So over on MGTOWforums, the regulars are pondering the age-old question – should these committed women-avoiders deal with their continued desire to stick their penises in the women they’re allegedly avoiding by resorting to prostitutes?
In the midst of a lively discussion on the advantages of “going pro” over trying to pick up a “bar hog,” one regular by the nom de internet Xtc sets forth some thoughts that, for a moment at least, seem to transcend the usual MGTOW crudity and bitterness.
“I don’t think it’s really about sex,” he writes. “I think what a lot of people are looking for is love, respect, and intimacy – which you can’t buy.”
Why, that almost seems like an insight!
Alas, in his very next sentence he spoils the moment by returning to the standard MGTOW narrative of female perfidy:
I think what put me off women altogether was the realisation that you’ll NEVER get [love, respect, and intimacy] for real. It’s sad and sobering, but that’s the way it is.
Thinking that the attention of women validates you as a person collapses once you realise they are attracted to the worst qualities in the worst men.
Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love – collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.
Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good. Once you realise it’s a quack remedy, and the whole thing is a scam, you’re free to spit it out and never partake again.
That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.
If women really and truly are “attracted to the worst qualities of the worst men,” why aren’t they lining up at these dudes’ front doors?
Also if most women are initiating divorces maybe it’s because the men they married are unacceptable in some way? Why don’t they ever consider that? It’s like, they never think “let’s work for men being more emotionally available, ready to view marriage as a partnership instead of a ‘master/servant’ situation, let’s help men express themselves and their needs and stuff.” No. It’s always like “THOSE B*TCHES HOW DARE THEY EXPRESS DISATISFACTION WITH WHAT THEY GOT?”
@Ugh, I know, I just want to see them make the case.
Therefore, beating and raping your wife should be legal just like alcohol is? Where are you going with this argument, Bob?
“Why is it a problem if women initiate most divorces? Leaving aside the issue of why women are initiating the divorces for now… Do you think women who don’t want to be married anymore should not be initiating a divorce? I’ve never understood this common MRA gripe, since it is just thrown out there without explanation.”
Marriage is not meant to be a temporary arrangement. It is a partnership that is meant to last the rest of your life. The gripe as I understand it is that in a situation where one of the four A’s are not present (abuse, adultery, addiction or abandonment) the wife is initiating the divorce for frivolous reasons. If she’s bored, not feeling fulfilled, if the husband in her opinion is not meeting her relationship needs, these are problems to be explored in couples counseling, not family courts. The MRAs also believe that once the divorce is initiated, the family courts are predisposed to favor mothers when it comes to custody arrangements, etc. I am not saying they are right or wrong, but that is the basis of what they are arguing: “Women are initiating divorce for frivolous reasons and profiting from it.”
Given how high the divorce rate is, I think both men and women should be thinking long and hard and carefully about what they are attempting to take on.
“Therefore, beating and raping your wife should be legal just like alcohol is? Where are you going with this argument, Bob?”
I can see where you are struggling with this argument. I did not say that spousal rape and abuse should be legal and not prosecuted. I did not say I oppose domestic violence statutes that are on the books. i said in response to another poster that thought I was “romanticizing the past” that the incidence of spousal rape and abuse was not the norm when it came to marriage before the advent of domestic violence statutes and no-fault divorce law.
So in your ideal relationship, a woman who was bored and unfullfilled would stay with you out of respect for the fact that you both once signed the same sheet of paper?
“But most of us view that as a travesty instead of an opportunity to say “BUT BUT BUT MOST MEN DON’T SO WE DON’T NEED LAWS!””
Can you point out to me where I said we should rescind laws against domestic violence? That is not my argument.
“So in your ideal relationship, a woman who was bored and unfullfilled would stay with you out of respect for the fact that you both once signed the same sheet of paper?”
If a woman decided to get married and pledged to stay with her husband through sickness and in health and until “death do us part,” then I would prefer for her to explore issues of marital dissatisfaction in couples counseling before initiating a divorce filing.
Yep:
So you believe there were more trusting, honest, and caring marriages whn, by your own admission, marriages were seen as the acquistion of another human being as property.
@Bob Smith: ” I would prefer for her to explore issues of marital dissatisfaction in couples counseling before initiating a divorce filing.”
Where are your statistics about how many women do not try to ask their husbands to accompany them to therapy before filing for divorce?
You do realize that most divorcing couples (about 95%) settle any custody issues without involving the family courts, right? And that divorced fathers who fight for custody, usually get it? So let’s leave that aside.
What if counseling doesn’t work?
Anyway, I agree that people in general should be thoughtful and careful when entering into a marriage, and thoughtful and careful when ending it as well. But I don’t consider being deeply unhappy to be a frivolous reason for ending a marriage.
You know that couple’s counseling is actually a huge industry, right?
Also, that the only real opponents to couple’s counseling are MRAs, right?
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CFAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.the-spearhead.com%2F2011%2F05%2F26%2Fmarriage-counseling-is-useless%2F&ei=zJC7UP-zB4qxygGxzYGADA&usg=AFQjCNHMn8yc7ZyfsGPWxt5SPJFz4GO_XA
“Yep:
Were there dysfunctional and unhappy marriages in the past? Of course. But I’d argue there were many more trusting, honest, caring ones than there are today.
So you believe there were more trusting, honest, and caring marriages whn, by your own admission, marriages were seen as the acquistion of another human being as property.”
Wow. That is insane projection. Yes, I firmly believe that many if not most people, men and women both, married for love back then, even though the society around them was firmly rooted in patriarchal imperatives. That was certainly the case with both sets of my grandparents. And I firmly believe that my grandparents were very much the norm and not the exception back then.
A. You don’t actually know that, as Ugh has pointed out. You are assuming it.
B. Rates of spousal abuse and rape go down when those laws are on the books, as (I think) Heidihi pointed out.
C. You say you’re not opposed to these laws.
D. So, what is your point?
My problem with the way MRAs state this is the boredom accusation, and also if I have communicated to my spouse that the relationship is not meeting something I need and they do nothing about it or refuse to, what then? The assumption is always that the wife did not stay for a time after letting her spouse know the need isn’t being met or even suggested or went to counseling.
Is there any research or numbers to look at that say wives are not doing this before divorcing? Otherwise, I suspect this is more ass-data on the part of the MRM. Also, how is purposely not meeting a need your spouse has communicated to you not abandonment?
“You know that couple’s counseling is actually a huge industry, right?
Also, that the only real opponents to couple’s counseling are MRAs, right?”
I’m not an MRA. What do you think of a married man or woman that decides to bail on their marriage without first attempting to mitigate differences and dissatisfaction through couples counseling or other means of mediation?
Citation needed.
So the reason that, in a democracy, the majority of people married for love and yet voted for illegal divorce and legal domestic abuse was…
“So, what is your point?”
My point is that in decades past I believe there were far more happy marriages than ones plagued by dysfunction and spousal abuse. Ugh seems to disagree.
“Citation needed.”
I’m waiting on the citation that far more men beat and raped their wives than not.
I think we live in a free country and they can associate or not associate with whoever they damn well please.
Tell, you what. Go read Marriage, a History, by Stephanie Coontz. You can get it for free at your local library (chances are, anyway). Then come back and talk to us about how marriage was in the past.
“All I said was that when women were considered property, everyone was much happier. Ugh disagrees. I can’t imagine why,”
“So the reason that, in a democracy, the majority of people married for love and yet voted for illegal divorce and legal domestic abuse was…”
Almost all elections revolve around economic issues and what other issues the candidates themselves choose to run on. it’s like saying that in the election of 1932 all whites were signing off on Jim Crow because Franklin Roosevelt choose to run on Hoover’s stewardship of the economy instead of racial injustice.
“I think we live in a free country and they can associate or not associate with whoever they damn well please.”
So, in other words, you’re describing someone that doesn’t take their marriage vows seriously. God help me that I don’t end up marrying such a person. And you wonder why so many men are becoming commitment-phobic when it comes to long-term relationships.
It would be pretty hilarious to hear the same argument for slavery. “Sure, millions of people had no rights to their own bodies, legal status, or freedom of movement, but on the whole employment relations were much happier for arr involved.”