So over on MGTOWforums, the regulars are pondering the age-old question – should these committed women-avoiders deal with their continued desire to stick their penises in the women they’re allegedly avoiding by resorting to prostitutes?
In the midst of a lively discussion on the advantages of “going pro” over trying to pick up a “bar hog,” one regular by the nom de internet Xtc sets forth some thoughts that, for a moment at least, seem to transcend the usual MGTOW crudity and bitterness.
“I don’t think it’s really about sex,” he writes. “I think what a lot of people are looking for is love, respect, and intimacy – which you can’t buy.”
Why, that almost seems like an insight!
Alas, in his very next sentence he spoils the moment by returning to the standard MGTOW narrative of female perfidy:
I think what put me off women altogether was the realisation that you’ll NEVER get [love, respect, and intimacy] for real. It’s sad and sobering, but that’s the way it is.
Thinking that the attention of women validates you as a person collapses once you realise they are attracted to the worst qualities in the worst men.
Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love – collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.
Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good. Once you realise it’s a quack remedy, and the whole thing is a scam, you’re free to spit it out and never partake again.
That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.
If women really and truly are “attracted to the worst qualities of the worst men,” why aren’t they lining up at these dudes’ front doors?
He doesn’t know what he wants or what he wanted. He’s hurt -understandably so- but rather than do the genuinely painful work of examining his life and relationship, his preconceptions, prejudices, and broad generalizations, he’s chosen instead to seek comfort in the bosom of the “male subcultures.”
He knows his ex didn’t leave him because she was bored, frivolous, and emotionally immature. He told us so himself. But if feels better to side with the people who blame women’s inherent inferiority. Sure, Bob’s not a misogynist like those other guys. It’s just that his girlfriend sucked and she’s a woman so, whaddya gonna do?
I do. If for no other reason than to demonstrate that the way things were in 1950’s America (at least as portrayed on television) isn’t how people “naturally evolved” in prehistoric times.
” you changed your prior statement to say that, essentially, if the man is intelligent and decent AND he was led to believe marriage lay in the future, then it is wrong for the woman to leave.”
Do you think it is wrong to lead people on? Do you think it is wrong for people to overpromise and underdeliver? If a woman meets a man, and although he may be a good guy, there are no shared values, there is no strong physical attraction, there is no emotional compatibility, as you say, then it would be a long-term disservice to both parties to try and fit a square peg in a round hole. But if you are in serious relationship with somebody, is there not an implicit understanding that there are shared values? Is there not an implicit understanding that a reasonable level of physical attraction has been met? Is there not an implicit understanding that you would not be involved with somebody this deeply if you didn’t have many things in common, and you had a great deal of emotional and mental compatibility? Is there not an implicit understanding that you will properly communicate your needs, concerns and feelings to your partner and give the relationship your best shot? Is there not an implicit understanding that your partner is not going to simply despise you one day to the next or cut and run without properly communicating their needs, concerns and feelings? You seem to think that I am arguing that any woman over the age of 27 should rush and get married to the first guy that comes along that isn’t a functioning derelict without first exploring whether or not a life together is something they want to pursue.
When it comes to an “adequate explanation” for breaking up, it would be nice to have one, but you can’t force somebody to do something they don’t want to do. Somebody said something upthread about how I’m not entitled to a girlfriend. I would agree that I’m not entitled to a girlfriend, nobody is entitled to a significant other, but we are all entitled to courtesy and respect. Do you think it is mature, respectful and adult behavior to repeatedly communicate your intention to marry your significant other, never communicate any problems or concerns, then abruptly end a relationship without much of an explanation other than “I don’t want to” after your SO was moving forward with marriage plans and the start of a family crisis? Would you be bewildered, deeply hurt and confused? Would you naturally wonder why after everything was going so seemingly swell and you had done your best to hold up your end of the bargain that your SO was now running away as fast as they could? If you began to suspect that a surprisingly large percentage of relationships were this volatile and fragile, might you start to reassess on which terms and when you would enter another one?
Yes. Because you’ve shifted a lot of goal posts. Want evidence? Scroll up.
“Honestly, Bob, did you want your GF to marry you anyway? Despite not loving you? WHAT DID YOU WANT TO HAPPEN?”
I don’t want to be with somebody that is only there out of pity, obligation, guilt and not genuine desire. In retrospect I wanted her to not promise things she couldn’t and wouldn’t deliver on. In what world do you communicate enthusiastic plans to marry if you are not enthusiastic about the other person? And if you do have deep feelings for somebody, why not try and work things out? Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?
It’s a simple dichotomy and I think it’s a standard I try to follow: If you feel ambiguous or ambivalent about somebody, don’t communicate the opposite. And if you do have strong feelings for somebody and a desire to be with them, why trash and sabotage your relationships instead of putting effort into them?
Bob: “But if you are in serious relationship with somebody, is there not an implicit understanding that [a lot of stuff that should actually be discussed explicitly]?”
At this point, I am pretty sure Bob’s girlfriend was lying to him because she was afraid of him.
Implicit understandings aren’t usually implicit, Bob. USE YOUR WORDS.
Bob, this is how you chose to enter the conversation. You can’t be mad that other posters are holding you accountable for your statements and ignoring your sad attempts to retro-fit your argument. Deal with it.
Please stop this deliberately dishonest conflation of your relationship with the reality of relationships at large. And for the love of Pete, please stop pretending that you were completely gobsmacked by the woman who left you and that she left you with no explanations. Seriously, dude scroll up. She did show signs that she was having serious issues. She did, in fact, give you a reason.
You just don’t like/accept her reasons.
Pecunium already said it but it bears repeating: you are fundamentally intellectually dishonest.
“(Should we tip Captain Awkward off to the existence of this thread? It really does make a perfect “what not to do when someone says they want to break up with you” test case.)”
Right, because when you get broken up with, you should not do like I did, which was:
A) Not get hateful and spiteful with the dumper.
B) Not grovel, plead and beg for them to take you back
C) Not put on a full-court press to get them to reconsider their decision with incessant phone calls, texts, emails, seeking out friends and family, showing up unannounced at work and home, etc.
D) Respect their ability to practice free will and let them go
I like how simply sending her a letter expressing my desire to work things out in counseling after an abrupt turnabout on her part and that I would respect whatever she decided to do and leaving her alone after that constitutes “what not to do” when somebody breaks up with you.
Bob: “In retrospect I wanted her to not promise things she couldn’t and wouldn’t deliver on. In what world do you communicate enthusiastic plans to marry if you are not enthusiastic about the other person? And if you do have deep feelings for somebody, why not try and work things out? Why throw the baby out with the bathwater? ”
Thanks for answering my questions in that sentence there. Unfortunately, i cannot answer the questions you’ve asked that follow. I don’t know why any of those things happened between you and your GF. I recommend discussing this with a professional who can help you come to terms with this personal tragedy that you have suffered. You clearly are very hurt and wounded and you don’t know what happened. You can only move past it through careful introspection and/or help from a person good at guiding that process.
But here’s the problem that we’ve all been noticing. This problem you experienced, that is your personal problem, and you are applying it to all people. I was once called a name by a guy. Doesn’t mean i’m going to go into various blog comment threads and say that there is a subculture of women who are checking out and men have to take responsibility for it because they’re always calling women names.
“At this point, I am pretty sure Bob’s girlfriend was lying to him because she was afraid of him.”
You know nothing about our day to day dynamic or how I treated her, but you are comfortable with labeling me an abuser that hits women and is manipulative and controlling. Good job! You are absolutely not the mirror images of the MRAs you so bitterly hate.
Bob, you were talking earlier about emotional violence and time theft. Not listening to people, attempting to gas-light them by shifting goalposts and not admitting to your original offensive argument, etc, is actually abusing and emotional violence. There are more ways to abuse than with by hitting.
Bob, please refresh my memory: why are you here?
Bob does not seem to realize how much of his underlying character he has exposed in his long rants here.
“But if you are in serious relationship with somebody, is there not an implicit understanding that [a lot of stuff that should actually be discussed explicitly.”
I have to be pedantic and say “You’re not going to abandon me after pretending everything is peachy, right? If something is bothering you, you’ll actually tell me, right?” That doesn’t go without saying if you’re trying to have a relationship with an adult and not a child?
You can call it pedantic, Bob, but the rest of us might calling it having an adult relationship. That you would call it pedantic, however, is very telling.
Or that emotionally abusive behavior patterns aren’t familiar as shit to people here.
How about “Hey, hon, can I talk to you? I’m honestly a little worried about how you’re hoping to be in heaven. Can you talk to me more about that? Because obviously maybe I should hold out on those wedding invitations until i know where you want to hold the wedding, the chapel over in Morristown or THE ONE IN HEAVEN?”
Grown ups in grown up relationships talk to each other about lots of things, Bob. It has nothing to do with being pedantic and everything to do with, sound it out now, com-mu-ni-ca-tion. Children invent their world all the time. Adults don’t have that luxury.
“Not listening to people, attempting to gas-light them by shifting goalposts and not admitting to your original offensive argument, etc, is actually abusing and emotional violence. There are more ways to abuse than with by hitting.”
You have evidence that I abused my ex-girlfriend? Pretty sad, but this is how you guys prefer to argue. Express pain and bewilderment over somebody’s decision to do what they feel is best for them, even though I didn’t like it, and abided by their decision without interfering, and get labeled an abuser. Don’t express anti-gay bigotry, get labeled a homophobe. Make the accurate observation that Saudi Arabian society treats women as second-class citizens, get labeled a racist. Make the accurate observation that relationship patterns in the West constitute men usually pursue women, alrhough there are exceptions, get labeled a sexist. Apparently if you have observed that most of the time it is the men who do the asking out, this means you think women are emotionally and mentally inferior to men.
It’s been pretty eye-opening to say the least. I have a low opinion of MRAs because they have let their bitterness and hatred infect their psyches and they’ve descended into misogyny, but at least they have mastered basic reading comprehension. They can counter your actual argument instead of what they want to argue.
Adults change their minds, bob. What can you do? Do you expect a collective apology from women everywhere because your ex bailed? Come on. Actually, it would have been more childish of her to stick with the relationship if her instincts told her not to. Some self-awareness may have kicked in. Can you honestly say it would have been — and more fair if she had gone on “pretending?”
Bob, how on Earth could this place have been eye-opening for you? You’ve only seen what you wanted. We’re not kissing your ass and telling you how right about women you are, so apparently we can’t read. OK, then.
““Hey, hon, can I talk to you? I’m honestly a little worried about how you’re hoping to be in heaven. Can you talk to me more about that? Because obviously maybe I should hold out on those wedding invitations until i know where you want to hold the wedding, the chapel over in Morristown or THE ONE IN HEAVEN?””
That’s exactly the conversation I would have had with her in retrospect. It’s on me that I chose to gloss over that.
Also, i check in with my husband all the time. i’ve noticed over the years that he has a hard time talking about his darker, sadder emotions. This doesn’t mean he doesn’t feel sad, merely that bringing up feeling sad is hard, and, knowing that, every few months (more often in winter!) i bring him a treat, sit with him, and let him know how much I love him and that, because i love him, I want him to tell me how he thinks things are going between us, if he has any outstanding issues that may feel unresolved, if he has any thing that he’s worried about, both in our relationship and in life beyond our little circle of two. So, yeah, bob, it’s pedantic to check in and ask if the person you love is still happy. Even when they act happy.