So over on MGTOWforums, the regulars are pondering the age-old question – should these committed women-avoiders deal with their continued desire to stick their penises in the women they’re allegedly avoiding by resorting to prostitutes?
In the midst of a lively discussion on the advantages of “going pro” over trying to pick up a “bar hog,” one regular by the nom de internet Xtc sets forth some thoughts that, for a moment at least, seem to transcend the usual MGTOW crudity and bitterness.
“I don’t think it’s really about sex,” he writes. “I think what a lot of people are looking for is love, respect, and intimacy – which you can’t buy.”
Why, that almost seems like an insight!
Alas, in his very next sentence he spoils the moment by returning to the standard MGTOW narrative of female perfidy:
I think what put me off women altogether was the realisation that you’ll NEVER get [love, respect, and intimacy] for real. It’s sad and sobering, but that’s the way it is.
Thinking that the attention of women validates you as a person collapses once you realise they are attracted to the worst qualities in the worst men.
Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love – collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.
Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good. Once you realise it’s a quack remedy, and the whole thing is a scam, you’re free to spit it out and never partake again.
That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.
If women really and truly are “attracted to the worst qualities of the worst men,” why aren’t they lining up at these dudes’ front doors?
Bob tries to pull standard emotionally abusive moves on us, and is shocked — SHOCKED, I tell you — when we think he might do the same in his personal relationships.
So it’s not pedantic after all?
“Adults change their minds, bob. What can you do? Do you expect a collective apology from women everywhere because your ex bailed? ”
Just an acknowledgement that it’s not only men that struggle with intimate, close relationships. I get sick of double standards. What do you think would have happened if they shoe had been on the other foot? I would be judged way more harshly by society than her for cutting and running like that.
For the last two days you have, in fact, been arguing that women are mentally and emotionally inferior. Just because you haven’t been using gender slurs doesn’t mean that you haven’t been. Sorry to burst your bubble, Bob; you have in fact descended into misogyny.
Bob: Do you think it is wrong to lead people on?
Depends on what you mean by, “lead people on”. We don’t know what happened (if you’ve not seen Rashamon order it on NEtflix).
We have you, justifying your rules for life with the story you told us. A story you aren’t paying attention to. A story in which the woman tells the man a perfectly valid reason (which context, and everything) for her decisions.
Which you are all Young Werther over, because you didn’t get what you wanted.
That sucks. But it’s not “being led on”. You wanted her to marry, “your friend”. Even though she didn’t want to. Then you’d have wanted her to stay married.
In short, her desires don’t mean shit to you; but this is what you describe as, “being willing to do anything for her”.
If that’s the case, what you need to do is get over it, get over yourself; do some serious introspection (however you do that, retreat to a zen monastery, talk to a therapist, hike the Pacific Crest Trail, follow The Dead, whatever).
You seem to think that I am arguing that any woman over the age of 27 should rush and get married to the first guy that comes along that isn’t a functioning derelict without first exploring whether or not a life together is something they want to pursue.
That seems to be what you are advocating.
Pop-quiz: If a woman has been seeing someone for 6 months, and the sex is good, and the dates aren’t awkward and she’s 27-32 and he pops the question: What are the grounds you think she has to say “no”?
“Even when they act happy.”
If somebody is acting happy, why would I suspect they are feeling otherwise? We had those sorts of “temperature-taking” conversations all the time.
Motherfucker, did we SAY that only men struggle with this shit? No. But we did mention that it’s not nearly the BFD you seem to think because you got burned.
We seem to be able to realize that one bad break does not equal all bad breaks.
Bob: You seriously think mating patterns in ancient Rome are germane and relevant to the institution of marriage in North America in the 21st Century?
Only insofar as you said that no group, any time, in any place, ever expected marriage to be non-permanent.
You were the one who made Classical Rome relevant.
Learn to cope with the disappointments which stem from your actions.
re Judaism and ketubim : I think it’s pretty pedantic.
Only if yo consider that having one’s entire line of argument to be utter bullshit is pedantry. Again, you made a universal claim. You were wrong.
You really need to work on the whole accepting unpleasant realities thing.
if you’re a mature adult, you let them leave and don’t try to arm-twist or manipulate them into staying.
Which isn’t what “your friend” did. Your “friend” told his partner that she didn’t have a good reason for leaving (which isn’t true), and that she needed to stay and work it out.
So the example you provided is of someone acting in a way you describe as not being a mature adult. You might want to consider what that says about your, “friend”.
you’re accusing me of goalpost shifting?
Yep. You’re quick. I said it in simple words and you figured it out. Kudos.
But when you say, “ I would not want to get married to somebody who thinks of our marriage in terms of “It’s fine for now, we’ll see how it goes.” You are misrepresenting the facts.
Jews don’t get married with the expectation of it ending. They do it with every intent of making that wonderful love story the tragedy of someone who lives past the death of a beloved spouse.
Part of how they do that is by admitting up front that marriages can end. They lay out just what that couple will do if it fails, and they have to dissolve it.
That reminds them that marriage is work, and that if they don’t work at it, if they take it easy, counting on, ” ’til death us do part”, to make it last, then they are fools.
You, however, want women to say, “He’s decent, and I’m getting up there, so I need to marry him and never leave, even if it’s not working, because I might hurt his feelings.
So you are a fool, at least twice over.
Are you saying men usually asking women out makes dudes second class citizens? Weird, you make it sound like a law. And some women do the asking, and no one is forcing you to persue anyone.
Bob: “That’s exactly the conversation I would have had with her in retrospect. It’s on me that I chose to gloss over that.”
So, bob, basically in nearly 600 comments, you’ve learned actually that it was in fact your fault that you were gobsmacked by her leaving, and that it was not actually the fault of womenkind?
Okay, guys! It looked touch and go for a while, but we pulled it out! but maybe we need a strategy for better return on investment next time?
Says whole country hasn’t “evolved.” Can’t understand why anyone else would see that as racist.
“That sucks. But it’s not “being led on”. You wanted her to marry, “your friend”. Even though she didn’t want to. Then you’d have wanted her to stay married.”
No, I stated pretty clearly that I don’t want to be with somebody that is only there out of obligation, pity, guilt and not desire. What I want is for people’s words to match their actions. What I want is for people to not be so reckless with other people’s hearts. That’s not the same thing as sticking with another person no matter what.
Again, this is your shit that you brought here. No one here was talking about how men are the only people who struggle with close relationships. The only person who’s been slinging about double standards has been you! There may well be people who would’ve judged you harshly for leaving her, Bob but we aren’t those people.
You can’t make that happen. The sooner you unclench and realize that, the happier you’ll be.
“Says whole country hasn’t “evolved.” Can’t understand why anyone else would see that as racist.”
Are women treated like second-class citizens or not in Saudi Arabia? That does not preclude individual Muslims having more enlightened attitudes, but are woman treated well in Saudi Arabia or not? That supposedly makes me a racist?
Is Bob 17? I only ask because I think I had a rant similar after my first dumping as a teenager.
Well, we’ll always have the cat gifs.
Bob: In retrospect I wanted her to not promise things she couldn’t and wouldn’t deliver on.
And she didn’t. She realised she couldn’t/wouldn’t be able to marry you. To give you the love, and lover, you deserved. So she broke it off.
What you want is for the “yes, I will marry you” to be a permanent state. A binding obligation, forever and ever (even though that’s never actually been the case, for any culture in the world).
She did right by you, and you are pissed off about it.
Dude, that’s sad.
“You, however, want women to say, “He’s decent, and I’m getting up there, so I need to marry him and never leave, even if it’s not working, because I might hurt his feelings.
So you are a fool, at least twice over.”
That is a complete distortion of my earlier comment and you know it. In fact what I said was pretty much the same as what you said, that people go into marriages with the best of hopes and intentions.
And there go the goalposts…
I’m scared that he might actually be over the age of thirty.
“What you want is for the “yes, I will marry you” to be a permanent state”
No, what I want is for people to be way more careful before they start throwing around such promises. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I agree that it’s better for her to do what she did before and not after we had gotten married, since it was unavoidable.
@Cloudiah “Well, we’ll always have the cat gifs.”
You’re right I hadn’t factored those into the equation!
GUISE THIS WAS A BANNER THREAD! 😀
Hi denizens of manboobz! My first comment (I’ve been lurking for a few months; I read the threads on my commutes to work). I think all of you are hilarious and brilliant (minus the trolls, who are just hilarious when they aren’t being repugnant).
But anyways. Y’all have pretty much covered everything wrong with Bob’s argument and I don’t mean to be repetitive (though it’s kind of unavoidable with trolls). But one thing that still boggles me about his first argument (there have been SO MANY shifting arguments with this one) is how MGTOW is natural because it’s about men saying they won’t conform to society’s pressures for them to get married/have kids as though those are the only options.
I mean…does he not realize women have been dealing with that pressure for CENTURIES? And yes, men in history were also expected to get married, but it wasn’t near the pressure women faced, the idea that marriage and children is ALL we were good for, and our lives would be MEANINGLESS without them, and we were DEFECTIVE if we couldn’t/wouldn’t pursue that.
Quite frankly, I still see way more of THAT than the notion that men are worthless if they don’t get married. As a trope, they might get called immature, but not defective or useless.
Also. Bob. People who DELIBERATELY lead people on with the SOLE PURPOSE of hurting them are not nice people. Satisfied? But by your own account, to me that doesn’t sound like what Girl did. Seems like she tried really, really hard to be what you wanted, and really wanted to get married or believed she should really want it, and in the end she just couldn’t. She gave you an explanation (which again, no one is owed), and you were unable to talk her out of it (which is the problem with explanations: people think they can fix it). It’s sad, but it’s not indicative of this massive cultural movement against marriage which (in your mind) is caused MORE by women than men. (Note: that’s where the accusation of sexism starts).
It is always, always, always our fault. Women and the gays (because OBVIOUSLY there is no intersection between the two) ::sarcasm::
(Apologies for the capitalization stuff, I don’t know how to do bold/italics and whatnot)
mfw i checked manboobz today