So over on MGTOWforums, the regulars are pondering the age-old question – should these committed women-avoiders deal with their continued desire to stick their penises in the women they’re allegedly avoiding by resorting to prostitutes?
In the midst of a lively discussion on the advantages of “going pro” over trying to pick up a “bar hog,” one regular by the nom de internet Xtc sets forth some thoughts that, for a moment at least, seem to transcend the usual MGTOW crudity and bitterness.
“I don’t think it’s really about sex,” he writes. “I think what a lot of people are looking for is love, respect, and intimacy – which you can’t buy.”
Why, that almost seems like an insight!
Alas, in his very next sentence he spoils the moment by returning to the standard MGTOW narrative of female perfidy:
I think what put me off women altogether was the realisation that you’ll NEVER get [love, respect, and intimacy] for real. It’s sad and sobering, but that’s the way it is.
Thinking that the attention of women validates you as a person collapses once you realise they are attracted to the worst qualities in the worst men.
Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love – collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.
Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good. Once you realise it’s a quack remedy, and the whole thing is a scam, you’re free to spit it out and never partake again.
That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.
If women really and truly are “attracted to the worst qualities of the worst men,” why aren’t they lining up at these dudes’ front doors?
It is. It’s very sad; I’m not even being sarcastic.
It’s also inevitable when, instead of processing your hurt, pain and confusion, you decide that women are frivolous and emotionally immature.
“She did right by you, and you are pissed off about it.
Dude, that’s sad.”
In what universe is that kind of behavior “doing right by me?” It’s sad that you think that’s acceptable. Sparing me an even worse outcome in the future? Sure, that’s obvious. How about not putting certain things on the table to begin with?
“I agree that it’s better for her to do what she did before and not after we had gotten married, since it was unavoidable.”
But you still seem angry. Why? The whole thing was “unavoidable.”
I’m so confused. What does Bob want from us?????
A gif representing Bob’s contortions when arguing.
Bob. Please. For the love of little fishes.
You aren’t talking about “people,” you’re talking about you. You’re talking about you. Your relationship with your former fiance. You are talking about you.
“In what universe is that kind of behavior “doing right by me?” It’s sad that you think that’s acceptable. Sparing me an even worse outcome in the future? Sure, that’s obvious. How about not putting certain things on the table to begin.”
OK, now it sounds like you expect to live in this universe and never have to experience anything negative. Either you accept that not marrying her turned out to be for the best or you don’t. You keep changing your mind.
“It is. It’s very sad; I’m not even being sarcastic.
It’s also inevitable when, instead of processing your hurt, pain and confusion, you decide that women are frivolous and emotionally immature.”
So you would have no problem getting seriously involved with a person, they start talking out their ass about how much they want to be with you for the long-term, they never communicate any problems or concerns, up until the very end they make it clear they are “Full spead ahead” and then at the start of a family crisis, they bail without anything more than “I don’t want to” and you think she “did right by me.” If she were going to do right by me, how about when the subject of marriage came up, she said “Things are going great now, but why don’t we revisit that subject down the road? I’m not comfortable starting to make such long-term plans right now.” And you think she did right by me, just because in the end I was spared lawyer fees and sparring over custody rights and visitation schedules. That’s messed up.
The one in which she had her own come-to-Jesus moment, realized her mistake and risked the wrath and judgment of you, her family, and our culture in act of incredible bravery that saved you both from a loveless marriage.
Bob: Consider the irony… It’s been pretty eye-opening to say the least. I have a low opinion of MRAs because they have let their bitterness and hatred infect their psyches
And compare that to the tens of thousands of words you’ve written here about how bitter you are at all women (see above the shit about, “leaving because they are bored”, and the ills of no-fault divorce, and the 27 year olds who spurn perfectly decent dudes… and the evidence provided to show that all of that was bullshit).
You’ve let bitterness infect your psyche. Hatred may follow.
Just an acknowledgement that it’s not only men that struggle with intimate, close relationships.
And that bit of codswallop is why people here think you were/are emotionally abusive (that or denser than neutronium). No one here has said any such thing.
Just like this makes me think you are prone to emotionally abusive behaviors: No, I stated pretty clearly that I don’t want to be with somebody that is only there out of obligation, pity, guilt and not desire.
If that’s what you think… what the fucking problem?
Seriously.
If that’s what you want, then the reason she gave is MORE than “adequate”. Hell, if that’s what you think then every single line of argument you’ve made about divorce is diametrically opposed to your belief system.
So which is it… is “boredom” not grounds for divorce? Or is staying out of “obligation, pity, guilt, and not desire” the thing women have to do.
You can’t have both; you have to choose.
I’m home sick today, so you might be seeing lots of cat gifs from me. I’m just sayin’.
“The one in which she had her own come-to-Jesus moment, realized her mistake and risked the wrath and judgment of you, her family, and our culture in act of incredible bravery that saved you both from a loveless marriage.”
Yes, that’s very brave. I can think of something that required even more courage: At an earlier point, risking me ending things because I wasn’t sure this person could meet my long-term needs by saying “Things are going great now, but why don’t we revisit that subject down the road? I’m not comfortable starting to make such long-term plans right now.”
This is exactly what I’m talking about. Just about anything a woman does can be spun as courageous and brave. If I had done what she did in the same manner, I would be an evil, cowardly piece of shit.
Bob, I would be hurt and sad and confused. I wouldn’t throw up my hands and decide that it’s because men as a group are emotionally immature and frivolous, and all the other bullshit you’ve thrown around this thread for the last two days.
Own. Your. Shit.
Maybe I’ll go take a little nap after this one.
Carry on.
Cloudiah: sorry you’re sick, but the cat gifs are making my day.
Bullshit.
This is you, projecting your insecurities and prejudices onto me. I did actually counsel a guy friend of mine to end a serious engagement. He loved her but didn’t want to be married. He’d proposed out of fear that he would lose her. He didn’t want to be married. He started acting out. We talked a lot. He didn’t want to be married.
I told him that he had to end it; if it wasn’t something about their relationship and just that he didn’t really want to be married, then he was going to have to take his lumps (possibly come up off some reimbursement cash) and end it. He said “I’ll be a terrible person.” I said, “Marrying a woman you don’t want to be married to and breaking her heart will be worse.”
Deal with your shit, Bob. Get off the MGTOW boards and forums. You aren’t doing better.
Bob: That is a complete distortion of my earlier comment and you know it.
Is it? I don’t think so, and your second clause doesn’t relate to what I said: In fact what I said was pretty much the same as what you said, that people go into marriages with the best of hopes and intentions.
I wasn’t talking about people’s expectations when they decide to get married. I was talking about your complaint that 27 year old women are “turning down suitors of decent character”.
No, what I want is for people to be way more careful before they start throwing around such promises.
Are you accusing her of knowing she didn’t want to marry you when she said yes? That’s cold. Have any evidence to support it?
IIn what universe is that kind of behavior “doing right by me?” It’s sad that you think that’s acceptable. Sparing me an even worse outcome in the future? Sure, that’s obvious. How about not putting certain things on the table to begin with?
And you double down. You are, basically, accusing her of jerking you around from the beginning. Of intending to “jilt” you. Got proof? No.
You haven’t been honest with us (see the shift from, “my friend” to it being your personal story; as well as the inability to keep to any single argument; or admit when you’ve been given information you demanded; because it proved your thesis to be invalid on it’s face).
Why should we give you the benefit of doubt? What have we got to judge you on? A mish-mash of half-truths, changed stories and shifting goalposts.
I second that call of bullshit.
Why do you assume we’d demonize a man who decided getting married just because other people wanted him to is a bad idea. No one here even came close to saying that.
Bee: I’m so confused. What does Bob want from us?????
To tell him he was hard done by. Since he wasn’t, it’s not going to happen. Which offends him, and gives him a sad.
I don’t know, Pecunium. Bob is a pretty classic example of wanting to have cake and eat cake.
I think he wants us to admit that some women do bad things…using his personal example as proof.
Except we know some women do bad things…but your personal example wasn’t a good example of that.
That would be a problem if it happened to me — and it certainly HAS happened to me that a breakup seemingly came out of nowhere — but it wouldn’t lead me to an inference that men in general are frivolous and emotionally immature. Seriously, let’s state the obvious here: if you are heterosexual male, it’s a safe bet you’ve never been involved in a relationship with a man. So your argument on how men supposedly treat women better than women treat men is based on (1) your self-serving perception of your own relationships; and (2) self-serving statements made by your male buddies. Based on these two things, you make the myopic assumption that men don’t do the shit that you accuse women of doing. Or maybe you believe, though you won’t explicitly say it, that men are the default “people”, and thus it is women’s responsibility to adjust in order to meet men’s dreams and expectations, while men do not have a reciprocal obligation. Whatever your stance on this, you should realize that all of us have been hurt, badly. I think I’m not a horrible person, and I was quite easy on the eye in my dating days (if I say so myself) — and yet, surprise surprise, I didn’t get to date every man I was ever interested in, and I was occasionally treated horribly by men and had my heart broken repeatedly. Including by an ex-husband who, you know, promised to be nice to me forever and ever. So saying this nonsense that relationships are “on women’s terms” simply because one woman had the audacity to dash your hopes is self-centered and just plain absurd. You have no experience of being with a man, so you can’t say on whose terms relationships are from a woman’s point of view.
Maybe she felt that she did want to marry you until something happened that made her reconsider. I know that it’s happened to me a number of times when a seemingly small occurrence flipped a switch inside my head and told that this man was not worth my time, and I wanted to get away immediately. It’s normal for people to feel conflicted, and to be unable to articulate those conflicts in a way that you seem to be demanding, it takes time to sort out their thoughts. And, it’s pretty much impossible to continually update another person on the conflicts that go on inside your head until your thoughts have coagulated. “Hey, darling? That story that you told me about that practical joke that put a girl in a hospital for a couple of days left a really bad taste in my mouth, and I although I now feel so put off that I am not sure I’ll be able to do it with you anymore, and I wonder whether you are a fit person to raise our children, I guess owe you a few months of couples counseling, so … separate bedrooms and I’ll get out my check book? Maybe someone with a PhD will help me overlook my doubts.” Sorry, it doesn’t work that way.
NOW who’s being cavalier about divorce?
Bob: This is exactly what I’m talking about. Just about anything a woman does can be spun as courageous and brave. If I had done what she did in the same manner, I would be an evil, cowardly piece of shit.
You’re channeling your inner MRA.
My first fiancée treated me shabbily: She didn’t give me a good idea of what it was she expected from me, and when the circumstances (I’d moved 400 miles, and left full-time employment in the process, had no good support network, etc) she broke up with me.
That wasn’t a complete surprise; painful though it was. That she broke up with me that evening because she wanted to see someone else; right away. That was shitty.
That she didn’t have the decency to spend her nights with him at his place, but brought him back to ours… that was really shitty.
She didn’t do right by me. I’d say that she was a sad, and sorry, excuse for a human being. It was about a year before I got out of the really fucked up headspace.
That’s not what happened to you. What happened to you was someone realised they couldn’t do what they’d thought they were able to.
And you are pissed off.
That’s childish. It self-destructive. It’s stupid.
You want us to agree that you were screwed over. Well, from the details you gave, you weren’t. Had she ignored that, and married you… then you’d be right to say she didn’t do right by you. If she knew, at the outset, that marriage wasn’t going to happen, then she did you wrong.
But you’ve given no indication that was the case. Which is why I said you want the acceptance of the proposal to be the same as the vow; and you don’t believe in divorce.
That makes you a selfish asshole.
Remember like eight pages back when divorce was this terrible thing that women did out of nothing but boredom and the desire for profit?