So over on MGTOWforums, the regulars are pondering the age-old question – should these committed women-avoiders deal with their continued desire to stick their penises in the women they’re allegedly avoiding by resorting to prostitutes?
In the midst of a lively discussion on the advantages of “going pro” over trying to pick up a “bar hog,” one regular by the nom de internet Xtc sets forth some thoughts that, for a moment at least, seem to transcend the usual MGTOW crudity and bitterness.
“I don’t think it’s really about sex,” he writes. “I think what a lot of people are looking for is love, respect, and intimacy – which you can’t buy.”
Why, that almost seems like an insight!
Alas, in his very next sentence he spoils the moment by returning to the standard MGTOW narrative of female perfidy:
I think what put me off women altogether was the realisation that you’ll NEVER get [love, respect, and intimacy] for real. It’s sad and sobering, but that’s the way it is.
Thinking that the attention of women validates you as a person collapses once you realise they are attracted to the worst qualities in the worst men.
Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love – collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.
Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good. Once you realise it’s a quack remedy, and the whole thing is a scam, you’re free to spit it out and never partake again.
That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.
If women really and truly are “attracted to the worst qualities of the worst men,” why aren’t they lining up at these dudes’ front doors?
Bob: you’re an MRA. Admit it, we’re not going to like you more or anything.
“Bob: what if you run on at length monologing about what you want, regardless of what your audience thinks? Would you date you?”
This isn’t a dating site. This isn’t the neighborhood watering hole. This isn’t a church singles ministry. This isn’t a party I was invited to by somebody in my social circle. I’m not trying to get a date from this comment thread. If I’m on a date, I would take a genuine interest in what the person sitting across the table from me and try to get to know them, what their hobbies are, what they’re passionate about, see if we have anything in common, etc. I wouldn’t insist on discussing sociology. On a blog devoted to mocking MRA, PUA and MGOTW, I will share my opinion.
What this conversation needs is an MRAbot2000 intervention …
This conversation would make more sense if any one here cared whether or not people were in relationships, or if we were actually blaming any men for not wanting them.
Maybe Bob doesn’t understand that we mock MGTOW because they don’t ever GO anywhere?
No one really wants your opinion, Bob.
If you can see what hateful misogynistic losers they are, why on earth do you agree with them about relationships between men and women? Their entire premise is that whatever women do, it’s wrong; whether we wait till marriage, have a series of relationships, do paid work, do unpaid work, it doesn’t matter to these men: they will abuse us regardless. You want to do genuine work or express concern for real men’s issues, I’d suggest you move right away from the MRM, which is purely an abusers’ lobby.”
I agree with some, not all, of their observations when it comes to male and female relations. I think it is tragic the way they have let their bitterness run rampant and infect their psyches. I personally believe that there are many good women out there, but I also think it is true that these are reactive movements and that most of these men have been burned repeatedly by women that treated them horribly. I understand where their bitterness comes from. You see some of them that simply just want to reform family court law, and some of them are loons that want to eliminate women’s suffrage and demonstrate very cavemen like attitudes. MRAs are not my friends but neither are their mirror opposites, radical feminists or people that dedicate their lives to mocking these guys. We all need to develop more empathy and try to understand each other and ignore those that live at the extreme ends of the spectrum.
Oh, Bob, spare us the appeal to empathy. Boo hoo hoo.
So we’re equivalent to rad fems because we mock these guys? Can you say false equivalence, Bob?
Bob is getting more and more and more boring.
And bland.
It is like being trolled by a lukewarm vanilla pudding.
*yawn*
Ithiliana: ew. I’m picturing a semi-sentinent room temperature blob of pudding, typing away, wondering why these bitches won’t tell it it’s RIGHT, dammit.
Bob Smith: “Men and women are 100 percent responsible for their 50 percent of a given relationship.” and “It should be very obvious why these male subcultures exist. It says something bad about both men and women.”
So, because men and women are each responsible for 50 percent of any given failing relationship — why are you only talking about the appearance of these male subcultures? Why aren’t you yammering on about the equivalent female subcultures* created by men’s failure to make relationships work that reflect badly on them (and also women)?
*i don’t think there are any, i think the MRA is created by threats to privilege and there is no real equivalent among women. but i’m using bob’s stupid mansplanations for the purpose of this question.
The MRM supports rapists; praises child-abuser Thomas Ball as a martyr; wants judges murdered for deciding against them in family cases; wants to own women and children and discard them at will; is homophobic and racist; has “senior” figures like Elam who claim to be happily married yet scream abuse at women and want us physically attacked, beaten, killed; constantly spreads lies about the reality of rape and “false rape claims”; they want the age of consent lowered so they can have sex with little girls – and you expect us to show empathy for them?
How dare you mock people’s caveman-like atitudes! When Grog the emotional neanderthal talks about how he wishes it was legal to drag women back to his cave by their hair before they divorce-rape him you should nod sympathetically and offer him a shoulder to cry on, you empathy-free meanies.
And now I’m picturing The Blob, but not scary* and with lots more fail.
*Well that movie scared me when I was eight! 😛
Wow. I left here this morning and Bob did not disappoint. Wholly unoriginal double-standards, a fuck-ton of whining, shifted goal posts, delusional nostalgia – the whole kit and caboodle. And for what?
To tell us again -and again, and again- that frivolous and immature women are the reason he hasn’t achieved his dream of a nuclear family. At least he brought his own axe and grindstone.
Not constantly. But some of the people I know bemoan the state of modern dating. It’s mostly an extension of bemoaning the difficulty of forming relationships of any sort in the modern age. Bowling Alone and all that jazz.
Of course, as a person who bowls alone, I don’t know very many people.
I also want to say, as a woman who turned down not one but two marriage proposals before the age of thirty, that I didn’t realize that it was done out of emotional immaturity and frivolity. All this time, I thought I’d taken the proposals very seriously and really searched my soul, carefully considering the difference between loving someone and truly believing that I could make a life-long commitment to them. All this time, I’d been under the impression that I had put my own feelings aside to examine my relationships, what it would mean to be a wife, and if I would be a good partner to the men who’d asked for my hand.
Turns out, it may have all just been a glut of internet porn and reality TV.
I’ll have to be sure and tell my fiance.
And, as I said, women in reality generally take on far more than 50% of the work in a marriage. So… yeah, that might have something to do with them “falling out of love and getting bored”. Maybe women decide that being someone’s mommy is not compatible with being their lover. Crazy, I know, but women don’t biologically enjoy cleaning toilets, doing laundry, and maintaining outside relationships (the card-sending, party-throwing, sick-person visiting that women are always supposed to take care of). a
Protip: blockquoting someone’s argument and then repeating the same shit they were responding to does not constitute a counterargument.
I turned down a proposal at 19. Oh how I rue the day! How could I do that to the poor, intelligent, decent man who wanted to marry me?
I guess the guy who later asked me to marry him (who I said “yes” to) should be thankful that I was such a horrible person when I was younger, huh?
Yeah, and it’s funny, but I don’t recall spending the twenty-plus years before Mr Kittehs’ and I finally got together running around moaning about the state of modern dating, or doing the whole “I must have a relationship with a man, any man who’s decent!” thing. I had a fair bit of that shit thrown at me by people who couldn’t fathom a woman not feeling she was Missing Out, or couldn’t believe that I Didn’t Want Children. But the idea of a relationship with anyone but Mr K? Grotesque, horrible, repellent.
There is no evidence, other than MRA, PUA, MGTOW anec-data that proves that women initiate more breakups. The statistics on women initiating divorce with greater frequency are true but, essentially worthless. I know women who initiated divorce because there husbands were abusive drug addicts. And I know women who initiated divorce because their husbands left them and refused to file. I know one woman who initiated divorce because she stopped being in love with her husband. But she didn’t wake up one day and decide “I don’t love him anymore. I think I’ll file for divorce and see how much money I can get!” It was difficult, painful, and preceded by two years of counseling and attempts to make the marriage work. It was not capricious. It wasn’t because she was “bored.” She stopped loving her husband.
It wasn’t fair to either of them.
You sit there and talk about personal responsibility and the need to develop empathy. What do you know about the women who initiate divorce proceedings? You talk about “in sickness and in health…” but never mention that men are far more likely to leave/divorce a partner who is diagnosed with a serious illness.
The only person here lamenting the decline and/or delay of traditional marriage is you. And you’re still placing the blame on women.
Wholly unoriginal.
As unlikely as it is given the sexism, if Bob has the same standards for himself that he does for women (if someone intelligent and decent who you kind of like wants to marry you then for fuck’s sake say yes or you will rue the day!), then I would feel terribly sorry for him.
Anyone reading along and lurking – you can and should aim higher than that.
Well, as you know Cassandra, when a man’s marriage proposal is declined his life is essentially over. I’ve kept in close contact with the two men whose lives I ruined. And despite their subsequent, relationships, marriages, children, promotions, fun vacations, etc., I know that they’re just empty shells.
But don’t you feel bad, Nobinayamu? Why, if you’d said yes like a proper woman would then one of those men could have spent the rest of his life in a mediocre relationship with a woman who wasn’t really happy being with him, rather than moving on to find the woman who was right for him. And you deprived both of them of that possibility.
Think about what you’ve done, young lady.
That’s another thing, for me – the idea of having someone I don’t really, really love being physically intimate. Purely a personal feeling, but it takes the whole “marry a decent intelligent bloke if he asks regardless of how you feel” thing from awful to skin-crawling-horrible. And y’know, somehow I doubt I’m the only person who’s ever felt that way.
And yet, despite the specificity with which you detail what men want from relationships, you still argued that women should accept marriage proposals from who are “intelligent” and of “good character.” You can’t ret-con your clear double-standard.
And I don’t concede that women are less mature men. Hell, I don’t concede that anyone of any gender, is obligated to “grow up.” That’s your shit.