So over on MGTOWforums, the regulars are pondering the age-old question – should these committed women-avoiders deal with their continued desire to stick their penises in the women they’re allegedly avoiding by resorting to prostitutes?
In the midst of a lively discussion on the advantages of “going pro” over trying to pick up a “bar hog,” one regular by the nom de internet Xtc sets forth some thoughts that, for a moment at least, seem to transcend the usual MGTOW crudity and bitterness.
“I don’t think it’s really about sex,” he writes. “I think what a lot of people are looking for is love, respect, and intimacy – which you can’t buy.”
Why, that almost seems like an insight!
Alas, in his very next sentence he spoils the moment by returning to the standard MGTOW narrative of female perfidy:
I think what put me off women altogether was the realisation that you’ll NEVER get [love, respect, and intimacy] for real. It’s sad and sobering, but that’s the way it is.
Thinking that the attention of women validates you as a person collapses once you realise they are attracted to the worst qualities in the worst men.
Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love – collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.
Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good. Once you realise it’s a quack remedy, and the whole thing is a scam, you’re free to spit it out and never partake again.
That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.
If women really and truly are “attracted to the worst qualities of the worst men,” why aren’t they lining up at these dudes’ front doors?
The more I read Bob talking about his relationship,the more I get creeped out due to my own experiences. I grew up in a time and place where it was perceived as incredibly rude to say no to anybody.
Now, some of this is due to the way I processed information and some other factors that are personal to me, but the fact is I ended up not being able to say NO to anybody, about anything, because RUDE.
In my 20s I had sex with men not because I wanted to but because it would be rude to say no. *shudders* Sometimes it was just a one night thing, sometimes a sort of relationship developed that went on until the tension between his expectations and mine led to problems.
In some situations/relationships, my inability to speak up and set boundaries and say what I wanted would eventually build up to major explosion (on my part).
I still have some tendencies that way, but I’ve learned to say no, and to understand I need to set boundaries, and to do what I want, not just what everybody else wants (and most important of all to NOT feel fucking guilty).
And it helped when I was able to say flat out, I did not want to get married (I never wanted to get married, but good grief, try saying that out loud in small town Idaho in the 60s, *more shudders*).
So, um, TMI, but I am in great sympathy with the young woman because I can just “see” myself (absent the rapture stuff, but that’s just another whole level of fundamentalist religion fucking people up) going along because, well, it would be rude.
My situations never went that far, probably because I was pulling some passive aggressive stuff that was noticeable–so they broke up with me (and in most cases, it was a total relief).
But in cultures, especially the one that this young woman apparently came form, where women are acculturated into always being nice, always being agreeable, never saying no, etc. etc. etc., well, I can see this “sudden” change coming as it just all built up.
So, no, I’m not inclined to blame a woman in that situation. (Neither am I inclined to blame the man.) Just, life isn’t fair, and shit happens.
@Diogenes
What’s weird about homebrew?
Ok, so, I’m wondering what Diogenes did? I’m sorry I don’t follow the comment section as well as I used to, but they said nothing particularly bad on this article, so why does everyone hate them so much?
And, come on guys. Bob is sad and lonely and confused and hurt and not dealing well, and that’s ok. It’s how people are. And while it’s not our job to fix him, we don’t have to keep ragging at him. If you want him to go away just ignore him.
I mean, he’s not being particularly nasty, just kind of dumb. Everyone’s reaction seems a bit over the top, particularly toward someone who is grieving.
I made mulled wine last night, it was delicious, and I saved the leftover apples in jars with brandy.
KittySnide: Is your maple whisky Sortilege? If so that’s nom. Much Nommier than the various honey-bourbons I’ve had in the States.
Sarah: Diogenes main problem is that he is naive, in the extreme, and thinks he’s uber-clued in. Added to his name, with all the attendant baggage such a pretension bring along, he’s not got a whole lot of good will built up.
In short, he’s more doltish than harmful.
Apparently (I didn’t see the link) he’s also something of a twit on dating advice.
I do, tend, to agree with him that a “martini” needs gin, but as there is no other good name for it I don’t really care (I am, with martinis, something of a stick in the mud… gin, vermouth [somewhere between 4-5:1] olives, perhaps a twist of lemon).
Some of the nastier things I have tried, Ratzputz (a ginger based liqueur, color of artificial maraschino), Frenet Branca (added to cocktails, ok… as an aperitif/digestif, no way). Things I refused to try, Garlic Beer, Cynar.
I straight up won’t drink a vodka martini unless it is ultra tippy-top shelf. I will drink a gin martini made with nearly anything, and the dirtier the better. 😉
Whew! I was terrified he’d come back.
You know, Sarah this is a pretty long thread so it’s not only possible but understable that you may not have read the entire exchange. But that discussion with “Bob” took place over the course of two and half days. And it started because he came in here saying some fairly ridiculous and inflammatory stuff. Specifically, that women had no good reason to turn down marriage proposals and, as a group, are intellectually and emotionally immature.
All the stuff about his break up, though easily guessed at, wasn’t admitted until later. Much, much later. He was kind of an ass.
I ought to try mulled wine again. I used to have a friend who made it, but she always used the cheapest wine and it was awful. Kind of turned me off from the whole concept.
@MordsithJ, there is a nordic mulled wine called glögg that was introduced to me by some performers in one of the Christmas Revels.
Basically you soak whole cloves, cinnamon, allspice, star anise, orange peel, and other mulling spices in vodka for about a week. You then melt sugar into a sweet red wine and add the vodka.
Obviously, it will knock you on your ass.
Holy crap, twenty thousand words of Bob?
No wonder my eyes always glazed over when his comments appeared.
Glögg is fantastic. I love making it in the winter. But not quite as much as I love cinnamon apple whiskey. Basically, you soak apples in the whiskey for six weeks, and a couple cinnamon sticks in it for two. I usually start out with the cinnamon and the apples in the jug, and take the cinnamon out after two weeks, but it might be easier to put the cinnamon in at the end. I recommend peeling the apples to remove the bitter taste. Delicious on its own or with a bit of simple syrup. The apples can be baked into a pie or served over ice cream, but they soak up a lot of the bitter from the liquor and have to be seasoned heavily.
I can’t believe I went away for ONE WEEKEND and you guys managed to rack up a 900-comment thread (I’ve read it all) and BREAK STEELEBUTT.
Without me :(((
“In short if (as has been suggested before) you think the woman gives up the right to change her mind the minute she accepts a proposal.”
No, I don’t think that. If I thought that, the corollary is that I don’t have the right to ever change my mind. I think there’s a world of difference between two people that are casually dating, have only been going out for a short while, or are not monogamous, as opposed to somebody that is in a serious relationship and has accepted a proposal. Your mileage may vary, but I think most people would agree that once you accept a proposal, you are in effect saying that you are committed to giving your relationship your best shot and that relationships sometimes require work and effort. You’re saying that you have invested quite a bit and you’re not just going to bolt out the door with little to no explanation. Her behavior would have made a lot more sense if we were not seriously involved.
Nobody should bat an eye when the person you’ve been seeing for a month or two says “Sorry, it’s been nice getting to know you, but I don’t think it’s going to work out.” When the same thing happens with your fiancee, and there hasn’t been something that has fundamentally altered your relationship, hey you can’t stop that person from leaving and you shouldn’t try. But I think most people on the receiving end of that treatment would come to conclude the person they were involved with was immature, flaky, unreliable, etc. Why is that so hard to understand?
Bob, GO AWAY. You’re not listening to anyone and we’re not your therapists. Just go away.
Well, Bob, maybe we have a hard time understanding you because you’re panting too heavily from moving all those goalposts. Since you have no intention of honest conversation, and no one here is your personal therapist, maybe it’s time to move on.
Why am I only learning about this now?! What kind of whiskey do you like to use? And is there anyway to speed up the process? How does it taste after, say, four weeks?
Holy fuck, is Bob still here? O.o Dude, get a hobby. I suggest knitting or calligraphy. Something that keeps you from typing.
@Sarah
While diogenes hasn’t been dumb in this particular thread, he’s left some real gems in other ones and the universe does not reset itself every time David puts up a new post. Also, what pecunium said.
(de-lurking)
Okay, so this is another reason I love this blog: random, awesome discussions in the comment threads. Learning all about the alcohol…(not legally old enough to drink yet, so this is all so exciting to me)
@Bagelsan:
re: Bob Smith and Diogenes the Critic: I SHIP IT.
I usually go for Old Crow or another similarly cheap bourbon. I would guess that after four weeks it’s probably OK, and that a lot of the later soaking relates to smoothness and not flavor. I tried a taste at 2 weeks when I pulled out the cinnamon, and there was a lot of cinnamon flavor, but not much apple, and it still had the cheap bourbon bite to it. Maybe starting from a nicer whiskey would also speed it up. The roughness of Old Crow is *gone* after six weeks, and the result is delicious and smooth, so if you started from a base that was smooth to begin with, you could just flavor the whiskey and not soak out the bitterness.
(Not trying to imply that you’re enabling underage drinking. What i mean is i don’t know much about cocktails/weird alcohol because of not having the opportunity to learn from experience yet, and being too rule-bound/square to experiment on my own.)
Hey, thenatfantastic – how was Brussels? (Was that this weekend?) Did you have a good time?
Diogenes the *Cynic*
Comment fail.
MKlein – that sums up 99% of his comments!
I honestly have no idea wtf Bob expects us to do or say any more.
It’s clear that we are not going to join him in excoriating womankind or feminism for something his fiancée did, nor will we even join him in saying that his fiancée must be a bad person based on a one-sided screed from a lovelorn manchild. We’re not even willing to concede that feminism is responsible for making men feel blamed for everything, damn our eyes.
So why keep posting? Why? What magic words are we not saying?
” universe does not reset itself every time David puts up a new post”
Sure it doesn’t? It does when I command so.
TO UNIVERSE, WITH BINDING EFFECT ON REALITY: RESET!!! I COMMAND THEE RESET THUS HEAKEN AND FEAR, SEE,VERILY MY COMMAND IS THE LAW RESET NOW! SO BE IT THUS I DECLARE AND PROCLAIM THE RESET OF THE UNIVERSE.