Over on A Voice for Men, the paramount meeting place for the brave warriors of the Leading Human Rights Movement of the 21st Century, a commenter calling himself Laddition has some uncharacteristically kind words to say about feminists (in this thread). Well, “kind” may not be the right word for it. But Laddition tells us that as awful as the awful feminists are, they’re not quite as bad as are … the rest of the world’s women. Sorry, the “rest of the fem-herd.” He explains:
Naturally, the readers of A Voice for Men greeted these pearls of wisdom with upvotes.
Oh, and while we’re on the topic, can someone explain GirlWritesWhat and TyphonBlue and the rest of AVFM’s little FemMRA, er, herd to me again? What exactly draws women to hang out with, and make 45 minute-long videos on the behalf of, dudes who not only hate women but who offer new proof of this hatred on a daily basis?
fuckin’ blockquotes
@ hellkell
This. Is what. She. Told. Me.
For all I fucking know it was 3 or 4 friends who were excited about getting their shirts in the mail or some shit and decided to wear ’em out to boast or whatever. I’m sure it wasn’t some kind of fucking AVfM planned meet-up or some shit.
Hell… I never thought to ask… does AVfM even have shirts?
I read this website all the time but I’ve only commented once or twice before. Had to jump in on this though.
@blitzgal
I starting calling myself a feminist as soon as I knew what the word meant. I’ve read a lot of feminist material over the years, and I agree with most of it. I always disagreed with anti-sex work feminists, but I knew that not all feminists are anti-sex work and continued to identify myself as a feminist.
And then I became a sex worker.
I stopped reading a lot of the feminist sites I used to enjoy because it was impossible to discuss sex work without a chorus of people calling me a self-deluding handmaiden of the patriarchy with no idea of what it was like to be a REAL sex worker, i.e. one who fit their political views better. I was (and still am) interested in discussing sex work from a feminist perspective, but in seeking that out I got exposed to some hateful, hateful stuff, some from very mainstream feminists, and it felt very dehumanizing.
I now go back and forth on whether I identify as a feminist, but even when the answer is yes, it’s a qualified yes. I totally understand where Nathan’s stripper friend is coming from. I’ve discussed this with other sex workers as well, and even those who still firmly identify as feminists understand where I’m coming from. A lot of them feel the same way I do.
I’ve followed sex worker activism for years, and I’ve definitely noticed the same pattern occurring among the more high profile sex worker activists. They start off as staunch feminists, receive abuse from other feminists, and eventually disavow the label without actually changing any of their political views.
So yeah, I don’t see anything suspicious about Nathan’s stripper friends, and while they might be statistically insignificant they do reflect a common trend.
They have a store with a few t-shirt designs, bumper stickers, and mugs.
Get huffy all you want Nathan.
Not worth-it, hellkell. I just finished doing my own mix of Led Zeppelin’s “Ramble On” in ProTools and it is awesome. Having people accuse me of lying about a boring, statistically insignificant anecdote cannot deflate my utter joy at having completed this mix. I have the regular track, and backing tracks for vocals, lead guitar, lead guitar & vocals, bass, and drums.
For Led Zeppelin’s “Ramble On”. Because I have the Multitrack Stems (Google it).
I’ll be working on “What is and What Should Never Be”, then “Heartbreaker”, then redoing “Whole Lotta Love” because I’m not happy with my initial mix of that.
I am very slowly learning how to become a producer. I feel amazing right now. Overjoyed, in fact. This…
This is a good day.
Wow. What a classic derail.
I’d say Nathan has lost the assumption of good faith at this point.
But he’s too busy slaughtering Zep on Pro Tools to care what we think.
Why? Because I’m numb to being called a liar?
Thanks.
I’ll be sure to remember that in the future. I’ll make sure I refrain from saying anything ever anywhere.
It doesn’t necessarily mean you identify as a feminist, but it does mean you’re acting like one and agreeing with the movement’s core tenets, and feminist is as feminist does.
(By “you” I don’t actually mean you, of course, because you love misogyny and hang out with assholes.)
Nathan, honey, get off the cross. Someone may need the wood.
Actually, hellkell, I’m on a chair. But if I find a cross I’ll be sure to lend it to someone in need.
I’m sorry.
The derail and getting huffy was a jerk move and completely uncalled. I’ve always had anger-management issues and I should know better than to post what I did.
I apologize for it.
Right. Just because some people think blacks shouldn’t be able to vote, go to college or own property, that doesn’t mean such people hate blacks. I mean come on, that would be a silly conclusion to come to.
I don’t find his stripper friends suspicious. I find his motivations for coming into a thread where the OP has literally called all women a mindless herd of animals to discuss how terribly “Feminists” treat sex workers to be suspicious.
And not only did the OP call all women a mindless herd of animals but he also made it clear that women should not even be able to vote and should just leave society to men, who are obviously superior in every capacity. Nathan’s derail obviously serves to uphold the OP’s opinion that “Feminists” are awful people who are ruining the world.
I’ve gotten into many arguments with radical feminists about pornography, prostitution, even blow jobs. I know perfectly well what they say. My primary problem with the industry is with the trafficking of children, the abuse of the mentally ill and the abuse of those with substance abuse problems. Anything that is done between enthusiastically consenting adults is fine by me.
I still believe that Nathan is here in good faith, he just got flustered and said some busted stuff. It happens when you’re still examining the nooks and crannies of your privilege.
JB is absolutely not here in good faith.
And agreed on the point that hating on porn and sex work was absolutely a banner proudly displayed by the second wave. Modern feminism is much better about it.
Inurashii, I don’t know if I would call that derail (and lard knows we are famous for going OT around here) was case of being flustered. He came in with NOTHING BUT that busted stuff. Third comment and it had fuckall to do with the OP.
‘Scuse me, fifth comment, and he even announced he wasn’t gonna talk about FeMRAs. He should have just said, “HEY GUISE! I have stripper friends.” Which would have been better without the digs at “Feminism.”
I admit I have difficulties being pro-sex work as a feminist, because the number of women who freely choose to do it (on a global scale) is small compared to the number of women and children who are forced/sold/coerced into it. And I’m unsure how to solve the latter problem without affecting the former, though making things completely illegal has had very little impact on stopping them either (see “abortion”). I want to support choice but I’m at a loss as to policy and law in this case.
That said, I have never told anyone who did sex work that they were a bad feminist or a bad person or betraying the cause or what have you. But then I’m a third-waver.
As for the OP, I’m calling bullshit on women under 30 not understanding that the male POV (I’m assuming that’s what he meant by “frame”) differs wildly from their own. I taught college students for 10 years. The women absolutely knew that men did not see the world the same way they did. That message has been ingrained in them since birth. It was the male* students who usually got a shock when they started to glimpse what the female* frame was and how incredibly different it was from their own. I just hope that shock stuck with some of them.
(* – male or female identifying, which are not the only options, obvs.)
FWIW I’ve seen Nathan comment here before a few times and think he is here in good faith. The stripper derail was a bit oddly placed but I don’t necessarily think it was wrong or malicious.
Yeah, I noticed him on a Captain Awkward thread earlier and he seems OK. But what a weird place to insert the discussion that I guess he wanted to have.
Okay.
My initial post here was a meta attempt to answer the question Dave Futrelle posed in the OP.
It was not an attempt to attack feminism. I generally try to avoid *deliberately* attacking feminism seeing as feminism is one of the only ways Patriarchy and, ultimately, Kyriarchy, will ever get shut down… and the Men’s Rights Movement can go fuck itself.
Obviously, it was a pathetically piss-poor answer. Obviously, I misread the question. I failed at that. I never claimed to be good at writing. In fact, I think my blog kinda proves that I’m pretty much shit at writing.
I’m sorry.
Take in the feedback, man, process it, let it pass through you and grow from it. No need to condemn yourself; nobody wants or needs that.