So over on MGTOWforums, the regulars are pondering the age-old question – should these committed women-avoiders deal with their continued desire to stick their penises in the women they’re allegedly avoiding by resorting to prostitutes?
In the midst of a lively discussion on the advantages of “going pro” over trying to pick up a “bar hog,” one regular by the nom de internet Xtc sets forth some thoughts that, for a moment at least, seem to transcend the usual MGTOW crudity and bitterness.
“I don’t think it’s really about sex,” he writes. “I think what a lot of people are looking for is love, respect, and intimacy – which you can’t buy.”
Why, that almost seems like an insight!
Alas, in his very next sentence he spoils the moment by returning to the standard MGTOW narrative of female perfidy:
I think what put me off women altogether was the realisation that you’ll NEVER get [love, respect, and intimacy] for real. It’s sad and sobering, but that’s the way it is.
Thinking that the attention of women validates you as a person collapses once you realise they are attracted to the worst qualities in the worst men.
Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love – collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.
Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good. Once you realise it’s a quack remedy, and the whole thing is a scam, you’re free to spit it out and never partake again.
That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.
If women really and truly are “attracted to the worst qualities of the worst men,” why aren’t they lining up at these dudes’ front doors?
Well, of course.
I’ve found in my previous discussions with MRAs that nearly all believed that women were “less”.
Less financially responsible.
Less socially independent.
Less physically or mentally strong.
Less prone to thinking things through.
Less able to care for themselves.
And yes, less emotionally mature. These men (either due to past experiences or simply from listening to other MRAs) truly feel that only “.0001%” of women are able to commit fully to a relationship. I have no doubt that MRAs really DO want love, trust, companionship and sexual/physical intimacy…after all, most humans do.
However, the descriptions that the more verbose and honest ones put forth read less like descriptions of real women and more like a synopsis of a “Stepford Wife”. If you constantly look for a super model goddess who will give you sex every morning while raising 5 children and clean the home AND keep herself 10 lbs underweight during your entire marriage…well, that’s not being very mature, is it? At that point, you want an idea…not a fellow person with their own wants and needs.
I got called out on that, let me tell you. 🙁
@Evito
Your life sounds like my life (I value personal freedom), with one difference. I will not get annoyed any more when people ask me: When I will marry someone. I just replay as a joke: not today! If someone wants to think that I am Peter Pan then it is ok by me. I am what I am and what others think about me will not change it.
People who like MGTOW are very different. Some project their subconscious idea how to be happy (children and marriage) on others. Some are religious or traditionalists because they want to imitate their parents.
I can speak only for myself and MGTOW.COM
If woman decides to tackle the challenges of life by herself, I would say YOU GO GIRL.
If man decides to tackle the challenges of life by himself, I would say YOU GO MAN.
I think that it is not right to pressure someone to fallow gender roles.
We should be allowed to live as we want. We deserve it.
@Thinker11235
Very interesting. Thank you for replying…and for doing so in such a nice manner! I was half expecting a tirade against my “not living up to my True Calling Of Motherhood” like I’ve gotten in the past. I am pleasantly surprised that you also think that people of either sex should not be forced into gender roles.
I’m even more surprised that you say you speak for yourself AND mgtow.com. I’ve spoken to many types of MRAs, and 95% of the time it seemed that Women GTOW were to be scorned, with reasons ranging from “How dare these sluts say they don’t need men” to “These women are trying to copy us” and “It doesn’t matter…every WGHOW is over 40 anyway”. At least, those are things I was told and/or read.
I actually tried to join MGTOW.com once, not permanently, just so I could start a single thread about the topic of MGTOW vs WGTOW and it’s social implications. However, my IP address was banned before I could post anything (which I thought was very odd).
Perhaps you could tell me what you think about said topic, since I’m unable to ask any of your fellow members?
Do you think WGTOW is legitimate?
How do other MGTOW feel about women who do the same?
Why do so many MRAs look down on women like myself who enjoy their privacy/the single life…or think we are all much older?
“So men opting out of the whole marriage or relationships business are doing something quite understandable, but women doing so, or not “settling” for whoever asks, are flaky? That sounds like a horrible double standard, and not a new one, either.”
I think their behavior is reactive and not a double standard. The resulting misogyny is not humane or admirable, but I don’t think it’s hard to understand why it takes root. Depending on which statistics you choose to accept, the divorce rate for first marriages in North America is anywhere from 46-54%. Women initiate anywhere from 2/3s to 3/4s of all breakups and divorces. Relationships mainly take place on women’s terms and it is women who are more likely to fall out of love, get bored, etc. They cheat just about as often as men do. These men have concluded that long-term relationships overall are not a good deal for them.
“Wanting to eventually marry and maybe have children doesn’t mean you want to marry THIS person just because he’s a decent sort and asks. What about love? What about the fact you might feel no attraction to him whatever? Do you really think the idea of marriage/children is all it takes to make someone accept a proposal?”
I’d like to know how many men are proposing to women they barely know or that they are not acquainted with very well. The overwhelming majority of women want to get married and start a family. Certainly not all women, there are a few female Clooneys out there that don’t want to have kids and instead opt for serial monogamy, but they are very much the exception and not the rule.
Most marriage proposals come about after a couple has been seriously dating for a while. What on earth is a woman doing in a serious relationship with a man when she “feels no attraction to him whatsoever?” I’m well aware that good men and women meet all the time and for whatever reason despite their innate decency there is no chemistry or passion. The solution to that is to not get seriously involved with each other and to date other people.
I would argue that if a couple has been dating for quite a long time and the man wants to proceed forward and take a big step forward in commitment, and he is a person of good character and intelligence and has proven himself to have the kind of character traits that would make a good husband and father, why is she with him if he doesn’t arouse any kind of passionate feelings of attraction in her? I don’t have any problem with a woman who begins casually dating a man and after several dates or even a few short months decides that she’s not in love, she’s not going to fall in love and it would be wasting both of their time to continue any further.
The way it used to be is that men courted any woman that took their fancy. Women openly accepted that courtship provided she had even the least bit of interest in the man. Today everyone is analyzing to death whether they are ‘settling’ or not. We have become perfectionists Everyone is waiting for the perfect match to show up, and I embarrassingly include myself somewhat in that judgment.
Were there dysfunctional and unhappy marriages in the past? Of course. But I’d argue there were many more trusting, honest, caring ones than there are today. I don’t mean to lionize and romanticize completely the past. Go back far enough and you will find Jim Crow, lack of woman’s suffrage, slavery, etc. But one thing I believe the past has over today is that back then human interaction was the primary source of reward after a hard days work. You worked your ass off during the day, and then came home and your wife and children were your reprieve from the world. There was no cable television, internet porn, xbox, facebook, etc.
Things have become complicated and confusing (and perhaps even scary) simply because we are all consciously aware that the NEED for relationships has no foundation in necessity anymore. We may WANT relationships, but we don’t NEED them. So we are in a constant push and pull as to whether we should or should not burden ourselves with them and all the elements that come with them. While on the one hand it’s great that we are all engaging in the process of enlightenment and we have this technological progress, one of the negatives associated with that is that we have become overly picky about everything in life. Our standards and hopes for what life will become are outright crazy. We’ve watched too many tv shows and movies and think that we will one day ‘have it all’ just like they do in that movie. Our comfort has made us all narcissistic and neurotic. There are very few things that we do anymore where we are not asking ourselves “Did i do the right thing? Did i do it well enough? Did i get what i want? Is he or she good enough? Am I settling?”
It just amazes me that all of the blame for the declining marriage rate and the increase in single people and the overall dissatisfaction that is increasing when it comes to people’s romantic lives is put entirely at the feet of men, and the apoplectic reactions to even suggest that maybe, just maybe, women might be playing some part or role in this in addition to the numerous problems documented with men today.
“Note, that love, respect, emotional companionship and intimacy are not mentioned as things that young women want or even need. Men, presumably, want and should have these things. But young women, who “…lack emotional integrity and emotional maturity…” ought to settle for any man that wants them.”
I think it’s pretty obvious that both genders want love, respect, emotional companionship and intimacy. If we are born straight, we are biologically wired to want companionship with the opposite sex. Both men and women ideally should develop emotional integrity and maturity, and then their mating choices would then reflect choosing substance over the superficial. Do you think that men are obligated to grow up but not women?
You’re aware that it was legal to beat and rape your wife until the 1970s in most Western countries, right?
You could always, you know, not subscribe to the Internet or cable if it bothers you so much.
Or is this another “I hate that other people make choices that change the amount of attention I receive from them” situation?
Also, it was still legal to rape your wife in Maryland until 2008. I don’t know when this mythical past was between horrible state-sanctioned abuse of women and the modern day.
“You’re aware that it was legal to beat and rape your wife until the 1970s in most Western countries, right?”
You’re aware that spousal rape and abuse has always been the exception and not the norm, right?
“You could always, you know, not subscribe to the Internet or cable if it bothers you so much.
Or is this another “I hate that other people make choices that change the amount of attention I receive from them” situation?”
I can also eschew to develop relationships with people that choose to spend their time on superficial, trivial stuff that does not interest me. Why do you assume I am bitter over the fact that I am “missing out” on spending time with such a person?
How would you even know? It’s not like there are statistics on that, because, as I said before,, it wasn’t a crime.
Also, if someone isn’t an abuser, but still votes for politicians who want to keep abuse legal, guess what? They’re still responsible. The best you can say is that they didn’t care enough about rape and abuse victims to consider them in their voting strategies.
Because you’re here on the Internet whining about how terrible society is because other people use the Internet?
Also, even in the modern age, beteen 6% and 12% of men will admit in an anonymous survey to having raped a woman. Just something to think about.
“How would you even know? It’s not like there are statistics on that, because, as I said before,, it wasn’t a crime.”
I would like to ask you the same question. By your own admission, you have no empirical or statistical evidence at all to suggest that in decades prior, it was far more likely for men to beat and rape their wives than not, and yet you would like me to believe that this was so on the basis of…what?
“Because you’re here on the Internet whining about how terrible society is because other people use the Internet?”
Can you point to me the passage where I said society “was terrible” because other people “use the internet?”
Citation: http://www2.binghamton.edu/counseling/documents/RAPE_FACT_SHEET1.pdf
“Also, even in the modern age, beteen 6% and 12% of men will admit in an anonymous survey to having raped a woman. Just something to think about.”
So, in other words, the overwhelming majority of men are not rapists. Stop the presses! News at Eleven!
Because it was legal. Beating and raping another person who was not your wife was illegal. If it wasn’t common, why would they have specifically made domestic violence acceptable?
Yes:
@Bob Smith
My point wasn’t that most men are rapists. It’s that between 1 in 20 and 1 in 10 are currently, and that society has been for thousands of years organized to promote and protect these rapists at the expense of their victims. That’s the past you’re romanticizing.
“Yes:
But one thing I believe the past has over today is that back then human interaction was the primary source of reward after a hard days work. You worked your ass off during the day, and then came home and your wife and children were your reprieve from the world. There was no cable television, internet porn, xbox, facebook, etc.”
With all due respect, your reading comprehension skills are lacking in this one instance. I never said these things were bad in and of themselves. It is usually how people use something and not the things themselves that are bad. Playing video games for an hour or two a day is fine. Playing video games from the time you wake up to the time you go to bed and doing nothing else is bad. Using facebook to keep up with your friends and family is fine. Spending several hours a day on facebook compulsively, hey, to each his or her own, but that’s not my definition of using your time wisely or productively.
“Because it was legal. Beating and raping another person who was not your wife was illegal. If it wasn’t common, why would they have specifically made domestic violence acceptable?”
By your own admission, the overwhelming majority of men are not rapists. i didn’t deny that some men never beat or raped their wives. I said that this was the exception and not the rule. You seem to be arguing the opposite because in the past there were not laws on the books against it. Alcohol is legal and yet the vast majority of people are not alcoholics. If a guy wants to beat and rape his wife, a law is not going to stop him.
“Because it was legal. Beating and raping another person who was not your wife was illegal. If it wasn’t common, why would they have specifically made domestic violence acceptable?”
Probably because feminists (rightly) succeeded in developing the idea that women were not the property of their husbands. There was a time where the idea of raping your spouse was an oxymoron. If she was your wife, you couldn’t logically rape her, or so the thinking went.
Nope, I’m arguing that the majority of people accepted rape and abuse, or, at the very least, didn;t give enough of a shit about it to make it a political issue.
Only 10% of white men in the American South owned slaves, that doesn’t mean that slavery wasn’t a major and accepted part of their society.
False.
http://www.who.int/gender/violence/who_multicountry_study/summary_report/summary_report_English2.pdf Page 6
Countries in which domestic violence legislation exists see much lower rates.
So the past time when you think relationships were healthier was… when people assumed that women were the abusable property of men?
Why is it a problem if women initiate most divorces? Leaving aside the issue of why women are initiating the divorces for now… Do you think women who don’t want to be married anymore should not be initiating a divorce? I’ve never understood this common MRA gripe, since it is just thrown out there without explanation.
Seeing as their proposed solution is usually a return to the good old days, I think we know the answer to that question.
Bob Smith: “Spending several hours a day on facebook compulsively, hey, to each his or her own, but that’s not my definition of using your time wisely or productively.”
Then…i hope you manage not to use your own personal time that way, right? For me, worrying too much about how other people are spending their own personal time is a bad use of my time. So i won’t worry too much about you.
Also, no one says “the majority of men are rapists.” But 1 in 20 is still a lot. The overwhelming majority of people aren’t murderers either but we still have laws about that. You say “If a guy wants to beat and rape his wife, a law is not going to stop him.” And unfortunately, in our society, that is often all too true. But most of us view that as a travesty instead of an opportunity to say “BUT BUT BUT MOST MEN DON’T SO WE DON’T NEED LAWS!”