious” feminist who wants to be taken seriously, can afford to be allied with this crowd? You grrrlz aren’t the only ones who come here for laughs.

Amused
8 years ago

Driversuz: You don’t sound like you are laughing.

Also, hate to break it to you, but name calling =/= “logic”. Also, using the words “leaps of logic” in a poorly constructed sentence doesn’t make you logical either.

Kim
Kim
8 years ago

I understand your position now Suz. If you redefine misandry to mean “not being able to rape with impunity” and “not being able to leave your children to starve” then I can see how you would see that everywhere, since that is what the rest of us call “common decency” and it is, in fact, everywhere.

One thing you did touch on was circumcision, which I do agree needs to be stopped.However, it’s been declining as feminism has increased, so it’s not something that can be blamed on feminism.

Do you care about the ways men are *actually* being discriminated against? Like being told there is only one correct way to be a man?

inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

Suzy D, you were refuted, point-by-point, repeatedly. You ignored it all. You’ve never explained how anything we’ve said is a leap of logic. Your selective perception is amazing.

You bring nothing but empty dishes to the table and declare it a feast. I’m glad you’re having fun, because you certainly aren’t doing anything more meaningful.

pecunium
8 years ago

Suz: The problem you are having is you aren’t making arguments. You are making assertions.

Let me help you with some of the rules of argument

What is an argument? In academic writing, an argument is usually a main idea, often called a “claim” or “thesis statement,” backed up with evidence that supports the idea.

The required elements are:

1: Proof that you understand the material, AND

2: A demonstration of your ability to use or apply the material in ways that go beyond what you have read or heard.

What arguments aren’t:

Arguments in academic writing are usually complex and take time to develop. Your argument will need to be more than a simple or obvious statement such as “Frank Lloyd Wright was a great architect.” Such a statement might capture your initial impressions of Wright as you have studied him in class; however, you need to look deeper and express specifically what caused that “greatness.”

Your real failing is here:

Do not stop with having a point. You have to back up your point with evidence. The strength of your evidence, and your use of it, can make or break your argument. You already have the natural inclination for this type of thinking, if not in an academic setting. Think about how you talked your parents into letting you borrow the family car. Did you present them with lots of instances of your past trustworthiness? Did you make them feel guilty because your friends’ parents all let them drive? Did you whine until they just wanted you to shut up? Did you look up statistics on teen driving and use them to show how you didn’t fit the dangerous-driver profile? These are all types of argumentation, and they exist in academia in similar forms.

You stopped right about here.

For example you claimed, “look at any commercial with men and women

That was refuted. Your claim was countered with evidence.

Most of your assertions were so thin as to need no more than a simple dismissal (as I did when I said you didn’t provide evidence, you merely retorted with a list)> Other people (more charitable than I), were kind enough to detail the gross, and terminal, failings in your work.

Some other things you might (as a general rule) want to consider.

Do some research. It may seem to you that no one could possibly disagree with the position you are arguing, but someone probably has. For example, some people argue that the American Civil War never ended. If you are making an argument concerning, for example, the outcomes of the Civil War, you might wish to see what some of these people have to say….

When you are summarizing opposing arguments, be charitable. Present each argument fairly and objectively, rather than trying to make it look foolish. You want to show that you have seriously considered the many sides of the issue and that you are not simply attacking or caricaturing your opponents….

Critical reading is a big part of understanding argument. Although some of the material you read will be very persuasive, do not fall under the spell of the printed word as authority. Very few of your instructors think of the texts they assign as the last word on the subject. Remember that the author of every text has an agenda, something that he or she wants you to believe. This is OK—everything is written from someone’s perspective—but it’s a good thing to be aware of. (For more information on objectivity and bias, please read our handout on evaluating print sources)….

pecunium
8 years ago

Suz: No wonder his readership is falling off;

Citation?

I don’t see the superficial evidence of it. There are regulars (some of whom have been active for years), occasional commenters (some of whom have been active for years) and new commenters.

Dave gets shout outs from sources in various places (including the MRM, which seems to pay fairly close attention to him, all in all). The SPLC noted some of his work.

Heck, you say you’ve been quietly reading for months.

You grrrlz aren’t the only ones who come here for laughs.

You may be coming for laughs, but they seem to be less spontaneous chuckles, and more the forced response of the studio audience looking at the “Laugh” lights.

titianblue
titianblue
8 years ago

Suz: You called it divorce RAPE. Not divorce THEFT. Own your bigotry!

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Look at Suz try to weasel away from her use of “divorce rape.” Backpedal much?

titianblue: she’s be easier to take if she owned any of her positions. All of our trolls seem to think the scroll function on our computers is disabled.

Suz, this is one of many reasons you’re a joke.

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

Instead all you can offer is some weird variations on:
“Give some examples of misandry.”
So I make a short list and get responses like:
“That’s not an argument, it’s a list” {duhhhh}
“Some of that stuff is real, but the most important thing is the fact that Suz is creepy, hates women, has issues with her son, is a man…..”
“Divorce theft is not a ‘thing.’”
“You don’t agree with me, therefore you must be “fill-in-the-blank.”

This is how I know you didn’t read either full-length posts responding to your list. I point-blank offered to work with you on an issue. (However, since I do actually give a shit, the offer still stands if you ever come up with any ideas to address that particular issue.)

You called it divorce RAPE. Not divorce THEFT. Own your bigotry!

Also, this.

Tracy
8 years ago

Still fairly new to all of this – so are Elam et al saying that since these protesters were demonstrating at a speech by this one particular person (Warren Farrell), they are therefore against men in general? And because one of them was all, like, yelling and shit, she deserves to be punished via doxxing (and oops, whatever else may happen when ppl get her home address, tee hee)?

So… to them then, does Warren Farrell represent their ‘movement’, therefore if you don’t agree with him, you’re against the whole shabang? Is he their Jesus? Or should I forget about trying to figure out their logic, because it doesn’t actually exist?

Suz is pretty classic – drop a faulty argument/claim and then completely ignore any and all responses. I don’t understand why she (or any of them) wouldn’t WANT to get better at debate and proper argument as to be more of an asset to her beloved movement. Suz seriously, step it up sistah!

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Forget trying to figure out their logic. You’ll just give yourself a headache.

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

“Or should I forget about trying to figure out their logic, because it doesn’t actually exist?”

As far as I can tell, this seems to be the way to go.

“I don’t understand why she (or any of them) wouldn’t WANT to get better at debate and proper argument as to be more of an asset to her beloved movement.”

They all suffer a massive case of Dunning-Kruger effect, where they think their MAN BRAINS make them automatically rational and therefore more intelligent. What they don’t understand is that if they actually spent time learning how to have open, honest, rational discussions about things, they would realize that all of their arguments against feminism would be shown to be completely invalid.

cloudiah
8 years ago

We’ll they’ve started their doxxing, and it’s not even their main target. Any woman who participates in a protest against misogynists is fair game to have her personal information smeared up on the Internet by the “brave heroes” (i.e. cowardly assholes) at AVfM:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/who-is-emma-claire-and-why-is-she-so-hateful/

cloudiah
8 years ago

In the comments, the “reasonable MRA” Dean Esmay also loses his shit:

In short: not worried about [violence against this woman]. No reason to be. She’s more likely to be struck by lightning than to be attacked by one of us. I’m more worried she’ll arrange to have one of us hurt or killed, or fake an injury on herself to get more attention. But if we don’t start naming and shaming the Stalinists, they get to keep doing what they’re doing under the cover of “I’m a girl, I’m helpless and harmless!” Fuck that and fuck her.

In which they show that they also have no idea what Stalinism was. Is there a Stalinist equivalent to Godwinning? Is it Esmaying?