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a voice for men antifeminism armageddon evil women grandiosity men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA oppressed men paul elam playing the victim princesses

Save the Dude Planet! Or, Paul Elam Yells at the Ladies for Buying Lady Crap

Paul Elam, head misogynist at A Voice for Men, is mad at the ladies again, his wrath provoked this time by an overheard conversation in a local coffeeshop between two women talking about recycling, and how the world would be a greener place if women were in charge.

Elam seems to take deep personal offense at any suggestion that men aren’t the absolute best at every single fucking thing, so he quickly scurried off to his computer to bash out a 1500-word screed that began with him insulting the women as bobbleheaded “latte lappers who were more likely than not completely clueless about how a single thing on the planet with a moving part works,” moved into high gear with some not altogether wrong (if rather trite and woman-blamey) critiques of the diamond and fur industries, and wound up with a stern warning that WOMEN ARE DESTROY9ING THE EARTH WITH ALL THEIR SPENDY SPENDING!!1!!!

So let’s just skip ahead to that part, shall we?

Take it away, Paul:

The thing that drives the bulk of pollution, wars, white collar criminality, cruelty to animals, human slavery and the like is consumerism. Consumerism, especially the market of unnecessary, embarrassingly vain and useless goods, is a woman’s world. It is primarily the consumption of fashion, via cosmetics, plastic surgery, excessive clothing, jewelry and other vanity items. Women drive a world of pain and damage to the planet. And men, to their shame, do the heavy lifting to get it done.

Ah, damn you ladies! God damn you all to hell!

The so-called Planet of the Apes was Earth all along!

Oh, wait. Sorry. SPOILER ALERT.

But Paul, don’t men buy a lot of expensive useless crap, too?

I mean, I just did about a minute of Googling and found a goddamn fishing rod that’ll set you back $4600.

I cannot think of a single item consumed by men en masse, with high social acceptance, that does not also have utilitarian value. e.g. leather items come from food source animals.

Oh, I see. You can use a $4600 fishing rod to catch $4600 fish. My bad.

Essentially it is not that much different from Native Americans using buffalo hide as well as the meat.

Yeah, he really did just say that.

And many of the things men do consume that might appear on the surface to be excessive are things that women size up and measure them  by in the process of sexual selection.

Ah, and these men are utterly helpless before these greedy, earth-destroying women and their evil feminine allure.

Most money is still earned by men.

This is true. In part because of that whole wage gap thing you MRAs don’t believe in.

Most money is actually spent by and on women, mostly on consequence-ridden products whose only use is to bolster their egos. That is about as green as a fucking oil spill.

The sex driving the world’s ridiculous over consumption, and therefore decimation of everything, is not men. In fact, women’s level of over consumption is so outrageous that they cannot even maintain it with their own resources. It takes both sexes to feed the excessive appetite of the one.

Ah, but that’s not quite true. Or really true at all. For one thing, while women may spend more than men, that’s in part because women still tend to do more of the shopping for things like, you know, groceries. They’re not spending all this money on themselves.

And women may not really be spending as much as you think. It’s often said that women are responsible for about 80% of consumer spending. But if you ever start trying to track down the source of that oft-quoted statistic, as I did while writing this post, you’ll discover that … there really doesn’t seem to be one. It’s one of these things that’s assumed to be true simply because it’s repeated so often – especially by people claiming to know how to market to women. The Wall Street Journal’s Carl Bialik looked into this 80% claim last year and found that

In addition to having murky origins, the number appears to be wrong. Several recent surveys suggest that men have nearly equal say on spending, and that when men and women live together, both participate in spending decisions. In a survey conducted last year of nearly 4,000 Americans 16 and older by Futures Co., a London consulting firm, just 37% of women said they have primary responsibility for shopping decisions in their household, while 85% said they have primary or shared responsibility. The respective figures for men were similar: 31% and 84%.

Let’s return from the land of reality to plunge again into the tempestuous torrent of Paul Elam’s testosterone tantrum. (See! I can write as crappily as Paul Elam if I really try!)

If we wanted to save the environment, be less cruel to animals, have less wars, less slavery and less forced labor of children then the best first step we can take is to start raising girls to get over their vanity and their entitlement. We would also do well to teach our boys to assist in the process.

Elam followed up this soul-stirring call to SAVE TEH PLANET with a post castigating male truck drivers for being too nice to lady truck drivers. No, really.

If you’re interested in learning more about saving our green planet, and even if you’re not, I suggest you take a look at the trailer for the excellent if unclassifiable Korean film called, naturally, Save the Green Planet.

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CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Codeine is one of the few pharma drugs that I resent the restrictions on, since it’s the only thing that makes any sort of dent when I get a migraine. It at least takes the pain down to a level where I don’t feel like puking any more.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Gah, migraines. 🙁

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Strewth, it’s 1.30 am here. I guess I’d better go to bed! Niters all.

sidestinkappleeye
8 years ago

Not all women have a choice whether to work or stay at home.

sidestinkappleeye
8 years ago

working class women—invisible

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
8 years ago

working class women—invisible

Always have been; always will be.

The only time men like chuckeedee notice women working is when the women have jobs and/or schedules they think they’d like for themselves. One of my best guy friends is currently a stay-at-home father. He and his totally rockin’ wife are both pretty happy and their baby is friggin’ adorable.

But, you know, he’s not an asshole and that’s why it’s worked out so well.

eline
eline
8 years ago

@ Kitteh

Ah ok. I guess the private insurance is selective against pre-existing conditions though? Or do you have a law to ban that? Here we only got the one system which is 100% privatised insurers and providers. But their rates, policies and quality is government controlled and they get subsidies. So everyone pays at least X amount and then some extra, which I guess equals as the private side in other countries. It’s very different from Finland, where we (well not me anymore) have system like Medicare and private pre-selective insurers. But they can and will deny psych help if you had anything of the like before taking insurance. And then you depend on the state care, which usually covers everything if you get strong enough need. But that can be difficult to determine at times…

Ah interesting topic all over. Nighters! Or morning, to keep near future in mind.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The whole issue of pre-existing conditions and medical insurance makes me so angry. Basically, the people who run the system that’s supposed to treat sick people have decided that they’re only going to treat people who are healthy, and that people who’re sick should be excluded from treatment. How does everyone not immediately see the problem with this?

sthlivingincolor
8 years ago

The whole idea of health insurance on a for-profit basis just doesn’t make any sense. The way you make money as a health insurance company is by NOT PAYING FOR CARE. How is that in anybody’s interest but the company’s? My state (Washington) passed a law that insurance companies that cover prescriptions have to cover non-generics as well as generics (please note there’s no generic for my asthma inhaler and last time I got it I paid $118). My insurance company, since they’re SO concerned about my health, responded by changing their policies: now they no longer cover ANY prescriptions. And my rates are going up by $60 a month in January on my shitty $2500-deductible plan.

I swear, my medical issues of the last few years have totally radicalized me on this issue. I cannot wait for universal health care. I hope I fucking live to see it (I won’t if the insurance companies have anything to say about it).

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Agreed. Healthcare on a for-profit basis for very rich people works as a concept (if you put aside the ethical aspects of that), but the idea that healthcare for the bulk of the population can effectively run on an insurance model is ridiculous.

pecunium
8 years ago

Kitteh’s: Codiene is a complicated drug in the us. By itself it’s a Schedule II narcotic, and highly controlled. It requires a prescription. It’s OTC in Canada (8mg in aspirin/acetmenophen/ibuprofen). That means, actually, that one can legally buy it in Canada (or the UK) and get in trouble coming home (though the usual response is to just confiscate it, they could, in theory, arrest you).

When compounded with another drug (mild analgesic) it is on different schedules III-V, and as such individual states can allow it to be sold OTC, with various levels of restriction. It cannot be sold “on the counter”, even in those locales. A form has to be signed, as well as the seller making a register entry to record the removal from stock.

A standard dose in the US is 25mg, for the prescribed medication, though most prescriptions I’ve seen call for, 1-2 tablets by mouth ever 4-6 hours, as needed for pain

The common, “Tylenol-3” which people refer to in the states is 300mg acetmenophen, 30mg codeine, and 30mg caffeine. It comes in two lower strength dosages, 8, and 15mg codeine: which have half the caffeine.

pecunium
8 years ago

Chickadee: Men who do not provide are invisible.

Yep, no one ever heard of Thomas Beckett. Nor of a single Pope. Issac Newton… completely unheard of. Alan Turing, ignored and forgotten.

All because they never married.

A stay-at-home dad is about as marketable to women as a truckload of beachsand is to an Arab.

My personal experience is that when I was an au pair it was really attractive to women (I’ve done it twice for money, and intermittently when living with much junior [18+ years] siblings). If I am out with a babe in arms, women come to talk to me. When they find out it’s not my child, they flirt with me (sometimes even hit on me directly). When they find out I’ve been an au pair the same thing happens.

Maybe I’m just some sort of Johnny Depp, and they need an excuse to approach me, but I doubt it. I think they find it sexy.

inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

Men who do not provide are invisible.

!

Why did nobody tell me this???

I have to stop providing immediately and claim my badass superpower.

ostara321
ostara321
8 years ago

I’m really not at all sure how reinforcing restrictive gender roles on men and women is supposed to cut back on overuse of fossil fuels, increase recycling and reduce waste, and save the planet in general, but whatever, I’m not even going to touch the “man hunter, woman cooker” garbage because it’s demonstrably stupid.

But I will say that I can think of a HUGELY wasteful industry that is largely consumed by men, is largely run by men and has some pretty negative outcomes on the general culture.

Sports. I live in a very football-centric (American football) city and know that there is a TON of energy and resources poured into the building and maintenance and upkeep of football stadiums. Just all the power alone that’s taken to keep the field in decent shape is a huge drain on resources, but then there’s also all the energy used for the fans. Lights, the bathrooms, the vendors that need power to be able to cook and sell their food stuffs. Then there’s also all the waste that comes from the packaging of the products. Everything from the wrapper on the hot dogs to the beer bottles to the tags and shopping bags and packaging on all the memorabilia that also takes a shit ton of energy and creates a shit ton of waste to make, package, ship and sell.

That’s not even including either all the energy that’s used up by fans driving to the games, tailgating at the games, fans at home watching from their TVs and the waste from all the prepackaged food that’s most commonly cooked for football parties. Or including the fantasy football leagues energy is wasted on.

Then there’s the negative cultural aspects. Because professional sports are such a huge money maker, they’re hugely prevalent in western culture and, at least in America, literally massive amounts of money, time and energy goes into sports programs at schools. Then the waste starts all over again. Energy into building. Energy into maintaining. Energy into the games with lights and refreshments. Energy into getting the teams to the games. There are plenty of schools that will build a new football stadium before building a new computer lab if the team is doing good. Sports are cared about more than academia in a lot of American culture.

Then there’s the sporting culture itself. At least in a lot of predominantly male-oriented sports, the sports are actually physically quite dangerous, and have a long and very sad history (and current culture) of bullying and violence, hospitalization, and sometimes even death. The bullying is overlooked, tolerated, sometimes even encouraged by coaches and educators alike who often either view the rampant bullying deeply entrenched in many male sports teams as “just a part of the game” or even a necessary team building tactic.This is how even more serious transgressions (like what happened at Penn State) are allowed to occur and are allowed to continue to occur.

None of this is to say that sports are the root of all evil and waste and bullying, or even that there aren’t a lot of positives in athletics (keeps people fit, teaches kids team building and strategy, etc) but seriously, if the dudes carrying on about ladies with their furs (cause all ladies can afford to buy and would totally want to buy a dead fox to wear around their necks, amirite?) and their SUVs are in any way shape or form regular consumers of sporting products (whether it’s box seats at the stadium or buying a new jersey or just tuning into the game every week without fail) they are kidding themselves if they seriously believe that their negative impact on the planet is so very very virtuously low in comparison.

pecunium
8 years ago

Cassandra: It doesn’t even work as a model for rich people.

So long as stockholder have the legal right to maximal return on investment (which they do), the for profit insurance company has to keep making a high rate of return. They can’t do that and provide healthcare to all the policy holders.

So they have to strip people from the rolls, one way or another, on a steady basis. Having managed to lose most of the non-healthy already they have had to increase policy costs. Not to stay in business, per se, but because if the profits fall, they will be out of business.

Even at that the ungodly rich can’t afford to pay, out of pocket, for some things (cancer springs immediately to mind). One of the suppositions for Romney’s oddly structured non-retirement from Bain was that Ann Romney had just been diagnosed with MS, and the costs of treating it can be really high. If he stayed on the books at Bain he got to keep the really good healthcare (much better than the ACA he wanted to get rid of, “on day one” of his presidency).

And, of course, he wasn’t paying for it. The investors at Bain were. A little bit of income redistribution he doesn’t have any problem with.

But, eventually, to meet the “projections” the cost of a policy will have to be damn near what the cost of getting an expensive disease would be.

At which point why bother?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Anecdata – Whenever I see a man showing affection to a child it makes him more attractive to me than he would otherwise have been. The idea that seeing that would put a woman off a man who she might otherwise have been interested in is so weird. What’s not to like about seeing someone demonstrate kindness and the ability to nurture?

pecunium
8 years ago

I think that’s why the Heritage Foundation (a right-wing think tank) proposed what became “Obamacare”, back in the 1990s. They saw the writing on the wall, and making everyone pay into the program would keep the insurers afloat (it is, after all, a form of tax subsidy to make everyone pay… I say subsidy because the money never enters the General Fund, and the benefits of scale don’t accrue. If Medicare could negotiate drug prices, drug prices would fall. Drug companies might also see an increase in profits… think Laffer Curve).

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ pecunium

I didn’t mean insurance for rich people, I meant that they could in theory just outright purchase medical services on a case by case basis. The insurance model just doesn’t fit healthcare as an industry at all, regardless of who the customers are.

eline
eline
8 years ago

@Cassandra

Tell me about it. I had a youth insurance policy that expired when I turned 22. My parents bought into it in the 80’s as it seemed reasonable. Only they didn’t predict that I would be the child with the chronic illness from the age of five onwards. It basically excluded me from all useful private health insurance in Finland for all my adult life. I’ve thanked my lucky stars (if I believed in them, that is) that I was born in a country where the private sector is just for vanity reasons like wanting to have your minor operation in a fancy hospital, and all the heavy lifting happens in the public sector and publically funded university hospitals. In the US I’m pretty sure I would not have qualified for taxfunded health care thanks to the income of my parents, nor for any new insurances. And with my health history I would have been dead at least twice so far after the insurance expired, without miraculous funds that I also couldn’t have made thanks to being ill so much.

I really like the Dutch system, and I think it beats the Finnish system although it could use some streamlining such as getting the altmed out and reducing some overlapping services. I also think the model would fit the US, as it’s 100% private. Base insurance is mandatory although you CAN opt out by paying a fine every year, and paying your own expenses. Pre-selection is forbidden and the government sets price guidelines and the minimum services that the companies must cover in the basis package. Healthcare providers are nonprofit, though I think insurers are not. Ideally the system functions solely on the insurance fees paid and competition between insurers, though government subsidises if needed. You decide what you pay in addition to the base cost depending what extra you want, but everything necessary is covered. Birth control too, if you like. I do pay more now than I did in Finland, as I pay monthly instead of the little own risk fees every time you see a doctor or get prescription meds, but the basis insurance per year costs about the same as what you have to pay out of pocket in Finland until the yearly cap is reached, after which everything is paid from taxes. That used to be 650€ for medicines and 650€ for appointments/hospital stays etc before I moved out, probably a bit more now. This year in Holland I paid 135€/month plus own risk 150€ (plus the awful physio bills 750€…), base insurance being 99€ of that 135€. With higher own risk I think you can pay as little as 70€/month. 2013 I will pay 167€/month and own risk 350€ (not all services fall under own risk), which is higher now thanks to me being very ill the past year. But now I upgraded with dental care up to 250€, physiotherapy 36 sessions, hormonal birth control up to 200€, travel vaccinations, glasses/contacts up to 250€, psychologist’s appointments covered fully should I need some, IVF, sterilisations and a whole lot of other things covered if not fully then for the most part. Oh, and of course my 1000€ worth of magic water. And that’s the extras; prescription meds, doc’s appointments, hospital stays, examinations, MRI’s and everything necessary is covered 100%.

I totally agree, for-profitness of health care is evil and the core reason why in the US you don’t get as much out of your health care system as we do. It should be enough that costs are met and salaries paid. Making money, especially large sums, out of someone else’s misery is evil. The Dutch regulation of insurers prevents the kind of insanity that runs amok in the US, and yet keeps the system running quite smoothly.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

If any country is going to have a for-profit system providing the bulk of healthcare I think the government has to make it illegal for providers to screen people out for preexisting conditions. The providers won’t like it, but who cares? If you’re not willing to treat sick people, don’t get into the healthcare business.

kysokisaen
8 years ago

Carbon footprint by nation, total & per capita (2007)

Cotton is a resource sucking bastard but it could be worse: in America, you probably don’t have to worry about buying clothing made by cotton picked by schoolchildren who are bused to the fields to help with the harvest. On the bright side, Uzbekistan has an enviable carbon footprint.

Bamboo? Probably rayon. Lets make that ‘certainly’ if it feels good to wear and you didn’t pay out the ass for it.

Organic at Walmart? I have my suspicions.

It is extremely difficult to be an ethical consumer, and anyone who tries has to accept that they absolutely won’t be batting a thousand. Anyone who wants to turn it into a holier-than-thou purity olympic event can be safely dismissed. My personal crusades are diamonds (that’s easy enough), chocolate (child slaves), local meat, and companies that are known to use child sweatshop labor. But I can’t judge other people for having a different priority list.

princessbonbon
8 years ago

Making money, especially large sums, out of someone else’s misery is evil.

It is hard to change this when you have companies that specifically create misery to make profit.

Historophilia
Historophilia
8 years ago

Chuckeedee completely missed the point of David’s argument there…

Like spectacularly, reading that otherwise relatively coherent post I could just hear this whooshing noise as it went straight over his head and he tried earnestly to refute an argument that had never been put to him. Or that has been made by anyone here.

Wetherby
Wetherby
8 years ago

Anecdata – Whenever I see a man showing affection to a child it makes him more attractive to me than he would otherwise have been. The idea that seeing that would put a woman off a man who she might otherwise have been interested in is so weird. What’s not to like about seeing someone demonstrate kindness and the ability to nurture?

I can attest to this from the other side: when taking my baby son out in his buggy, I found I’d often strike up casual conversations with women, which they’d normally initiate. But I assumed that part of the appeal, besides the nurturing thing, is the fact that I didn’t pose any kind of threat, either in terms of hitting them or indeed hitting on them.

pecunium
8 years ago

Cassandra: I didn’t mean insurance for rich people, I meant that they could in theory just outright purchase medical services on a case by case basis. The insurance model just doesn’t fit healthcare as an industry at all, regardless of who the customers are.

It’s a nice theory but I don’t think, because of the models we have, it works.

I had a kidney stone some years ago. The ER visit was 8,000USD. I was told that, had I had insurance, it would have been a charge (to the insurer) of $1,500. The price I had to pay was as high as it was so the insurers could get a “discount”.

Which means the nominal charge for something like a coronary bypass (listed as about 50,000 to an insurer) is going to be what…? If that rate is constant it’s something like $400,000.

That’s one procedure, not the follow up, etc. The other thing is that the infrastructure depends on the insurance companies. No steady state use of the facilities and they will go away, which will increase the price in the places which do have them.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I didn’t say it was a good idea, only that it was a less ridiculous idea than having healthcare for the bulk of the population covered via insurance.

princessbonbon
8 years ago

A stay-at-home dad is about as marketable to women as a truckload of beachsand is to an Arab.

Since Saudi Arabia has a beach resort town I would think that beach sand is kind of important.

And *I* could use a stay at home husband. Do you know of one who is not a misogynistic jackass like you?

inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

I’ve always wanted to be a stay-at-home husband/writer. To that end, I love shopping, decorating, cooking, and baking. I’m also good at cleaning and yardwork, and I can do basic repairs. I am a nest-building fiend.

And sorry to burst your bubble, MRAs, but experience shows that while I will probably not ever be a “stay-at-home” husband (in this economy?), nesting skills ARE actually quite attractive to women.

katz
8 years ago

Certainly it does give an idea of consumption but seriously, for people stuck in their situations, people who simply don’t and can’t get the money to change, it’s just damn depressing to get the finger-wagging message.

Yeah, I got the impression that the test was more intended to nag people into better habits rather than to actually measure their consumption. Asking how you use your AC or dishwasher but not asking if you have AC or a dishwasher.

We keep trying to get solar panels, but our energy consumption is so low that contractors always tell us it’s not worth it.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

Someone pointed out that it matters where your electricity comes from. On Kysokisaen’s list, Iceland is really far down on the “per capita” list, despite being a rich country, where they also presumably import a hell of a lot of goods. I guess the reason is that they basically get all their electricity and heating from their vulcanos.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

Sorry, not that far down, Sweden and many other European countries seem to be a bit smaller… whatever, considering how much they must import to Iceland it still shows the impact of where your electricity comes from.

Polliwog
8 years ago

Anecdata – Whenever I see a man showing affection to a child it makes him more attractive to me than he would otherwise have been. The idea that seeing that would put a woman off a man who she might otherwise have been interested in is so weird. What’s not to like about seeing someone demonstrate kindness and the ability to nurture?

Ditto. And the other skills involved in homemaking are pretty attractive, too. I have yet to encounter a woman who has ever, ever had the thought, “Ew, this guy can cook tasty meals and clean up his own shit? Ugh, I HATE delicious food and a clean living space!”

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

I’ve had some really good results from homeopathic remedies. But, yanno, YMMV.

I can get codeine OTC in Canada (I think, it’s been years), but I have a bugger of a time getting kava kava, which is an herb that is a muscle relaxant and stops an anxiety attack cold. It’s been used in Indonesia for thousands of years. It’s not available from retail outlets in Canada because some freaking herbaceutical corporations (in France, I think) started buying up the dregs of the crop, putting it into pills, and causing liver damage about ten years ago. Yeah, you have to PEEL the root before you ingest it, because the PEEL is bad for your liver. Which they would have known if they had done their research and hadn’t just gone on a money run.

So mystery solved, but it’s still not legal to import it for retail (you can import it for your individual use, but you can’t sell it in your health food store). Ten years later. Because, according to the rep from Health Canada that I saw at the time (ten years ago), they want to have a level playing field for pharmaceutical corporations, and not have them have to compete with health food stores. (I’m paraphrasing only slightly.)

Polliwog
8 years ago

I’ve had some really good results from homeopathic remedies. But, yanno, YMMV.

Out of curiosity, do you actually mean homeopathic remedies as in the “water has magical memories” stuff, or do you mean herbal/traditional medicine? People sometimes use the term to mean both, but I’m pretty sure the only one that was being scoffed at here is the former.

Ice
Ice
8 years ago

1,28 earths. And that’s ’cause I eat meat every day. But there was no ticky box for “pigs my boyfriend’s mom raises in her back yard”.

But my most important question is — 50-100 square meters is considered a studio/small apartment? In what magnificent country is that?! DO THEY TAKE IMMIGRANTS?!?!

Boyfriend and I currently live in a 2 room (1 bedroom?) apartment of remarkably huge 35 square meters, and we can pretty much barely afford it, but everything smaller seems to be on a far too high demand and was already rented. And that’s our first non-studio apartment. Everything before that was in the 15 sq m area and that’s being generous.

… how does one heat up 50 sq m?

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
8 years ago

I’ve had some really good results from homeopathic remedies. But, yanno, YMMV.

Well, no one’s said that you can’t get a nice placebo effect.

eline
eline
8 years ago

“I’ve had some really good results from homeopathic remedies. But, yanno, YMMV.”

Out of curiosity, do you actually mean homeopathic remedies as in the “water has magical memories” stuff, or do you mean herbal/traditional medicine? People sometimes use the term to mean both, but I’m pretty sure the only one that was being scoffed at here is the former.

Yeah, some herbal remedies are potent and can seriously interfere with other medication. Not all of them work as advertised, but I strongly think they should not be classified as altmed because they have demonstratable effects on the body. The ones demonstrated to be useful should simply be called medicine.

Homeopathy on the other hand has not one molecule of active ingredients in it, due to how the remedies are made. It’s a faith medice and a classic example of placebo. Placebo can indeed be very useful, because the placebo effect is also a real and most often beneficial phenomenom. But homeopathy is almost always claimed to be something else than it is, with very wild and out of this reality “theories” presented to explain how it “works” (quantum mechanics and vague “energy” being just a few; the explanations seem to follow the latest discoveries of real science, usually misinterpreting and twisting the science to fit homeopathy’s marketing needs).

It can and will work as well as placebo would. I would fully support it as a complementary therapy if it wasn’t for the lies, be they intentional or simple misunderstandings about how it works.

eline
eline
8 years ago

And talking of herbal remedies… if you’re into experimenting with a huge variety of herbals and ever happen to travel to Amsterdam, try the “smart shops”. That’s different from the coffee shops; smart shops specialise in stuff like kava kava and hundreds other traditional herbs for various uses.

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

Additional anecdata: I don’t even like children and am attracted to men “nurturing” them. Of course men adoring cats just slay me. Data: http://hotguyswithcats.com/ (Most of these men have body types that don’t typically do anything for me… but kitties!)

Also, I’m pretty sure that this video didn’t get 1.5 million views solely because of the hedgepeeg.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Yeah, I think all of Elam’s stuff has the same rythm: “Females have cooties, females have cooties, females have cooties.”
I think I got it. You don’t have to write anything else for the rest of your life, boss.

Errr, chucky boy, afirmative action isn’t a law. There’s Equal Oppurtunity Employment, but that’s different….ah, never mind. You’re one of our more boring trolls.

Though If I could ask everyone here if you ever had someone (a co-worker with no management power) inform you that you were probably hired because you’re a minority. It happened to me– out of the blue at my last work place, and they were smiling a little bit. What is that anyway? I had great job reviews, won awards and kudos from the public, and I get told this by some co-worker who would often ask me for advice and help. Is it smugness or insecurity?
The funny part is that people often told me this oh-so-clever co-worker of mine was hired because of who his dad was (kinda well-known reporter in Washington).

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

Legacy hires like to assume that everyone else got their job by gaming the system one way or another. That way they absolve themselves of responsibility for cheating.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Maybe that’s it, bewilderness. Still, I would never say that to anyone.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

That is where decent human being 101 comes in to play, innit?

Nikki
Nikki
8 years ago

Don’t be vain but screw you if you don’t end up as my version of attractive!

Emmy
Emmy
8 years ago

@Nepenthe awwww that made my day! And kind, nurturing men are extremely attractive, if only because those are attractive/admirable qualities in anyone, but also because it kind of precludes the possibility of that dude being a scary, violent person who will murder you.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

I mean the magic water/sugar pills. They either work great or do nothing at all (unlike chemicals, whether synthetic or herbal, which kill hundreds of people every year). If it’s the placebo effect, I’m cool with that, but I’ve also used various hands-on systems (Reiki, Therapeutic Touch) and acupuncture, and there’s something going on there. I think we just haven’t figured out the physiological mechanism, and I’m okay with that. I don’t in any way consider myself a victim of fraudulent advertising or a credulous dupe.

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

Well, with Reiki and homeopathy, the laws of physics would have to be vastly different from our current understanding of them for them to be real. But if you’ve got the money to piss away and it makes you happy, go fer it.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

Actually, there’s a study done at Linköping University showing that fake acupuncture is as efficient as real acupunture. (Fake – the needles actually don’t enter the body, they give you a tiny prick and then withdraws inside the needle’s handle, sort of like a theater knife, plus they are placed at random over the body, while real acupuncture uses needles that actually enter the body and are placed at specific spots.) So presumably it’s just placebo there as well.
The study was done because the researchers thought that it MIGHT be the case that acupuncture actually does something to the body. Like, it’s not just water, it’s needles you stick into people’s bodies at certain spots. But, alas, seems to be placebo and nothing else. However, media reporting about the study misrepresented it. The study tested the effects of acupunkture, fake acupunkture AND regular medicine against nausea after radiation treatment against cancer, and it turns out (which is in itself really interesting, of course) that acupunkture AND fake acupunkture were both way better than regular medicine at treating nausea. The media just didn’t mention the fake acupunkture part.

The study is here in Swedish (if anyone, uh, want to look it up for themselves by using Google translate or something http://www.liu.se/forskning/forskningsnyheter/1.261275?l=sv )

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

In Sweden we have a term which is “natural medicine”. The manufacturers are only allowed to call something “natural medicine” if it’s directly based on plants or animals (such as fish oil), if there’s a tradition of using it to cure certain ills or strengthen the body, if it’s been proven non-harmful (doesn’t mean completely free of side-effects – many people, for instance, report mild allergic symptoms from various “natural medicines”), AND if the manufacturer only recommends it for conditions that don’t normally require that you go to a doctor.

I tend to assume that “natural medicines” are largely ineffectual, since if it did have an actual effect, the manufacturers could earn more money by having it properly tested to prove it’s effect and then sell it as real medicine. At the same time, if a product isn’t too expensive I guess it could be worth a try.

eline
eline
8 years ago

That study you mentioned is a brilliant example of the power of placebo. It is a very real effect and it explains how every altmed technique works. Of course, we don’t fully understand placebo yet but it is some kind of body’s internal healing and pain relief system. And it can be triggered in many, many ways. The fact it can be triggered in so many ways shows that there is no inherently different mechanism of action in the placebo or for example homeopathy itself. All that matters is that something radical and “ritualistic” is done. A fake surgery (yes, seriously) is a stronger placebo than a sugar pill. Two sugarpills work better than one. Red sugar pill causes people to feel energetic and blue sugar pill calms them down. Acupuncture is also quite “radical” due to the needles, it’s the idea of needles entering the skin that is the trigger.

And it doesn’t matter if you know this is why it feels like it works like an active ingredient would. And it’s also not “all between your ears” and people who are “more gullible” do not benefit from placebo more than the “less gullible”. Gullibility has nothing to do with benefiting, placebo is about tricking your body and non-conscious systems, not your conscious mind (although a good number of practicioners would do both as history has proven). Of course, different triggers work differently for different people so one might feel better after acupuncture and the other not. I’ve tried it and it did make me less nauseous. That’s all good as long as there’s honesty in the science done in altmed. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with placebo, and it should probably be used a lot more in our age of unlimited odd feelings and syndromes, but it has to recognised as what it is.

I.. didn’t think my little rant on insurance would spring a little off-topic discussion but 😀