So over on MGTOWforums, the regulars are pondering the age-old question – should these committed women-avoiders deal with their continued desire to stick their penises in the women they’re allegedly avoiding by resorting to prostitutes?
In the midst of a lively discussion on the advantages of “going pro” over trying to pick up a “bar hog,” one regular by the nom de internet Xtc sets forth some thoughts that, for a moment at least, seem to transcend the usual MGTOW crudity and bitterness.
“I don’t think it’s really about sex,” he writes. “I think what a lot of people are looking for is love, respect, and intimacy – which you can’t buy.”
Why, that almost seems like an insight!
Alas, in his very next sentence he spoils the moment by returning to the standard MGTOW narrative of female perfidy:
I think what put me off women altogether was the realisation that you’ll NEVER get [love, respect, and intimacy] for real. It’s sad and sobering, but that’s the way it is.
Thinking that the attention of women validates you as a person collapses once you realise they are attracted to the worst qualities in the worst men.
Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love – collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.
Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good. Once you realise it’s a quack remedy, and the whole thing is a scam, you’re free to spit it out and never partake again.
That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.
If women really and truly are “attracted to the worst qualities of the worst men,” why aren’t they lining up at these dudes’ front doors?
MAKE YOUR ACTIONS MATCH YOUR WORDS. DON’T GO THROUGH LIFE OVERPROMISING AND UNDERDELIVERING.
Who are you talking about? Lots of people put effort into their relationships. Your failed relationship is not a referendum on the state of relationships.
” Wouldn’t it be better if people could make their actions match their words and not promise the moon? Wouldn’t it be better if people could actually be bothered to put effort into their relationships? The solution is not to stay, the solution is to be much more careful about what you get yourself into.”
But see, sometimes people change, circumstances change. Sometimes people cannot predict the future. Sometimes people start out thinking they know exactly what they want, then shit happens…and what they want turns out to be a totally different thing. That’s human.
Um, Shiraz, I’m pretty sure that according to Bob, that’s “emotional negligence and emotional violence.”
“Maybe “Girl” had tried, repeatedly, to tell him what was wrong in the hopes that they could work it out and he ignored her.”
No, it did not play out in this way.
“Maybe she was working up the nerve to end it when he proposed marriage and all she could think was “How the fuck did we get here?”
Or she could have been emailing him wedding and chapel venue suggestions, asking to go to jewelry stores to look at bands which he happily agreed to, discussed in detail what kind of ring she wanted and never at any point in time brought to his attention any relationship dissatisfaction. Had she done so, Boy would’ve listened and made every reasonable effort to address her concerns and make the relationship work. But Boy never got that opportunity.
“I’ve been trying to tell him for months that things aren’t working. I just can’t!”
Or in the immediate month before giving Boy his walking papers, she could have told Boy that both sets of parents should get together to get acquainted before the wedding, gone with Boy to the jewelry store to look at bands, discussed what kind of ring she wanted, etc. She could also have left Boy with the impression that everything was good and swell.
Except you’re still talking about relationships as if they are made up of robots rather than humans. Wanting to be with someone right up until and then later not wanting to be with them anymore does not mean you lied, or didn’t put in effort, or weren’t careful. It just means you’re neither psychic nor a computer, and that life changed or circumstances changed or you changed, because that is what life and circumstances and people do. I get that when you’re wounded, thinking “man, women are all immature and terrible!” is more comforting than “sometimes shit just happens” but “sometimes shit just happens” tends to be a hell of a lot more accurate.
“Or she could have been emailing him wedding and chapel venue suggestions, asking to go to jewelry stores to look at bands which he happily agreed to, discussed in detail what kind of ring she wanted and never at any point in time brought to his attention any relationship dissatisfaction. Had she done so, Boy would’ve listened and made every reasonable effort to address her concerns and make the relationship work. But Boy never got that opportunity. ”
Um, this happened to you?
IT IS REASONABLE FOR ME TO DRAW NEGATIVE CONCLUSIONS ABOUT AN ENTIRE GENDER BECAUSE A WOMAN DID SOMETHING BAD TO ME ONCE AND THEN I FOUND A BUNCH OF OTHER BITTER LOSERS ON REDDIT.
DID THE FLOOD OF CAT GIFS SILENCE THE TROLL? OR IS THE RESPITE ONLY TEMPORARY? TIME WILL TELL.
And maybe she was pushing herself to do this but finally realised “no, this is not what I want with this person.”
When is it better? Before the wedding or after?
I think what you want us to say is that any woman who does this is EVIL AND WRONG and should be punished by what? Being miserable for the rest of her life for figuring out that no, that is not what she wanted after all? All because it would be mean for her to tell the guy this?
You want us to judge her as harshly as you have-that a woman who does what she wants for herself is being selfish and dammit, only men get to be that selfish!
Thank you Cloudiah, now I am thirsty.
“Um, this happened to you?”
Let’s say once upon a time there was a guy who met a girl. She told him at the beginning that most of her relationships were short-term because the guys would annoy her and she had only two previous that lasted as long as a year. Her biological father abandoned her mom when she was pregnant. Her mom remarried when she was 5. She was raised by her mom and stepdad and she said that they would fight all the time over her. Her stepdad is who she considers her real father, but she even expressed some resentment about him when they were together.
Anyways these two lovebirds hit it off, had a great connection and chemistry, similar values and goals in life. They fell in love. She tells him stuff like “Thank you for being the best boyfriend ever! I have always been wondering when God would bring my future husband into my life and now I’ve found him. I thank God for you. I know I will succeed in life with you as my husband by my side.” After they’d been together for a while, she told him about how she sat down with her parents and had a serious discussion about her boyfriend. She told them he was The One, she was going to marry him and he was different from all the other guys she’d ever dated. She told him throughout the time they were together that it was the best relationship she’d ever been in and he was the best guy she’d ever had. She even introduced him to her biological father, something she had never done with any guy she had ever dated before. Before him, she had had no contact with her real father for three years. After they started dating, she broke three years of silence and told him that there was somebody she wanted him to meet. Her parents wanted to meet his after she sat them down and told them they were getting married. She told her mother “I really love that boy.”
Everything was going great. They were in love and very much looking forward to a future together. At dinner with her parents late in the summer she told her mom in front of him “I was sitting out by the pool today after work and I kept thinking to myself ‘You know, I really love that boy.'”
Around Labor Day, she emails him and says “We could get married at ______ and have our reception at the _______. I love you fiance.” Mid-September she reminds him that her parents really wanted to meet his and didn’t want to wait until the wedding. At the beginning of October they go to a jewelry convention to look at wedding bands together. Her birthday and Christmas was coming up. She tells him all she wanted was gold hoop earrings. On a Monday morning in mid-October, he begins to look online and emailed her asking her whether she wanted yellow gold or white gold earrings. She replies back, “Oh, I’m glad you asked that. I want yellow gold earrings but I want a white gold RING.” Three days later on Thursday night he goes over to her apartment for dinner. They usually got together once during the week. When he gets there, he tells her he had secured a job interview for Sunday for a second job to pay for the ring. After dinner they are sitting on the couch with her watching tv when his mom calls. His dad is an alcoholic. He had wrecked both vehicles pulling into the driveway. His mom wanted him to help her come get him and check him into a rehab facility. They get him checked him in where he would be staying for the next month for treatment.
Two days later was a beautiful Saturday morning in mid-October. They had a wedding to go to that night for a friend of hers. They had four weddings to go to that fall, all for her friends and family members. They had already been to one a couple of weeks before. She texts him at nine in the morning asking to come over. He thought it was weird that she wanted to come over so early. He soon found out why.
When she arrives, she said she doesn’t feel like she can love him the way he wants to be loved and needs to be loved. He tells that he doesn’t feel neglected by her. She said when he gives her compliments and shows her affection, she doesn’t feel like that person on the inside. She said she always does this. She said she doesn’t want to waste anymore of his time and make him go to weddings he doesn’t want to go to and doesn’t have to go to. He never expressed any resentment about these weddings for her friends/family and tells her this. The entire breakup conversation lasted about 20 minutes and she didn’t say anything beyond what was already noted. The very last thing she said to him before walking out of his apartment was “You’re everything I’ve ever wanted in a man, but I can’t get married.”
She’s very religious and comes from a very conservative background. A couple of weeks before they broke up she made a very weird comment about how she wanted to go to heaven now. He asks “What? Don’t you mean you want to go to heaven when you die? What about our future together? You’re not looking forward to that?” And she says “Don’t worry, I’m not suicidal, I’d just rather be there now.” There were also a few other occasions the last month they were together where she said she wished Jesus would come back already.
He never called/texted/emailed. He sent her gerber daisies, her favorite flowers, five days after the breakup. The card said “I love you. I miss you. My heart aches for you. You’re my Rushmore.” He got radio silence from her. So then two weeks after the breakup, he mailed her a snail letter. It basically just said that he respected her decision if she thought that was for the best, but that he thought what they had together was worth trying to save and that he wanted to try couples counseling and loved her very much. And if she didn’t want to do that, then they couldn’t be friends or remain in touch. Three months went by with nothing but radio silence from her. His grandfather died. The day before the funeral she emailed him asking her for her bike back. He exchanged a couple of emails with her discussing the logistics of meeting up. Nothing of substance was discussed.
The whole encounter lasted four minutes. He could tell she was genuinely glad to see him, but it felt like there was this invisible plane between the two former lovers. They just exchanged pleasantries and that was it. Last thing he said to her was “I just want to say take care of yourself, I wish you well, I will always care about you, and thank you for letting me be a part of your life.” And she said “Thank you” and then he told her goodbye and walked back to his apt. They have had no communication of any sort since.
“You want us to judge her as harshly as you have-that a woman who does what she wants for herself is being selfish and dammit, only men get to be that selfish!”
Nobody, man or woman, should be selfish. I think the solution again is not to stay in something you don’t want, but to either not overpromise/underdeliver, or be willing to put any effort at all in a relationship before calling it quits.
IT FELT LIKE THERE WAS THIS INVISIBLE PLANE BETWEEN THE TWO FORMER LOVERS.
Dude, you should be happy; you didn’t get married. How is that not a good thing? Come on, you’ll be fine. This shit happens to lots of people. Don’t refer to yourself in the third person if you are talking about yourself. You’re in pain? Fine. You’re not the only one. Marriage isn’t a cure. She saved you from making a mistake. Be happy. You’re life is open-ended. Women are not your enemy. Social conditioning is hard to shake off — but try. It’s worth it.
Dude, WAAAAAAAY too much oversharing.
Also, not arguing in good faith.
It sucks that this happened to you Bob but it does not mean that you get to come on here and whine for an entire day about how much women are responsible for society not have a lot more marriages because they are frivolous.
This sounds like a woman who has thought things through and realised that marriage is not for her. And that happens. You eat an entire fridge of chocolate (or whatever you do when hurting) and then one day you move on to someone who does want to get married. It may take a very long time-Daniel Schorr did not get married until he was 50. One of my staffers did not get married until she was 39.
What you do not do is come on some blog like this and complain that women should be settling for anything less than what is best for them because the guy is marginally decent.
Mmmm-hmm.
Bob: What a fucking mess.
Ignoring the farrago of goalpost shifting, the unwillingness to respond to direct questions, the redefining your arguments to pretend you said things you didn’t, the gross overgeneralising, the double standards, flat out refusal to face contrary evidence, misrepresentation of your previous positions, false equivalents, and false dichotomies, lies about others’ factual representations of your implicit opinions and pretense that you aren’t prescribing remedies to others in the guise of, “just my opinions… there is this.
You are factually wrong about marriage.
You said “no one ever goes into marriage with the expectation that it’s not forever.
Ignoring that in Rome people could just walk away from a marriage (the famous story of Caesar’s wife, whom he divorced because a social event she was at was, so he deemed it, less than savory in in the appearance). All they had to do to dissolve it was say, “I quit”, and it was over.
Ignoring that… there is the ketubah in Judaism. One of the requirements for getting married is the framing of the terms of divorce. That’s right, before a couple can be wed the division of goods, property and children has to be spelled out, in writing, and attested; in front of witnesses.
So no, it’s not true that no one enters a marriage with the idea it might end. A major religion of the world mandates it.
Bob: Men and women are 100 percent responsible for their 50 percent of a given relationship. I have never said the ultimate success or failure of a relationship is solely up to women to determine,
But when women leave a relationship you assume the reason was, “she got bored”.
Actually, I’m perfectly calm. It’s the other posters that are generally resorting to ad hominem
Nope. 1: No one has used an ad hominem against you (though you have engaged in forms of it against people here). 2: I’ve seen people getting angry, this ain’t it.
You aren’t that clued in to what offends people here.
You ultimately have to deal with people as individuals.
Which you don’t, case in point, As I said earlier, women inititate most breakups and divorces. They are more likely to fall out of love and get bored.
You are lumping women/divorces. Implicit in the second half of that statement is women initiate divorce for frivolous reasons. Leaving men out of the discussion implies by exclusion they initiate divorce for serious ones. Esp. when you follow that assertion with the comment about women cheating as much as men do. Logically the inference is that men tolerate female cheating more than women do.
You also claim the rates are the same. That seems to not be true, with men cheating between 40-100 percent more than women do (based on age) and women being at least 3 times more likely to forgive a cheating partner than men are.
So it seems the premises on which you base your argument are specious, which makes the conclusions utter bullshit.
Trolling assumes that I am trying to get a rise out of the posters here or that I am deliberately presenting my arguments in an inflammatory way, or I am not sincere in what I am posting.
I’m thinking it number three. I base this on the bobbing and weaving you do when asked direct questions, the completely unreliable nature of your fact claims when tested against evidence, and the immediate, and unceasing, goalpost shifting.
Take, for example, your claim about, “the rising divorce rate”. It ain’t so. As no-fault moved it’s way across the country there was a wave of divorces. As women became more able to be independent there was a continuation in the increase. But after that (and NY was the last state to do away with at fault divorce, in the late 1990s) the rate of divorce became steady; albeit at a higher rate than in the era before no-fault. It also happens that the relative rates of divorce changed. Early marriages have higher rates, later marriages (and second marriages) have a lower rate.
Divorces peaked almost thirty years ago, and have been dropping since.
Moreover, the more liberal, and there more more feminist states have lower divorce rates
In short, you are either ignorant as all fuck, and too lazy to do simple googling, or telling falsehoods on purpose.
My vote is probably something you can infer from my comments above.
How Bob makes me feel.
Wow. Not only was that some massively creepy oversharing, but Bob, by your own account, your ex told you exactly what was wrong, and it wasn’t something you could fix. She came from the sort of background where she felt like her goal should be marriage, and while she cared about you, she realized that she did not actually love you enough to marry you. It absolutely would have been nicer for both of you if she hadn’t pushed the “marriage marriage marriage must get married” line before realizing that that ideal wasn’t matching up to her reality, but what you’ve just described has nothing to do with her being a woman or being immature or being selfish. It has to do with a person realizing that they don’t want exactly what they told themselves they were supposed to want, which is so common an experience as to be very nearly a universal one. The number of people I know who’ve had that experience, whether it’s about “I’m gonna get MARRIED” or “I’m gonna be a DOCTOR” or “I’m gonna go to COLLEGE” or “I’m gonna have BABIES” or “I’m gonna move to POLAND” (etc., etc.) is huge. A lot of big life plans sound great in principle, but when it comes time to put them into practice, suddenly we realize that what we wanted wasn’t so much the marriage or the medical degree or the babies or whatever as the idea of having that thing – so we change our plans. That’s not being immature; quite the opposite. That’s growing up.
YAY KATZ IS PLAYING GIFS.
Steele: Bob – I am impressed by your thoughtfulness, as well by as your civility in the face of the noted supercilious jackass Says. It’s certainly true that many partners do not communicate their intentions, or their beliefs adequately; I know this only too well, without going too off-topic. I certainly believe feminism to be a cause; likewise misandry.
I thought you were taking a mental health break.
Since you decided not to, the reason Ella said your, “human rights movement” was anti-woman, is because it is.
Bob: You have to address the argument I’m making,
They have (I read the entire thread, to the end of page 5 while we were driving home from visiting family, or I’d have chimed in earlier, and in more detail).
When they do, you pretend that wasn’t your argument.
1: Your initial complaint was women who had, “men of good character” proposing to them, and then turning them down.
2: You also said that these women (of 27) were somewhat past their prime, and couldn’t really afford to be holding out for, “Mr. Right”.
3: They said this was arrant nonsense, that there were any number of perfectly fine reasons a person might say no (I, for example, turned down a marriage proposal from a woman I’d been seeing for three years. Marriage wasn’t the nature of relationship I wanted with her).
4: You backpedaled and filled in details you had not included… things about this being stable relationships, with passion, and yadda-yadda-yadda.
They pointed out this was bullshit weaseling, and you layered it with incorrect nonsense about, “all marriages, everywhere, being pledges to death, and how in the old days; when women couldn’t get a divorce, everyone was happier and… well the list of your attempts to avoid answering questions; with racist, sexist, homophobic, shit (cue the cry that I’ve made an ad hominem attack) would be longer than the 800+ words of your intial post.
You’ve been intellectually dishonest from the get go, and provably so from the second comment you made.