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High on a hill was a lonely fem-herd

Over on A Voice for Men, the paramount meeting place for the brave warriors of the Leading Human Rights Movement of the 21st Century, a commenter calling himself Laddition has some uncharacteristically kind words to say about feminists (in this thread). Well, “kind” may not be the right word for it. But Laddition tells us that as awful as the awful feminists are, they’re not quite as bad as are … the rest of the world’s women. Sorry, the “rest of the fem-herd.” He explains:

 

 

 

Naturally, the readers of A Voice for Men greeted these pearls of wisdom with upvotes.

Oh, and while we’re on the topic, can someone explain GirlWritesWhat and TyphonBlue and the rest of AVFM’s little FemMRA, er, herd to me again? What exactly draws women to hang out with, and make 45 minute-long videos on the behalf of, dudes who not only hate women but who offer new proof of this hatred on a daily basis?

 

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clairedammit
clairedammit
7 years ago

The average age of women giving birth for the first time in the U.S. is 25. So who are these women over 35 with “baby rabies”?

gratuitous_violet
gratuitous_violet
7 years ago

I think Andrea Dworkin explained FeMRAs quite well in Right Wing Women. These women know damn well that men hate them too and think just as lowly of them as other women, but the “I’m the exception!” fantasy sure is a sweet lullaby if you’d rather pretend like misogyny doesn’t exist.

Honestly, I’ve always suspected some women do that because otherwise they’d be crushed by the totality of our collective misogyny. Not that it makes that stance any less reprehensible, but I do sympathize a bit.

Pear_tree
Pear_tree
7 years ago

A while ago there was a story about a man who jumped into a tiger enclosure and was mauled. The zoo and tiger didn’t get in trouble as the man had gone to considerable effort to get into the enclosure. The man was therefore considered responsible for what happened to him.

I think MRA women see the male/female relations that way. Men are going to behave a certain way, that can’t be changed. It is therefore women’s job to take that into account with their own actions. Men need pacifying and women who fail at that will suffer. It seems like misandary to me though.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

I think the Manosphere has probably collectively outdone the entire mid- to late-1990s in its use of the word “grrrl” and its variants. It’s very effective at conveying their obnoxiousness, their spite, and their backwardness all at once.

Nathan Hevenstone
7 years ago

I won’t comment on women like GirlWritesWhat nd TyphonBlue and so on, but I have read that a lot of women in the sex industry really hate what they see as an anti-sex-industry streak in some feminist thought.

I remember reading a blog post (or maybe a comment on a blog post?) a while back by a feminist describing how shocked she was at how Feminism was viewed in the sex industry. She had assumed that most of these women would be feminists, but each time she noted, no matter how passively, that she was a feminist, the sex workers (pretty much all women, according to her) would ask her things like “if you have such a problem with the sex industry, why are you talking to us”, and when she clarified that she does *not* have such a problem, and in fact supports sex workers rights, they would respond with some variation of “then why the hell are you a Feminist”. After describing herself as a “Sex-Positive Feminist”, they would then proceed to tell her that this could not exist.

I do remember back when I was “active” on YouTube (more as commentator than anything else)… there were a few women who called themselves Feminists who would post videos attacking YouTubers like Laci Green for “showing too much cleavage” and so on.

I also know a couple strippers who are like the sex workers mentioned above, too. If you talk to them, they sound exactly like Feminists. Both are atheists (obviously there’s not a direct connection between the two… plenty of theists are feminists, as well), and they actually agree that there’s a sexism/misogyny within the atheist community. They both like Schrodinger’s Rapist, they accept the evidence of Rape Culture, Patriarchy, and Kyriarchy, they hate being hit on outside of their work…

They would fit in amazingly well with those of us at Atheism+, in fact.

But they refuse to call themselves Feminists because, and I quote one of them directly: “Feminists hate me. I’m a stripper. According to Feminists, I feed into the Patriarchy, making me a big part of the problem. Because sex work of any kind is wrong. Because we women are apparently not allowed to use our sexuality in any way, shape, or form. I dance and take off my clothes for men. So what if there’s a grand total of zero contact between me and a customer, even in private dances? So what if I have a boyfriend and we have a monogamous, loving relationship? I dance and take off my clothes for men, who pay me to do it. Feminists see me as a bad, evil woman, making things harder for them. Why would I support that?”

I asked about sex-positive Feminism, and the response was thus: “no such thing. It’s an oxy-moron.”

I brought up Greta Christina, and they are, as far as I know, checking her out.

I’m obviously not saying that GirlWritesWhat and TyphonBlue are sex workers. Like I said… I can’t comment on those two. I’m just relaying what I’ve experienced, either second-hand or first-hand.

I should note that neither of those two women I know are FeMRAs (they hate the whole MRM thing as much, if not more: one of them told me about how she once had a group of guys walk in, all of them sporting shirts advertising A Voice for Men; she refused to even acknowledge their existence, which actually pissed a couple of them off, but luckily she has an boss that stood up for her against them and kicked them out).

Again, I’m relaying my of course quite statistically insignificant experience. I should point out that you did ask. :p

aworldanonymous
7 years ago

What is it with the right wing and applying absolutes to fucking everything? It shouldn’t take much thought to see that a lot of issues have a sensitive gray area, should it?

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
7 years ago

“…just has no idea how different the masculine frame is to theirs.”

What the hell is he on about? Men and women being built differently? What’s that got to do with anything? Or is he pulling the same line as one of our late unlamented trolls (and the caveman reference makes me think he is) in saying men are naturally violent, unfaithful, etc etc, because they are physically built in such-and-such a way?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Some of the rants these guys come up with are starting to sound more and more like bad acid trips. Seriously, WTF is he on about, and would it make more sense if the reader was high?

The only way this particular rant makes any sense is if we assume that by “frame” he doesn’t mean body type but way of seeing the world, and he’s just too poor a writer to make that clear. Not that the rant would then make sense, but it would be on a standard level of MRA weirdness rather than a look-I-can-fly-and-also-hear-colors-and-the-chair-is-talking-to-me level of acid-induced babble.

aim33
7 years ago

“Feminists see me as a bad, evil woman, making things harder for them. Why would I support that?”

I have NEVER heard a feminist, no matter how radical, describe a stripper or sex worker as a “bad, evil woman”. I have, on the other hand, heard plenty of conservative and religious types do this. Wake up to yourself, women (and Nathan).

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
7 years ago

Yeah, I wondered if that’s what he meant – and wouldn’t it be typical of the manosphere’s collective inabilty to grasp that words have meanings for him to misuse it that way? “Masculine frame” says “male body/skeletal structure/musculature” to me. I has a niggling suspicion I’m not alone in that. But no, this pillock can’t be bothered/hasn’t the nous to say “masculine mental outlook” or “worldview” or whatever. Not that there is such a thing, but try telling MRAs that people aren’t hiveminds.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
7 years ago

PS is that the misandrist chair that’s talking to him?

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
7 years ago

Mostly it just comes off as sour grapes from a d00d who refuses to accept that those women actually did GTOW and liked it. It must be unpossible! It simply has to be!

Molly Moon
Molly Moon
7 years ago

@cassandrasays:

would it make more sense if the reader was high?

Nope

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
7 years ago

They can’t very well come right out and call it what it is. The abusers world view. Too many people know exactly what that is.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

You think this shit is confusing normally, try reading it when you’ve just been abruptly woken from a nap by a friend knocking on your door like I was. My brain kept trying to force it to make sense using normal people logic, and then I remembered that an MRA wrote it and gave up.

leeloodm
leeloodm
7 years ago

Does Fem-Shepard watch over the Fem-Herd?

leeloodm
leeloodm
7 years ago

With these guys it’s either “all men as desperately lonely, and women won’t have them” or “all women are desperately lonely, and men won’t have them”, and yet somehow people in the real world continue to have sex, get in relationships and have kids.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
7 years ago

GWW is an even bigger woman-hater than Elam, which is quite an accomplishment.

Happy
Happy
7 years ago

GWW andTyphonBLue are but from the same cloth as JtO. The only platform where their ridiculous theories would be given any (positive) attention is the MRM. Therefore, it is to the MRM that they gravitate.

kysokisaen
7 years ago

Yo-de-le yo-de-le yo-de-le hee-hoo!

Dammit. Now I’ve got The Sound of Music in my head.

blitzgal
7 years ago

@Nathan: I have a hard time believing most of what you’ve written and I question your motives (your insistence on capitalizing Feminists is just one reason I’m suspicious), but a few points:

1) The slut-shaming of women is a common function of a patriarchal society. That includes the shaming of sex workers as well as the more ordinary shaming of women as you’ve described in You Tube comments. There are indeed feminists who feel that the sex industry is exploitative of women, but the type of comments you’re talking about sound like they were said back in the 1980’s. Feminists today are much more likely to discuss issues of sex trafficking, child prostitution and other criminal facets of the sex industry which are in fact still extremely exploitative of women and children.

2) You may know “a few strippers who say xyz” but so do I. In fact, I went to school with a woman who stripped to pay her way through college — and she was an outspoken feminist who was in several of my women’s studies classes. What does this mean? It means nothing. Individuals have opinions and anecdotes are not data.

3) Many women are wary of calling themselves feminists because it’s turned into an insult, much the way that liberal has. For most young women, there was never a time when the word “feminazi” did not exist in our popular culture, for instance.

Sweet Dreams 893
Sweet Dreams 893
7 years ago

I think some of the MRA women have miserable personal lives and Paul Elam and JtO see them as very useful for their ends and so they feel important. As long as they are willing to be used, Elam and JtO will use them. As for GWW, she is a lot like Elam and JtO as far as their narcissism. They all love to hear themselves talk and drone on and on and on and on and on. I’ve watched a couple of videos for each one a long time ago. They’re boors – all of them.

Sweet Dreams 893
Sweet Dreams 893
7 years ago

Also…I’m not convinced that GWW is actually a girl.

cendare
7 years ago

Does Fem-Shepard watch over the Fem-Herd?

Ooooh! Can it be my FemShep? She was pretty bad-ass by ME3 and I think she could do a good job leading us.

judgybitch
7 years ago

Uhm, maybe it’s because the MRA doesn’t hate women?

They hate feminism as a political ideology, to be certain. But surely you don’t believe that hating feminism is the same as hating women? Not all women are feminists. A sizable number of women do NOT identify as feminists. Saying that the MRA hates women because they hate a specific political ideology is like saying all Mormons are republicans because Mitt Romney is, or that disagreeing with Romney’s political beliefs means you hate Mormons.

Silliness.

blitzgal
7 years ago

Judgy, you are disingenuous at best. MRAs routinely express violent rhetoric about women. There is an example of this a mere two threads ago on this very blog.

whataboutthemoonz
7 years ago

I’m starting a movement and calling it Women Going Their Own Way And Sometimes Men Are There Too But Only If They Don’t Suck Like MRAs And Gender Queer People Can Come Too And We Have All The Internet Kitties So Hah.

I think I’ll call it basic human decency for short.

whataboutthemoonz
7 years ago

Judgybitch has been here before and is most likely not here in good faith. FYI.

Falconer
7 years ago

Does Fem-Shepard watch over the Fem-Herd?

OH GOD please tell me BioWare didn’t name hir Shepard because the Federation-expy galactic government is made up of sheeple. Please. I want to think better of BioWare than that they’re people who use the word sheeple seriously.

Kakanian
Kakanian
7 years ago

>Uhm, maybe it’s because the MRA doesn’t hate women?

Psch, go read some of their blogs. They’re writing plenty about how terrible women in general are.

Podkayne
7 years ago

@leeloodm “With these guys it’s either “all men as desperately lonely, and women won’t have them because women suck” or “all women are desperately lonely, and men won’t have them because women suck””

Wanted to add that important bit to your already great analysis

judgybitch
7 years ago

@whataboutthemoonz

What constitutes good faith? I love women and obviously hate misogyny. Who is FOR misogny? That’s like being pro-child abuse, and some people ARE (hello religious wingnuts), but hating misogny does not automatically equal loving feminism.

Anyone can read my blog, just like anyone can read this one.

Creative Writing Student
Creative Writing Student
7 years ago

Also…I’m not convinced that GWW is actually a girl.

They post Youtube videos hosted by someone who appears to be of the female persuasion. It’s either GWW or someone who the writer-GWW gets to be the face of GWW. Given how much the MRM distrust women, why would someone posting to an audience of MRAs pretend to be female?

Shiraz
Shiraz
7 years ago

I always had a hard time understanding how some people are all, “I love women, misogyny is bad, but feminism? Ewwwww.” I have to assume what they know about the movement came from someone who hates or misunderstands the movement.

Nathan Hevenstone
7 years ago

@ aim33… it honestly took me by surprise, too. I haven’t heard back from them after mentioning Greta Christina, so we’ll see. But that’s the impression they had.

@ blitzgal… *sigh* I can’t make you believe me. You don’t have to if you don’t want to.

Sorry for capitalizing the “f” in feminism. I’m used to doing it, and never had anyone mention it until now. I’ll change that going forward.

1. I know this. I wasn’t relating what I thought… I was relating what I’ve been told. Two different things.

2. Hence why I called that post my “statistically insignificant experience”. “Statistically insignificant” were the operative words, there. I wanted to answer Dave’s question to the best of my abilities, and I can only do that with anecdotes since… you know… I’ve never conducted a statistical study on this kind of thing and wouldn’t know where to begin even if I wanted to. My interests as an Anthropology student are in fanaticism and modern music culture, not FeMRAs.

Also, for the record, I also know strippers who call themselves feminists… but I only “know” them from online interaction.

3. I’m also well aware of that.

@ judgybitch… Have you ever *read* the Men’s Rights subreddit or A Voice for Men? How can *anybody* read those places and still say “they don’t hate women”? Examples are all over Manboobz. You should look.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
7 years ago

There cannot be a negotiated reversal of the arms race, it’s going to end badly. And when push comes to shove, after the financial meldown / zombie ‘pocalypse / too many men just ghosting or underworking, I know who I think is going to be the sex in power.

I, for one, welcome our new zombie feminist overladies.

Oh, and while we’re on the topic, can someone explain GirlWritesWhat and TyphonBlue and the rest of AVFM’s little FemMRA, er, herd to me again? What exactly draws women to hang out with, and make 45 minute-long videos on the behalf of, dudes who not only hate women but who offer new proof of this hatred on a daily basis?

They’re good women, unless all those other yucky feminist women. They even get invited to the super secret misogyny treehouse with the “No gurlz allowed” sign.

blitzgal
7 years ago

Okay Judgy, let’s look at the OP right here, then. Quote: “the bigger problem for society is the rest of the fem-herd.” In discussing non-feminists, he literally refers to them as a herd of chattel, and decrees that they are even more dangerous than feminists. Nope, no hatred there.

Magnesium
Magnesium
7 years ago

Awww, Judgy. The first line in the quoted text of this post proves you wrong. You should probably read a post before you comment on it. You’re adorable, though, keep it up. <3

leftwingfox
7 years ago

blitzgal: I think your point 1 is answered by point 3: If they already have a distorted view of feminism, then they’re less likely to voluntarily wade through current feminist thought, and more likely to buy distortions from other anti-feminists distorting current views. Same sort of reality bubble we see in Fox News Conservatives. Local pockets are also more likely to share views socially for similar conclusions.

I think his solution to the issue he stated, pointing out Greta Christina’s work, is an excellent one.

ithiliana
7 years ago

I just have to say: TITLE OF THIS POST? WIN!

*listens happily to Julie Andrews singing in my head*

I HEARTZ Julie Andrews.

Zanana
Zanana
7 years ago

@Nathan, the part of that story that I found hard to believe was the idea that MRAs get together and go to strip clubs in their AVFM t-shirts and that the strippers see their t-shirts and know what they mean by them. In college, I used to go places with friends wearing things to advertise our internet subcultures, but we really had no illusions about other people recognizing or caring what we were trying to advertise. It seems like a long shot that anyone would.

re: the OP, “until the herd wakes up and realizes how much feminists actually care about their real interests…”

What real interests are those? And whose interests are feminists supporting instead?? Equal pay and health care and bodily autonomy are elitist feminist interests? whereas real world fem-herd interests are…. what exactly?!

Leeloo Dallas Multipass

@Falconer

I thought it was symbolic of the fact that you’re gathering all these people up and keeping them together. Which I guess is sort of comparing them to sheep, sort of, but I saw it as more the ‘protection and guidance’ kind of shepard than the ‘you sheep are too dumb to think for yourselves’ kind of shepard.

I really like BioWare too… I couldn’t get past the weird combat system in Dragon Age: Origins but I got Dragon Age II the other day and I love it.

lauralot89
7 years ago

I wonder what it’s like to hold a conversation with MRAs in real life. How does it go? Do they wear their hatred and misogyny right out on their sleeve, or do they hold it back until you’re in a conversation and suddenly they’re talking about fem-herds and cock carousels and it’s like in a horror movie when the protagonist realizes they’re talking to the serial killer but instead of a serial killer it’s an asshole on the Internet and instead of a torture chamber in the basement, it’s thousands of AVFM posts?

Nathan Hevenstone
7 years ago

@Zanana Fair enough. I never confirmed the truth of that. It’s what she told me. It doesn’t surprise me that she specifically knows what A Voice for Men is, though, as she’s ranted about them in the past. *She* recognized the shirts. Whether anyone else did or not I have no idea.

A Lovely Squid
7 years ago

I’d just like to jump in and mention that I’m a feminist who also happens to be a sex-worker. I am in the UK, I think possibly we have different laws over some aspects of sex-work, for a start my particular part in it is legal – I’m an escort which is perfectly above board in the eyes of the law. Nobody coerced me, or twisted my arm, or made me feel bad about my choice to do this. I think there’s a lot of confusion between coercion and trafficking and someone’s personal choice. Us whores ain’t all on crack and being controlled by pimps. I’m independent and drug-free. Woohoo for me, or something!

I know a fair few other feminist sex-workers of differing genders. I’m not sure if it’s an across-the-pond thing as to how sex-workers are often viewed by others, so apologies if I’ve been confused by cross-pond-sex-worker-politics.

whataboutthemoonz
7 years ago

Good faith would be coming to a blog devoted to mocking misogyny and NOT defending misogynists, maybe, especially on a blog post in which the people you are defending explicitly say things which are obviously misogyny to anyone who knows what that word means.

McKenzie
McKenzie
7 years ago

> Also…I’m not convinced that GWW is actually a girl.
Um, can we maybe assume that if people say they’re a gender that they actually are that gender, it’s just that it’s a common way to deny trans identities.

(also not sure how to do blockquotes hopefully this is it)

PsychoDan
7 years ago

Saying that the MRA hates women because they hate a specific political ideology is like saying all Mormons are republicans because Mitt Romney is

It’s funny pick this as an example, since there are far more republicans among Mormons than any other religious group in the country. The difference, of course, is that liberal Mormons can’t simply walk away from their church and hold on to their religious beliefs. There’s nothing comparable keeping MRAs that don’t hate women in that den of misogynists. They’d have to think that feminism was so incredibly awful that it was worth immersing themselves in all that hatred just to rail against it.

jennydevildoll
7 years ago

“Feminists see me as a bad, evil woman, making things harder for them. Why would I support that?”

I have NEVER heard a feminist, no matter how radical, describe a stripper or sex worker as a “bad, evil woman”. I have, on the other hand, heard plenty of conservative and religious types do this. Wake up to yourself, women (and Nathan).

I haven’t heard it couched in those terms, but I’ve heard a few older, second-wave era feminists be negative towards them. I remember actually (at the time I was a stripper) speaking on a local feminist radio show from that perspective.Before we went on the air, one of the other guests told me “I don’t support the mayor’s treatment of you, but I want you to know that I’m opposed to what you’re doing and think it harms the feminist movement as a whole.” This was on the heels of a spate of police abuses.

But agreed, it’s important to know these are NOT the opinions of all feminists.

elodieunderglass
7 years ago

A Brief Epidemiology:

Ginatingles
MRA MRSA (Staphylocockitup aureus)
Foot-in-mouth
Vampirism
Squealiac
Fungus, Mysterious
“baby rabies”

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