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abortion creepy evil women markymark men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny MRA reactionary bullshit

We’ve Reached a New Low in Misogynistic Self-Righteousness

The kitties are not impressed with your argument, Mr. Anonymous
The kitties are not impressed with your argument, Mr. Anonymous

So our excitable old friend MarkyMark (not the actor-singer) just put up a not-very-original rant of the “women are worse than Hitler because of abortion” variety. More interesting than his post — which is frankly not very interesting — is this comment from an anonymous fellow that takes misogynistic self-righteousness to a whole new (low) level:

This is one of the reasons that I use women for my convenience. They can kill with impunity – nothing I do to them comes close to that level of evil. So they are for my pleasure, then I ditch them although I do come back sometimes. (They aren’t very bright which is what makes it workable.)

Yep: He’s not just a self-righteous prick; he’s self-righteous about being a prick.

I can only hope his own “evil” is mostly of the “slept with a woman and didn’t call her back” sort — or is just imaginary internet boasting —  because his “logic” could pretty much justify anything short of violent murder.

 

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Carleyblue
Carleyblue
7 years ago

I just don’t get women like judgybitch and driversuz (if suz is female?). I understand what drives some of our male MRA ‘friends’ here, but female MRAs just seem to constantly argue against their own interests. I understand wanting to be in a more traditional relationship, but why get so angry when other women don’t want what they want? A while ago I was looking at SunshineMary’s blog, since she sometimes comments here. She writes some of the most disgustingly misogynistic stuff I have ever seen from anyone, male or female. Women literally can’t do anything right with her. Is it some form of self-hate? Are they secretly unhappy and need someone to lash out at, and since they can’t or won’t get angry with their husbands or the other men in their lives they lash out at other women? Did they all have horrible relationships with their mothers? I know I should stop psychoanalysing people on the internet, but this kind of severe hate from women towards all other women is just so foreign to me. Also, I’ve noticed that most of these women write about their husbands like they’re some kind of god (and make them come across as complete assholes at the same time, by the way). It’s great to view one’s spouse in a positive light, but there is something really strange when you never criticise or get angry with them. It can’t be healthy- it just can’t.

Carleyblue
Carleyblue
7 years ago

And yes, I agree that the issues suz mentions above are worthy of consideration. But you can’t get around the fact that she and other women like her just seem to hate women.

driversuz
driversuz
7 years ago

And now I’ll head off to work, and come back to read a flurry of comments minimizing the horrendous treatment of half the population (thank Carleyblue) and attacking my personal character, attacks based on willfully distorted phrases that comprise a tiny fraction of my words.

sidestinkappleeye
7 years ago

When I had a miscarriage, the diagnosis that was on my hospital bill was treatment for a “spontaneous abortion”. I did not know doctors called it that. Probably not on topic but just something I found interesting.

driversuz
driversuz
7 years ago

Incidentally, Carleyblue, I don’t hate women. I hate how feminism has taught women to behave. And I note that your expression of your erroneous opinion of me (as “fact” no less) is clearly far more important to you than anything I have actually stated.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
7 years ago

It’s my 22th birthday, and I’d like to request more kitty videos. Otters and bulldog puppies will do in a pinch, though.

Carleyblue
Carleyblue
7 years ago

‘horrendous treatment of half the population’

Oh yes, genocide by TV commercials. As we speak, 5 men have died of TV commercial. And let’s not forget the ‘Boys are stupid’ T-shirt, which is brought up again and again… and again. Surely that shirt has caused more pain than World Wars I and II combined.

Incidentally, my former housemate had a mug with the ‘Boys are Stupid’ design on it. She did not consider herself a feminist though.

whataboutthemoonz
7 years ago

I think there seems to be some confusion between “this is misogyny, which by the way is shitty for men because they’re human beings” and “feminists have created a culture that hates men”.

Might want to hammer that one down.

cloudiah
7 years ago

The truly sad thing about MRAs is that even when they identify real problems, by misidentifying the cause they make sure that all their efforts will be ineffectual in addressing the problem. It’s like if you go to the doctor, and he correctly observes that you have a tumor in your abdomen, but then says it is caused by an excess of bile and prescribes a series of bleedings.

BTW, I’m on my tablet so can’t cut and paste very well, but JtO is having a complete meltdown on r/mr. And now I’ll head off to spend the day caring for my mother (who is recovering from surgery), and come back to read a flurry of comments mocking misogynists. You know, like it says in the tagline to this blog.

cloudiah
7 years ago

And happy birthday, wordsp1nner! Sorry I can’t post a video, but I expect someone will!

freitag235
freitag235
7 years ago

@driversuz,

An “honest discussion” with a “career academic?” One who assumes criticizing misandry makes me a defender of misogyny? I don’t suppose it has occurred to you that a person can disapprove of the small minority of men who hate women (most of whom must express themselves semi-anonymously for fear of retribution) while simultaneously disapproving of the large majority of women who hate men (openly, in every venue in our culture.) You don’t have much intimate contact with logic, do you?

Yes. Remarkably, “career academics” spend our lives in honest discussion. It’s kind of what we do.

I don’t “assume” you defend misogyny. You display it in every post. Why do you hate feminism so very much? You’re claiming to be a woman; would you be so kind as to explain how you came to your viewpoints?

The small minority of men who hate women are the reason for this blog. Misogyny. We mock it. We, or at least I, don’t assume that all men are like that. I’m not. Pecunium’s not. Aworldanonymous’ isn’t. Futrelle’s not. You’re right that it is a small minority. Which is why Futrelle selects interesting (and mock-worthy) bits to repost here.

The large majority of women who hate men? Would you, again, be so kind as to provide citations for this? “Divorce rape” isn’t a thing, you know. The “boys are dumb” t-shirts have been condemned here. Resources for battered women were largely created by women. Women have also stepped up to the plate in attempting to provide resources for all battered persons. We (men) kinda need to get moving on that. Selective service? Women are suing for the right to be in combat. Paltry sentences for female criminals? See mandatory sentencing guidelines. And, unless somebody institutes a Title IX type program for criminally-minded women, they just don’t seem to be as interested in violent crime as men. (Most women who die by murder are killed by men. Most men who die by murder are also killed by men. Gee, that seems odd, doesn’t it.) Patriarchy does harm women. It harms men too. Gosh. No wonder there’s opposition to it. And no, men should not be able to make decisions about women’s reproductive health. We don’t have the ladyparts and we do not/cannot understand the consequences of pregnancy. I don’t have time to address all of your points, but I’m sure that other Boobzers will.

And someone will interpret my last sentence as evidence that I believe women should have no reproductive rights at all.

Nice try, but no. That’s not what you said and it’s not what you meant. But my statement above stands. Women should not make decisions about circumcision. Men should not determine whether a woman should be forced to gestate against her will. That’s a decision to be made only by the woman in question.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

First birthday kitty…

freitag235
freitag235
7 years ago

Happy birthday wordsp1nner! Here’s a cute kitten for you:

freitag235
freitag235
7 years ago

and some fat baby bulldogs learning to walk (my favorite bulldog vid of all time):

Be sure to watch with the audio on for the full cuteness effect

freitag235
freitag235
7 years ago

balls! Here’s the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1W0E059dlw

Shiraz
Shiraz
7 years ago

Weak shit, Suz. Also without any citations.
Let’s see:
“~Any TV commercial with a male and a female.”
I told you, the dumb husband on sitcom arguement is horseshit. Negative women memes in pop culture are insurmountable. The evil bitch, the shrew wife, the sex bot, the femme fatale…I could go on and on.

All this shit:
”Must Arrest” policies, the implementation and subsequent quashing of “Dual Arrest” Policies.
~”Dear Colleague,” and the “preponderance of evidence” vs. “reasonable doubt.”
What the fuck?

“~Resources for battered men vs. resources for battered women.”
What about it? What are you trying to say? Men aren’t refused help at battery shelters. Groups got together and fought for women’s shelters and their availability for all women. Are you arguing that because shelters for women exist than that’s misandry?

“~Affirmative action.”
Affirmative action isn’t a law employers are compelled to follow. Though some employers choose to call themselves Equal Oppurtunity Employers.

“~Little girls wearing t-shirts that say, “Boys are dumb. Throw rocks at them.”
Ooooh, yeah, those t-shirts are really mean.

“~Court sponsored divorce rape.”
What’s court sponsored divorce rape? Do you mean a legal divorce equals a man’s metaphorical rape? What the hell are you trying to say?

“~Non-consensual genital mutilation.”
Um, you mean circumcision? I don’t care if parents choose to do that or not. It’s their decision. Do feminists insist parents circumcise their sons? I’ve never seen that either. Also, another false equivalency moment. A pre-teen girl having her clitoris cut off in a culture that thinks she’s inherently evil because she was born a woman isn’t the same thing as a standard circumcision performed by an actual doctor in a hospital who is thinking that doing so may prevent things like HPV infections and urinary tract infections.

“~Women and children are the real victims of war because they lose their loved ones.”
Feminists don’t claim that men don’t get hurt in wars….you’re going strawman again.

“~”Women Only” scholarships.”
What about them? Scholarships for football players are just for guys, aren’t they? So what?
Also, you’re willfully ignoring any historical context concerning women recieving higher education.

“~”Women Only” public events.”
Are you talking about Ladies Night? Oh my god, this is weak shit. That’s to herd women into clubs so guys will follow.

“~Media attention given to female rape victims vs. media attention given to male rape victims.”
Well, if more men came out and told their stories, media would cover them, I should know, I’m part of the media. Unfortunately, men are not encouraged to admit they’ve been victimized like this. That would be the patriarchy hurting men. And actually, women risk loosing a lot in admitting they’ve been raped.

“~Government funding for female-specific healthcare issues vs. funding for male-specific issues.”
~Selective service for men but not women.
~Low prosecution rates and paltry sentences for female criminals, including false rape accusers. Men go to jail, women go to counseling.”
Ok, you’re repeating yourself. What’s a male-specific issue? If they’re being neglected, why not lobby to fix that, suz? You can do that, can’t you? There’s no draft, suz, by the way. Women didn’t invent selective services, by the way. When a culture decides women are too weak to fight in a war, that’s the kind of shit that happens. Patriarchy hurting men.
False rape claims are bad, you want to legalize rape to fix that?

“~The presumption that patriarchy benefits men at a cost to women.”
Yes, except its not a presumption.

Why do you front as a woman and a mother, by the way?

whataboutthemoonz
7 years ago

~Any TV commercial with a male and a female.

Personally, I find that TV commercials appear to hate people, period. Not a culture of man-hate.

~VAWA +

This is about making it illegal to commit acts of violence against women. Not a culture of man-hate.

~”Must Arrest” policies, the implementation and subsequent quashing of “Dual Arrest” Policies.

I’m not familiar with the actual legal text for any such policies, but from what I understand the idea was that if a man beat his wife, the cops showed up, he talked them down and when they left he beat her harder. the mandatory arrest thing was to prevent this from happening.

This is one of those situations where an idea plays out different legally than it does socially.

~”Dear Colleague,” and the “preponderance of evidence” vs. “reasonable doubt.”

Would you care to explain this one?

~Resources for battered men vs. resources for battered women.

Resources for women were, at first, women. Women saw a problem and tried to fix it. If there is actually a need for male-friendly domestic violence shelters, then I support funding them 100%.

But that’s not a culture of man-hate.

~Affirmative action.

Not a culture of man-hate.

~Little girls wearing t-shirts that say, “Boys are dumb. Throw rocks at them.”

Little kids learn how to play out binary gender roles early on. If adults stopped pretending men were better than women or women were better than men, then kids wouldn’t do it either. For every girl saying “girls rule, boys drool”, there’s a boy saying “boys rule girls drool”.

Unless there’s an actual correlation between girls wearing this shirt and boys having rocks thrown at them, this is not evidence of a culture of man-hate.

~Court sponsored divorce rape.

Calling something rape that is clearly not rape is horribly offensive to people of all genders who experience sexual violence. It displays a stunning lack of sympathy.

And since we’re on the subject, at least half of the survivors I know are male. You’re being just as horrible to them as you are to the female survivors I know.

~Non-consensual genital mutilation.

This is terrible! It should not happen to anyone, ever.

~Women and children are the real victims of war because they lose their loved ones.

Women and children are the real victims of war because they die. Civilian casualty is almost always higher than military loss. (Obviously, adult men who die are also victims of war.)

For the record, though, I think war is terrible for everyone and should only be used as an absolute last resort. I don’t believe in the draft. I think that any responsible nation should make sure that those returning from active duty should have access to the health care – mental and physical – that they need.

This only works as a “culture of man-hate” if you actually believe women are sending men to war to die for kicks and giggles, which is obviously absurd.

~”Women Only” scholarships.

This was created to rectify a social problem. It’s another example of legal issues and social issues not working perfectly together.

~”Women Only” public events.

See above.

~Media attention given to female rape victims vs. media attention given to male rape victims.

The way media handles attention given to rape victims is abhorrent across the board. Not a culture of man-hate.

~Government funding for female-specific healthcare issues vs. funding for male-specific issues.

I would have to see some actual numbers on this before I feel comfortable commenting either way, but male-specific health care issues are often socially considered “normal health-care issues”.

~Selective service for men but not women.

As I said above, selective service is dumb. Get rid of it.

~Low prosecution rates and paltry sentences for female criminals, including false rape accusers. Men go to jail, women go to counseling.

Most of the criminal justice statistics I’ve read have been for male offenders, but I find it incredibly interesting that your idea of a female criminal is a “false rape accuser” and not “shoplifter” or “launderer” or “murderer” or any of the other crimes that women might actually commit.

~The presumption that patriarchy benefits men at a cost to women.

This is dependent upon how you define “benefit” in this context. In psychology, this would be referred to as “secondary gain”. It’s something that one might want – an immediate gratification of sorts – that actually contributes to an unhealthy personality.

For instance, the infantilization of women might be considered a secondary gain because it provides men with absolute control over the women in their lives, but it’s unhealthy because it assumes that men and women can’t communicate on a fundamentally human level, which is just insulting to everyone.

The “men are sexual and can’t control themselves” trope might give secondary gain to someone who has predatory sexual practices (in the form of social justification), but ultimately it treats men like animals instead of rational human beings, which is just insulting.

Looking back over the list, it seems we’re both really interested in ending male circumcision. How might we work toward that goal?

whataboutthemoonz
7 years ago

SO MUCH NINJA.

Shiraz
Shiraz
7 years ago

*shakes head*

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I love the new trolling technique.

Trolls : We scorn you! Witness our contempt! Your failure to impress us will destroy feminism!

Us : LOL

Shiraz
Shiraz
7 years ago

*shakes head again*

MKlein
MKlein
7 years ago

Happy (belated) birthday, wordsp1nner!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Also wow, wordsp1nner is so young! That makes me feel all big sisterly.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

My barometer of chucklefuckery blew its top at “divorce rape.” You’re a chucklefuck, Failsuz.

Amused
7 years ago

Three observations:

First, I am very amused by the way that Suz simultaneously trashes the academia and accuses us of a lack of “intellectual curiosity”. This, coming from a person who doesn’t even know what her son is studying because she doesn’t give a shit. Actuarial science, soil engineering, history of pottery, ancient Mandarin, who cares, amirite? It’s all the same thing, a piece of paper you get in order to get a job. How’s that for intellectual curiosity? Suz, you fare about as well as an intellectual, as a yak would fare as a ballerina.

Second, those sitcoms with stupid male characters. You know, when I first came to this country as an adolescent, the Immigration & Naturalization Service forgot to provide me with instructions on how to interpret those sitcoms. And so to my alien eye, it seemed like what those shows were saying was that it’s okay for guys to be ungainly, pathetic, incompetent slobs — they will still get a smart, attractive wife who will love them and look after them. I did find those shows sexist, but not the way you think — rather, the message that I saw there was that it’s okay for men to let their hair down, but women must be perfect at all times. My mother, who is very conservative and believes in traditional gender roles, interpreted them exactly the same way.

Third, Suz, your complaint about “preponderance of the evidence” is incoherent. Since this is my bread and butter, my impression is that you’ve heard those important-sounding words, and have been itching to use them in a sentence ever since, even a sentence that makes no sense whatsoever. Once again, you make the mistake of ignoring that other people’s experiences are different from yours. Some of us read legal literature and know what those terms mean, and some of us are actually lawyers. So as much as you believe that spouting legalese makes you seem intellectual, all you succeed in doing is make yourself look like an ass.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

“Any tv commercial with a male and a female”

These are the first two I found that met the criteria of being tv commercials featuring a man and a woman. Note the rampant man-hate.

Here’s the first one I found, although I’m not sure if it aired as a tv commercial. Note the rampant man-hate:

Meanwhile, I found this related video. Note the rampant man-hate:

Amused
7 years ago

@driversuz

“~Women and children are the real victims of war because they lose their loved ones.”

So complains a woman who grew up in a country that last saw hostilities on its own soil in 1865. (I’m not counting that Japanese invasion of Attu simply for reasons of scale.) Hey Suz? The world isn’t composed just of America. When wars are fought, they are fought somewhere — places where people of both genders and all ages reside. In places where fighting takes place, civilians don’t only lose loved ones, they actually get killed. In fact, in circumstances of “total war”, being a soldier provides you with better chances of survival than being a civilian. It’s mind-boggling that we even have to explain that to you. What are you, like, five?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Are the women in those commercials begging for the attention of our “intellectually curious” friend’s super macho son? If not, it’s man-hate!

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Court sponsored divorce rape.

FUCK YOU, you dim, evil bint. That you would conflate divorce court with rape shows exactly what your black little soul is all about. The rest of your chatter is meaningless.

FUCK YOU.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I think if Suz ever found herself in a genuinely challenging or dangerous situation she’d curl up in the fetal position and cry. In a war zone? She’d be about as much use as an ice-cream maker in a snowstorm.

Amused
7 years ago

@CassandraSays: I suspect race might be at play in her argument as well. Like, when wars kill brown people, or Muslins, it’s not real casualties.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I had that thought too, actually. I was waiting for the words “collateral damage”.

Shiraz
Shiraz
7 years ago

I hate when trolls pretend to be women. I’m not sure if they like the idea of women arguing with each other, ’cause weeee, catfight! Or if they’re trying prove some women don’t dig equality.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Shoraz: why do you think Suzfail pretending to be a woman? What did I miss?

Whatever they are, they’re ignorant and dull.

I don’t get FeMRAs. I just can;t imagine having that level of self-loathing.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

^Shiraz. Sorry about that.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I kind of hope it is a dude pretending to be a woman, because if the stuff about the son was written by a mother about her kid then my creep radar would be screeching like a fire alarm.

Shiraz
Shiraz
7 years ago

No worries, hellkell.
Why do I think suz is a man? Suz never uses anecdotes to sound superior. There’s no, “Well, back when I was a girl,” or “I gave birth, and as a mother I believe that…” or even, “Well, I never experienced that kind of harassment in my life!”
Suz talks about women like they’re aliens, and his arguements are generic MRA whines and grunts. The whole equality means inequality for men paranoia makes me think it’s just another dudebro.
And yes Cassandra, the alleged son/mother relationship reads creepy. I think he imagines himself as the son, while he plays the role of the ideal mother.

Dvärghundspossen
7 years ago

@Cassandra:

Nobody gets to use my body to sustain themselves without my permission. If you think that they do in this specific situation, you’re not considering me a person in the same way you are a person, so unless you’re also arguing that men must be required to, say, give bone marrow or kidney transplants any time there’s someone who’s a match who needs them, the “right not to be killed” argument is assuming that the rights of the fetus outweigh those of the woman. Which is elevating the value of the life of the fetus above that of the woman.

Yes, I know, and that’s a terribly good counter argument against people who claim that women should be forced to be pregnant. If I remember correctly Judgy Bitch was the first to point this out and I was the one who said that’s originally from Thomson’s “a defense of abortion”.

But if someone says “abortion is wrong because it’s killing, the right to life is more important than other rights” etc, you can’t convince anyone not already agreeing with you that this person is wrong by just going WOMEN ARE PERSONS. To someone who isn’t already a convinced pro-choicer that’s gonna come out as just changing the question.

When I was a teen I thought that maybe abortion is morally wrong because maybe it’s killing someone else. I wasn’t sure one way or the other, and therefore had a terrible time for a while when I thought I was pregnant (turned out I wasn’t). I would have soaked up at the time if someone had pointed out that a) you’re not obligated to keep someone else alive at a great cost to yourself, or even more importantly (for me, with the moral beliefs I had at the time) b) fetuses at an early stage may have a beating heart and lots of other organs, but not a properly functioning brain yet, and the brain is the morally relevant part. But someone merely going “YOU’RE A WOMAN AND THEREFORE A PERSON” wouldn’t have made a bit of a difference, because that’s not what I doubted.

I have encountered, afterwards, people who thought I was a complete idiot for not realising the absolute obviousness of the moral rightness of abortion, and that pisses me off, because I wasn’t being an idiot. And I know you’re not arguing against some doubting teenage girl here, but primarily against misogynistic politicians and anti-choicers who are simultaneously against birth control, but still, it does no one a favour to pretend like the complete and utter rightness of abortion is so obvious that you can sum it up with “women are persons”.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

But if someone says “abortion is wrong because it’s killing, the right to life is more important than other rights” etc, you can’t convince anyone not already agreeing with you that this person is wrong by just going WOMEN ARE PERSONS.

Honestly I think there are two things you’re overlooking here. 1. Most people who call themselves pro-life aren’t actually focused on the saving babies part at all (you can tell this by how they frame their arguments, as well as by their lack of interest in other child welfare issues). 2. For a lot of people who identify as pro-life, there is no way to reason them out of that position.

I’d be a lot more optimistic about the possibility of reasoning people out of that position if I hadn’t seen it tried so many times before. For the ones who are actually motivated by wanting to save “babies”, the best way to persuade them to change their focus is to point out that pro-life policies don’t actually lower abortion rates, at all. For the ones for whom it’s really all about sex and controlling women’s sex lives, or the ones who see women as sort of holy incubators, there is no way to talk them out of that position other than convincing them that women are people. And good luck with that.

Dvärghundspossen
7 years ago

@Amused:

Second, those sitcoms with stupid male characters. You know, when I first came to this country as an adolescent, the Immigration & Naturalization Service forgot to provide me with instructions on how to interpret those sitcoms. And so to my alien eye, it seemed like what those shows were saying was that it’s okay for guys to be ungainly, pathetic, incompetent slobs — they will still get a smart, attractive wife who will love them and look after them. I did find those shows sexist, but not the way you think — rather, the message that I saw there was that it’s okay for men to let their hair down, but women must be perfect at all times. My mother, who is very conservative and believes in traditional gender roles, interpreted them exactly the same way.

This. So. Much.

I just saw “Scott Pilgrim vs the world”, and I thought it was hilarious and enjoyed it very much. Still, it’s the tired old “mediocre guy gets hot girl” story. I read this feminist internet site where a girl complained about this, and was immediately shot down by people who went a) attractiveness is subjective and b) surface isn’t everything. Eh, right. Still, we can all agree that there is such a thing as “Hollywood attractive”. Scott isn’t, all the girls he dates are. Plus, he doesn’t display any particular intelligence or charm or any other compensating quality either. All girls just fall for him anyway. And, most importantly, it’s not just this movie. It’s a pattern we see OVER AND OVER AND OVER again in movies and TV shows – and I think it’s really weird to interpret the message as “women are beautiful and intelligent while men are stupid slobs, so women are better than men”.

mxe354
7 years ago

“In places where fighting takes place, civilians don’t only lose loved ones, they actually get killed.”

Not to mention raped, tortured, and sometimes even enslaved.

Dvärghundspossen
7 years ago

@Cassandra:

Honestly I think there are two things you’re overlooking here. 1. Most people who call themselves pro-life aren’t actually focused on the saving babies part at all (you can tell this by how they frame their arguments, as well as by their lack of interest in other child welfare issues). 2. For a lot of people who identify as pro-life, there is no way to reason them out of that position.

I’d be a lot more optimistic about the possibility of reasoning people out of that position if I hadn’t seen it tried so many times before. For the ones who are actually motivated by wanting to save “babies”, the best way to persuade them to change their focus is to point out that pro-life policies don’t actually lower abortion rates, at all. For the ones for whom it’s really all about sex and controlling women’s sex lives, or the ones who see women as sort of holy incubators, there is no way to talk them out of that position other than convincing them that women are people. And good luck with that.

I think you’re completely right about most convinced anti-abortionists (as we’ve already covered, if they were really super-concerned about not killing fetuses they’d be pro all kinds of policies they’re not actually pro). But since there are people who waver on the issue and are insecure, it’s probably still good to make good comprehensive arguments for the cause in case any of these are listening/reading.

Like, if you actually point out the kidney transplant analogy, you might make some listeners think, and someone who thought an anti-abortionist had a point when he merely went “we gotta save babies” might change their mind if he either starts evading your kidney transplant analogy or bite the bullet and goes “we should totally force people to donate kidneys!”.

I’ve had some anti-abortion students who do the bullet biting, and I sort of respect them for being consistent, but I also think they thereby scare people away from their position, which is a good thing.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Also I think we may have a miscommunication as far as goals here. My goal is not to persuade anyone who thinks abortion is bad to have an abortion. If our hypothetical teenage girl decides that she isn’t OK with abortion and doesn’t want to have one, that’s her decision to make. What I’m not OK with is for that teenage girl not to have access to good medical information about fetal development, or for pro-life people to be allowed to manipulate her by either guilt-tripping her into thinking that as a woman her life is supposed to center around self-sacrifice so of course abortion is out of the question, or that an 8 week old fetus is like a toddler that loves her dearly and will experience emotional trauma as the result of being aborted, and also she herself will be emotionally scarred for life.

Give young women access to all the medical data available, let them know that the adults around them will support them in whatever decision they think is best for them, and then let them decide for themselves. I don’t want any outside group influencing that decision one way or the other.

Bee
Bee
7 years ago

I’m seeing a lot of confusion about what Driversuz meant by referencing the Dear Colleague Letter and preponderance of evidence. I think I can clear up what she meant.

In 2011, Russlynn Ali published a Dear Colleague Letter providing guidance about US universities’ obligations to protect students from sexual assault. This letter included standards for grievance procedures, one of which was clarifying whether schools should use a preponderance of evidence standard or reasonable doubt standard. the DCL said that schools should use the lower preponderance of evidence standard, and MRAs have been whining about how unfair it is ever since.

For more information about how fucking unfair rapists have it in university nowadays, I refer you to recent announcements from sexual assault victims who had to leave Amherst and Northwest Universities because of the way they were treated by the administration as a direct result of their rapes. Boo fucking hoo.

Dvärghundspossen
7 years ago

@Cassandra: Maybe I read in stuff in your writings that weren’t there, and therefore I started sounding condescending against you, I’m sorry. It’s just that because of my personal experience I’m a bit edgy when people sound as if you have to be downright stupid not to realise that abortion is okay. Although I guess you weren’t really saying that, only that it obviously should be legal. Sorry.

I also think that it’s important that people make up their own minds when it’s their own pregnancy. (I think it sucks that, here in Sweden, pregnant women/girls don’t really have the option to adopt the baby away when it’s born, although I bet this would be the preferable option for many people. In Sweden, it’s abort or keep.)

Still, it’s good if people who might consider abortion get, not just accurate medical information, but also the kind of philosophical arguments that have come up in this thread – like, what reasons are there to suppose heart beats are morally relevant, what kind of obligation could one have to keep another alive? When you’ve heard them, you can then make up your own mind about them, just like you do with empirical medical information.

Not long ago a male friend told me that a female friend of his (whom I’ve never met or know who she is) was pregnant, and sort of wanted to have an abortion, but worried that it was morally wrong. She had told him this because she wanted his perspective, and he didn’t know what to say, since he thought abortion is obviously completely unproblematic, but he didn’t know how to put this to her since she was so worried, so he dumped it on me. I said that I thought the best thing to do was to acknowledge that it’s not strange to think abortion might be wrong, but then present philosophical/medical reasons why HE doesn’t think so. And then, obviously, at the end of the day, it’s up to her, and if she decides to keep it that’s perfectly fine. But it might be good in that situation to hear proper reasons for abortion being right. And you never know how many people in that situation, or people who might eventually end up in that situation, might be reading.

whataboutthemoonz
7 years ago

So Bee, from what you’ve explained it seems to me that the issue MRAs have is that someone argued Universities should believe students who report sexual assaults. Am I understanding this right?

(From the three minutes I’ve spent on Wikipedia, it seems like the options are [reasonable doubt] “DNA evidence and it’s on video and five hundred witnesses testify” or preponderance of evidence] “person reports a crime, there’s enough evidence to suggest that it most likely happened”; the latter is obviously more ideal for survivors whereas MRAs, naturally, prefer the former.)

I am not a lawyer.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

No worries. I’m curious about why adoption isn’t an option in Sweden, though. I assume adoption isn’t totally illegal, so why isn’t it an option for someone who’s pregnant and trying to figure out what to do?

BTW if I’m sounding very uncompromising in this thread it’s because we have people like Bitchy and Suz here. making the usual disingenous arguments. When it comes to counselling individuals about what their options are I’m all for laying out every single possibility as compassionately as possible, and not ever telling them that their feelings are wrong. When it comes to a theoretical discussion with a bunch of sexist dipshits who want to undermine women’s ability to control their own lives, though, I’m not going to compromise at all precisely because of the people reading along who might not be sure what they think. I don’t want those people feeling like they have to acknowledge pro-life arguments as valid or reasonable if they don’t want to.

(Again, this is the big sisterly tendencies coming out. I’m incredibly grateful that I wasn’t exposed to pro-life propaganda until I was already an adult and not as easy to manipulate, and I feel a strong need to protect young girls from the idea that they’re nothing but incubators.)

Bee
Bee
7 years ago

Moonz, yeah, that’s pretty much it. I should mention, I guess, that Russlynn Ali was the Assistant Secretary of Education, so the DCL has the force of law. And I was wrong about the burden of proof that some schools had been using before the DCL — I guess it was clear and convincing not reasonable doubt, but either way, it was a higher standard that pretty much meant that there needed to be a video and 500 witnesses and basically meant that most student rapists got to stay on campus while their victims were forced to leave (or stay on campus with the person who had raped them, but who wants to do that?).

The DCL also said things like: Hey universities, if a student comes to you and says that they were raped, don’t put it on them to hash things out privately with the person who raped them. Have an actual clear, fair grievance procedure. So yeah, reaaaaaaally controversial and terribly mean to the poor rapists who totally don’t mean anything by raping people!

whataboutthemoonz
7 years ago

(or stay on campus with the person who had raped them, but who wants to do that?)

As a person who spent a year living in a dormitory with her rapist, I am totally okay with kicking rapists off campus.

hash things out privately with the person who raped them

Some places actually expect survivors to do that, don’t they? 🙁

freitag235
freitag235
7 years ago

“…hash things out privately with the person who raped them”

Shit. Why not just go ahead and demand that they be forced to marry the rapist?

Sick fucks.