So over on MGTOWforums, the regulars are pondering the age-old question – should these committed women-avoiders deal with their continued desire to stick their penises in the women they’re allegedly avoiding by resorting to prostitutes?
In the midst of a lively discussion on the advantages of “going pro” over trying to pick up a “bar hog,” one regular by the nom de internet Xtc sets forth some thoughts that, for a moment at least, seem to transcend the usual MGTOW crudity and bitterness.
“I don’t think it’s really about sex,” he writes. “I think what a lot of people are looking for is love, respect, and intimacy – which you can’t buy.”
Why, that almost seems like an insight!
Alas, in his very next sentence he spoils the moment by returning to the standard MGTOW narrative of female perfidy:
I think what put me off women altogether was the realisation that you’ll NEVER get [love, respect, and intimacy] for real. It’s sad and sobering, but that’s the way it is.
Thinking that the attention of women validates you as a person collapses once you realise they are attracted to the worst qualities in the worst men.
Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love – collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.
Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good. Once you realise it’s a quack remedy, and the whole thing is a scam, you’re free to spit it out and never partake again.
That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.
If women really and truly are “attracted to the worst qualities of the worst men,” why aren’t they lining up at these dudes’ front doors?
I know we’ve had the obligatory mention of Eat Pray Love. Has Bob referenced Sex and the City yet?
“What? Breakups hurt, is what you’re trying to say? What’s you’re point? Breaking up with someone is actually quite painful. It take introspection and the inevitable conclusion that you might hurt someone’s feelings.”
I am saying that some people make poor relationship material. If we choose to get involved with them, that is on us and our defective pickers.
UNCOMFORTABLE OVERSHARING, EVEN FOR THE INTERNET. AWKWARD.
“Bob, the way you are arguing here tells me everything I need to know about the way you argue. No sane person would want to have a long term relationship with a person who behaves the way you do.”
You don’t know anything about me or how I’ve conducted myself in my romantic relationships. So your opinion has no merit.
LET ME COUNTER THAT OVERSHARING WITH THIS.
Bob, have you addressed any of the examples or reasons that have been provided about how and why a woman might turn down a proposal of marriage. You’ve talked about emotional negligence and emotional violence. You’ve given a fairly dramatic and overblown hypothetical of woman disappearing of the face of the earth after receiving a marriage proposal. You’ve whined about being mocked.
But when you fail to address the direct rebuttal of your “arguments” mockery is kind of all we’ve got left.
YOUR OPINION HAS NO MERIT.
Uh, define “defective pickers” as used in your sentence.
Your original arguement is evaporating, I think. Sometimes relationships don’t work out, what the hell can you do?
” You’ve given a fairly dramatic and overblown hypothetical of woman disappearing of the face of the earth after receiving a marriage proposal.”
How is it overblown and hypothetical if it happened exactly that way to somebody that I know?
Stop a mo, Bob. Go back and read the thread. Who you are is right there in black and white in your own words.
THIS IS A THING THAT TOTALLY HAPPENED TO SOMEBODY THAT I KNOW. NOT ME, THOUGH. THAT WOULD BE WEIRD.
“Uh, define “defective pickers” as used in your sentence.”
In my own case I have had to take a long look at myself and try to reassess what I value in romantic partners. I am the common denominator in all my successes and failures.
I AM THE COMMON DENOMINATOR IN ALL MY SUCCESSES AND FAILURES.
Are you fucking kidding me? “…it happened exactly that way to somebody that I know?”
You’re debating on their behalf, then? Why?
Bob? Have you addressed any of the reasons that have been offered, seriously and in good faith, about why a woman might turn down a proposal of marriage? Have you acknowledged that a great many men propose marriage and are turned down and go on to live happy and fulfilled lives?
Maybe “Boy” was to solipsistic to notice that his relationship was in trouble. Maybe “Girl” had tried, repeatedly, to tell him what was wrong in the hopes that they could work it out and he ignored her. Maybe she was working up the nerve to end it when he proposed marriage and all she could think was “How the fuck did we get here? I’ve been trying to tell him for months that things aren’t working. I just can’t!”
Maybe she had good reason to run away.
Except “Boy” was. The problem was “she doesn’t want to date you – I mean, ‘Boy’ – anymore.” “Boy” was informed of that, when she stopped dating “him.” That problem, like a whole lot of problems, cannot actually be solved by “walking to the ends of the Earth,” and no one is owed a chance to try. There is no magical “make it work” button on relationships. Sometimes, the only reason a breakup occurs is because one party realizes that they do not want to be with the other party, not because they are bad or because there is a problem that needs fixing, but simply because they just don’t WANT to. If I choose not to eat oysters, it’s not because oysters are defective or oysters need to be sexier or oysters need to make grand romantic oyster-gestures. It’s just because I don’t particularly want to eat oysters. In the same way, the world is full of men I don’t want to date, some of whom I have previously dated. In some cases, there’s a specific, definable thing “wrong” with those men (for example, I do not want to date my abusive ex because he was abusive), but more often than not, I just don’t. One of my two best friends in the world is a man. He’s a handsome, sweet, charming person, I love him dearly, and I don’t want to date him. I have no reason why, beyond “because I don’t.” For people who are not caught up in their own entitlement, that is enough.
I get that you are hung up on your ex, and being broken up with is sad (I recommend cookies), but if she did not want to make it work, there is nothing you could have done to make it work. Period. She did not owe you the chance to try; if anything, giving you the chance to try when she already knew you were not what she wanted would have been needlessly cruel. And when you demand an “adequate” reason, what that communicates is not love and respect for her – it’s desire to control her. That’s not healthy, and any relationship founded on it could not ever be healthy.
“Stop a mo, Bob. Go back and read the thread. Who you are is right there in black and white in your own words.”
And I stand behind all of it. Yet supposedly I am sexist, homophobic, racist, pro-rape and pro-misogyny because I happen to believe that there is a cultural milieu that makes these male subcultures possible and pretty predictable.
THERE IS A CULTURAL MILIEU THAT MAKES THESE MALE SUBCULTURES POSSIBLE AND PRETTY PREDICTABLE.
You are an asshat because you expect people to understand what you mean instead of what you say. You are even more of an asshat because you think that unrealistic expectation is their problem and not yours.
OMG cloudiah! Yer killink me!
Define “male subcultures” please.
“And when you demand an “adequate” reason, what that communicates is not love and respect for her – it’s desire to control her. That’s not healthy, and any relationship founded on it could not ever be healthy.”
I have never said that the solution is for somebody to stay in something against their will. I have never insisted or demanded that somebody do something that they don’t want to do because long-term that injures both parties. I also understand that sometimes there is no real reason other than “I don’t want to.” What I don’t have to do is like or intellectually respect people who can’t make their actions match their words and who go through life overpromising and underdelivering and wounding people needlessly. I don’t have to like that. I do have to abide by another person’s free will. But I look around and see that that I am far from alone. Wouldn’t it be better if people could make their actions match their words and not promise the moon? Wouldn’t it be better if people could actually be bothered to put effort into their relationships? The solution is not to stay, the solution is to be much more careful about what you get yourself into.
THIS IS EMOTIONAL NEGLIGENCE AND EMOTIONAL VIOLENCE PERPETRATED AGAINST AN INNOCENT PERSON.
I hear ya, Bob. Don’t fall for the nice guy routine. Good advice.
Bob, you came in here, like I said before, with your own axe and grind stone. You believe that there’s a problem with modern relationships and marriage -debatable- and that men are receiving the blame. You’ve explained, in endless and boring detail, why you think women are to blame for the problems with modern relationships and you feel that we should be held accountable.
But, see, here’s the thing: We’re not whining about the state of modern relationships and marriage. You are. We don’t think that marriage is failing because men are immature. That’s some shit you dragged in here from somewhere else. Nobody here cares whether young men date or don’t, marry or don’t, play Xbox, watch porn, or grow feathers. Needless to say, we don’t think young women are the problem either. We don’t think that a society that has largely moved beyond obligatory marriage is a bad thing.
You are the person who has a problem with this. Not us.