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“As men, Force is the greatest weapon we have … We must use it,” says racist manosphere asshat.

More thoughts on the election from the Manosphere. These are from the comments section of Chateau Heartiste, in response to that little manifesto from Mark Minter we talked about the other day, and which Minter also posted at the Chateau.

Here John Salt suggests that “force” works better than voting.  And, oh yeah, he’s also as racist as Hitler.

Here Sidewinder offers some “optimism” for the future:

You’ll notice that no one there voices opposition to any of these sentiments.

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magpie
8 years ago

Awwwww! tiny, tiny, baby blue eyes and little claws

dualityheart
8 years ago

These guys are aware that we have this thing called law that prohibits people from assaulting others without legal consequences, right?

And I also hope that they are aware that if they take up arms and start an actual WAR against women and minority groups, that said groups have the means and ability to defend themselves appropriately. For all their bluster about how women have no idea how to use guns or fight in wars, I would say that many women, simply from having to spend every day living in a pervasive rape culture, have developed at least some basic self-defense skills. Many people who are not white, privileged heterosexual cis males have to live in a culture where they constantly have to assess if someone is going to try and assault and/or kill them at any given time. We are used to being hated and treated like we are lesser, but if there was an actual clear “this is war” declaration from these jerks, I could see an organized push back against them.

As it is, these predators and shitheads continue to operate in the gray spaces- victimizing and isolating individual people and causing intense and long-lasting trauma like the nasty Darth Vader cowards they are. If only they openly called a war- then at least we’d know their faces and their names and know in advance that they were coming for us. As it is, they meld into every facet of everyday life, so that it’s often hard to know who they are until it’s too late.

Historophilia
Historophilia
8 years ago

Sorry to derail from kittehs but I felt people needed to see this 🙁 possible trigger warning for miscarriage, denied abortion and generally everything being fucked up:

http://jezebel.com/5960385/woman-denied-abortion-dies-in-hospital?post=54267244

This has really upset me, sorry if it does the same for anyone else. I feel it’s important that we know when these things happen though, so we can throw them in the faces of pro-birthers and say “This is what happens when you deny women the control of their own bodies.”

Fuck everything right now.

dualityheart
8 years ago

It DISTURBS ME TO A MASSIVE DEGREE that a DYING FETUS is given the right over a woman’s bodily autonomy in any corner of the world.

The worst part? A woman can be willingly pregnant, want to have a baby, and STILL DIE because of shit like this. Then, what, we have two dead beings- the fetus is not helped by forcing the woman to stay pregnant until she dies, and a fully living, multi-dimensional PERSON- the woman.

In the US, there are some states that have laws on the books that can charge the woman with manslaughter or negligent homicide if she miscarries late in the pregnancy or doesn’t get into the hospital soon enough because she missed doing kick counts and did not notice reduced fetal movement until it was too late. Imagine being horrified that your wanted baby was not only dead but you could face HARD PRISON TIME for the death?

Remember, if a woman aborts, miscarries or gives birth to a stillborn, she is still able to get pregnant in the future in most cases. She does not have to die just because the fetus did. And she is still alive. If a woman is not allowed to abort safely when she needs said procedure, she will pay with her health or her life. Exactly why is this so hard for people to get their heads around? Pregnancy and childbirth is hard and dangerous. It literally sucks some of your own life out of you to grow a new person. A woman should have absolute veto power when it comes to HER OWN BODY, no ifs ands or buts.

And I say this as a woman who has birthed two wanted babies.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Part of the issue here seems to be that the people who romanticize pregnancy and childbirth refuse to accept that there are always going to be some pregnancies that end tragically. Miscarriage happens, fetal abnormalities can be fatal, sometimes a fetus dies in the womb, some fetal abnormalities can result in a live birth but with a baby that will die in great pain very soon afterwards. No matter what you do, some fetuses just aren’t going to make it. These kinds of laws seem to be in part an attempt to stick their fingers in their ears and ignore that cold, hard medical fact.

(This is even if you ignore the fact that forced pregnancy and childbirth is a horrifying thing in itself, and shouldn’t be acceptable in any society.)

reymohammed
reymohammed
8 years ago

Part of the problem is that, in their extreme malice, misogynists see both sex and pregnancy as a way to control and punish women. “Game” them, rape them, impregnate them against their will, force them to carry to term…and then, if you can make the woman die in agony while killing the hated creature’s “fruit” anyway, you’ve really scored. Make every woman live in fear and loathing of her vulva and vagina and womb. That’s how to get even with half your ancestors for putting you here!

reymohammed
reymohammed
8 years ago

I’d add, Duality, that simply from constant work in the kitchen, even women who are unwilling to pack heat are uncommonly used to knives and even cleavers, and quite a few are familiar with machetes as well.

reymohammed
reymohammed
8 years ago

And as for domestic abusers, I’ve known more than one Southern woman to remind her husband, “Just remember you have to sleep.”

(At one time under Texas law, prior to no-fault divorce, a husband was allowed one adultery, but a wife was allowed one aggravated battery)

Creative Writing Student
Creative Writing Student
8 years ago

If you can’t “ethically” perform a medical abortion to save someone’s life or wellbeing, don’t take the hippocratic oath.

I personally would not feel safe in a hospital where doctors were allowed to refuse patients necessary treatment because of their religious beliefs (which the patient may not share).

Myoo
Myoo
8 years ago

Exactly why is this so hard for people to get their heads around? Pregnancy and childbirth is hard and dangerous.

I think they don’t believe that pregnancy is hard, they think the only part that may be bad is the birth itself and even then, they have no idea just how bad it can get.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

I saw someone trying to explain just how terrifying this is to a dude on Facebook today. She said “it’s like being refused a blood transfusion because the doctor’s a Jehovah’s Witness”. It’s a good analogy.

Oh and EW, some guys talking about this story have made me want to full on rage. “Normally I don’t agree with abortion but this is shocking”. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE DON’T AGREE WITH ABORTION YOU BLOODY NINCOMPOOP. “Well do we know for sure the sceptacemia was caused by the refusal to abort?” NO THIS IS ALL JUST A COINCIDENCE, HER HAVING DYING FOREIGN TISSUE INSIDE HER WOULD SURELY HAVE ONLY CAUSED HER TO FART RAINBOWS.

Sorry for the rant, but I just can NOT deal with this. If anyone wants to help in the slightest way, I’d recommend (if you can) donating to the Abortion Support Network, a charity that helps people from Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland (financially and emotionally) to travel to England if they need an abortion. Unfortunately it wouldn’t have saved this woman but it could save another person in future.

Historophilia
Historophilia
8 years ago

Thenatfantastic, I feel what you feel. I read this in the morning just before intending to embark on an essay and it just threw me off so much that I just sat in the library staring out the window trying not to cry, or swear loudly or something.

I’ve very seldom been affected by a news story quite as much as this. She looks so much like so many women that I and my family know.

One thing though, I think that we as feminists and pro-choicers should be careful that we don’t use this poor woman and her story too much as a symbol. She was a real woman and her real family is suffering now, we shouldn’t hijack their pain and exploit it, nothing could be worse.

blitzgal
8 years ago

Crap, I mentioned the s-word and got moderated. My post:

if white men care to do anything as a group to resurrect their good society, they must talk less and be more violent

What “good society?” Feudalism, where a choice few people had all the power while the vast multitudes lived in squalor? Sl-very, where a choice few people had all the power while the vast multitudes lived in squalor? Colonialism, where a choice few people had all the power….okay, you see where this is going. These guys lashing out were never the kings. They were the peasants, just like all the women and minorities they hate. In a functioning democracy (ours still needs some work, imo), they have far more power than they would have historically. In short, these racist assholes are fucking stupid.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

BigMomma: the kitten is adorable. Am ded from cute.

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

I’m calling it now, deodorant is the troll who doesn’t use quotes. (Was that Pell?)

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

Nah, it’s been 12 hours since he posted. If Pell posts and doesn’t get a reaction he just carries on posting until we tell him to fuck off.

Creative Writing Student
Creative Writing Student
8 years ago

There are a *lot* of trolls who don’t use quotes… or grammar… or logic…

Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
8 years ago

“if white men care to do anything as a group to resurrect their good society, they must talk less and be more violent”

Why are they so angry?

Seriously, they need to take a course on positive thinking. The reason they are so miserable is because they are willing it with their own minds. It doesn’t take a Himalayan sage to see something so glaringly obvious.

clairedammit
clairedammit
8 years ago

I think Ronnie James Deodorant is Otis the Sweaty, just because of the name. I can’t be bothered to look for evidence, though.

BigMomma, your kitten is so adorable! After seeing your picture, I would be tempted to name her or him Cinnamon.

I’m really upset about Savita’s death, too upset to say anything coherent.

princessbonbon
8 years ago

have a warm crackling fire to sit in front of for a bit.

http://youtu.be/BLmwmX-mni8

Melody
8 years ago

I’ve had conversations with men about pregnancy before. They seem to think since pregnancy is natural it shouldn’t be harmful. *facepalm*
And apparently my views on pregnancy aren’t valid because I’ve never had a child…….And I’m left standing there like THERE ISN’T EVEN A POSSIBILITY OF YOU EVER GIVING BIRTH. So, why is YOUR opinion more valid than mine.
Besides I know people who have given birth. One of which almost killed her. When she got pregnant a second time she got an abortion because doctors told her that this time she would die.

And the kitten is adorable. I am so cranky that I don’t get to have pets. Silly apartment rules.

blitzgal
8 years ago

I’ve had conversations with men about pregnancy before. They seem to think since pregnancy is natural it shouldn’t be harmful. *facepalm*

Then they haven’t spent much time around pregnant women and new mothers. In the ten years that I’ve worked at the same job, 20 of my coworkers have had children. And I learn some new and horrific thing about the process with every one of them. Childbirth is extraordinarily traumatic on the body. Sometimes it amazes me that human beings have made it so long.

Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
8 years ago

“These guys lashing out were never the kings. They were the peasants, just like all the women and minorities they hate. In a functioning democracy (ours still needs some work, imo), they have far more power than they would have historically. In short, these racist assholes are fucking stupid.”

BINGO!

They have it better than they ever had it.

Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
8 years ago

“I’ve had conversations with men about pregnancy before. They seem to think since pregnancy is natural it shouldn’t be harmful. *facepalm*”

To be fair there’s a lot of women who think the same thing. Fact is there are a lot of smooth sailing pregnancies as well as difficult ones. Its both natural AND potentially harmful, as nature naturally is.

Hurricanes and tsunamis are natural too.

skeptifem
8 years ago

Then they haven’t spent much time around pregnant women and new mothers. In the ten years that I’ve worked at the same job, 20 of my coworkers have had children. And I learn some new and horrific thing about the process with every one of them. Childbirth is extraordinarily traumatic on the body. Sometimes it amazes me that human beings have made it so long.

Er, you know that a lot of what is “horrific” about childbirth currently is the way that it is managed, right? 99% of births take place in hospitals and almost none of the hospitals have policies conductive to satisfying childbirth experiences. Common place interventions include: chemical induction for provider convenience, time limits on labor for provider convenience, routine episiotomy, manual rupture of membranes, mandatory lithotomy position during pushing, deprivation of food/water, mandatory IV lines, the epidemic of unnecessary cesareans, separating moms from their babies, vaccuum/forceps extraction of the baby, etc. You can check out the Listening To Mothers Survey (or listening to mothers 2) to learn more. It includes thousands of women instead of just the ones in your life, along with discussions of alternatives that should be implemented but usually aren’t. It turns out a lot of the painful traumatic things being done to women during their labors and pregnancies are not really necessary at all. The Lamaze Foundation has a list of their recommendations for birth improvement in the US and virtually no OBs follow them.

And god damn, how is a woman supposed to experience birth when people tell her how fucking horrible it is all the time? Our movies and television shows are nothing but screaming women freaking the fuck out when they have babies, something that really doesn’t look that much like birth from women who aren’t convinced birth is a horrible trauma. Then there is the baby shower horror story exchange that women are so eager to inflict on each other. The normality of most births is completely covered up by dramatic depictions of it saturating the media. There are all these forces at work to scare the shit out of women having babies, so I’m not at all surprised that most women think its horrible when that is the only way they have seen birth their entire lives.

There are a variety of experiences out there with both pregnancy and childbirth. Calling it inherently traumatic or horrible is just as fucked up as trying to paint it as being universally easy and great. There is a lot of literature out there that is birth positive without being unrealistic about the difficulty that most women experience, like Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth. I’d check it out if you want some perspective from someone who has had extensive experience helping women have babies all over the world.

Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
8 years ago

The Manosphere needs yoga, meditation, some grounding in non-dualistic Vedanta philosophy.

Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
8 years ago

“Er, you know that a lot of what is “horrific” about childbirth currently is the way that it is managed, right? 99% of births take place in hospitals and almost none of the hospitals have policies conductive to satisfying childbirth experiences. ”

Midwifes have their own wings in some European hospitals and is taken very seriously as a profession there. However here in the states we do have Birthing Centers and of course home births, both assisted and unassisted are on the rise.

However in Europe the midwifes have to undergo university or medical school training and get a degree.

Sgt Grumbles
Sgt Grumbles
8 years ago

]I think Ronnie James Deodorant is Otis the Sweaty, just because of the name. I can’t be bothered to look for evidence, though.

If you’re gonna riff on his name, don’t use something that’s not the least bit insulting.

Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
8 years ago

For Goddess’s sake! I clicked on that John Salt link at Heartiste blog and could someone here please explain to me the Manosphere’s fascination with Islam?

Anon on November 7, 2012 at 3:19 pm

Whites must convert to islam.

The fuhrer said it: “if we were mahometans, we would have become the masters of the world”.

***

WTF?!?!?

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Sgt. Grumbles, if you’re so perfect, please start your own blog.

Sgt Grumbles
Sgt Grumbles
8 years ago

I never said I was perfect. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

clairedammit
clairedammit
8 years ago

Sgt. Grumbles, you do correct people a lot and tell themhthey’re not doing things right. I did find your reply to me just now quite annoying, especially since earlier in this thread you explained to me how to avoid the moderation filter after I said I had figured out what the problem was. I’ve seen you do it to other people too.

Maybe it’s just part of your schtick to go with your username, sort of like TYPING THINGS IN ALL CAPS goes with the dammit part of mine, but it’s still annoying.

Amused
8 years ago

Skeptifem: As someone who works in medical malpractice defense, I have to take issue with the statement that we have an “epidemic” of “unnecessary cesareans”. I see the opposite: an epidemic of children being born with permanently debilitating brachial plexus injuries and cerebral palsy because so many doctors are under insane pressure NOT to do a cesarean unless it’s a matter of life and death. (And there is a bit of a contradiction here too, as you criticize the use of forceps, but are also critical of cesarean section, which avoids the use of forceps in cases of cephalic disproportion.) I work on many, many truly heart-breaking cases in which it is decided, apparently, that it is better to make a child an invalid than to subject the mother to a “major surgery”, even when it’s what the mother would prefer (although many mothers are also brainwashed into thinking that having a cesarean makes the whole process a failure, and her, a bad mother). In my opinion as a mother, it is a belief of people who are completely detached from reality. If it’s YOUR child, the risk of a (probably easily treatable) infection and the transient pain of a healing incision are NOTHING compared to the lifetime of heartbreak and hardship that results from having a child who is permanently, incurably disabled. So what makes a cesarean “unnecessary”? I think that’s the definition people would need to agree upon before decrying the high rates of medical intervention in child birth.

We live in a very different world than we did 60-80 years ago. It was once almost unthinkable for a woman in her forties to have a child; now it’s commonplace. Today, many more complicated pregnancies are carried to term that would not have been in the past, and that increases the rate of cesareans. IVF is much more common and affordable than it once was, and hence you have more mothers with multiples — who are, for their part, more likely to need a cesarean, at least if they want to have healthy babies. The growth in the rate of birth by cesarean section isn’t necessarily an indication of a problem — I’d submit it’s just the opposite.

I’m also wary of idealizing midwives. Never mind that some of us don’t really understand why it’s necessary to endure many hours of hellish pain when safe, effective pain relief is available, let’s not forget that midwives cherry-pick their patients, while hospitals serve everyone who comes through the door; and when problems arise in midwife-assisted births (and they arise in about 25% of first-time births), the patient is shipped off to a nearby hospital anyway. Note that these problems, which will prompt a midwife to deal her patient off to a hospital, would include failure to progress and cephalic disproportion, both almost certain to necessitate surgery or forcible extraction. With that in mind, comparisons between the morbidity and mortality rates of hospitals and home births aren’t particularly accurate or fair.

clairedammit
clairedammit
8 years ago

Ignore the extra “h” – my cheap laptop has a cursed cursor.

katz
8 years ago

I think the Islam obsession is a collision of their crippling fear of brown people and their desire to oppress women. So when they encounter a culture that’s primarily brown people and has a reputation for oppressing women, they get stuck on it because their brains can’t handle it. It’s like telling an AI “this statement is false.”

Thermos H. Christ
Thermos H. Christ
8 years ago

Sidewinder’s plan is nothing but a shitty utopian pipe dream. If Paul Ryan can’t bring the tingles, then no one can. You simply cannot Game from a TV screen.

katz
8 years ago

Paul Ryan’s an asshole. Some of us tingle only for non-assholes.

inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

katz, I think that it’s in part because sensible Christianity and sensible Islam resemble each other, as do the radical facets of each. Each is a monotheistic religion that has been misused over the years.

As always, looking into a mirror is the most terrifying thing that these fools can do.

Thermos H. Christ
Thermos H. Christ
8 years ago

Although Obama was looking pretty rugged in that windbreaker during a recent Your Weekly Address. Coincidence? I think not.

Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
8 years ago

” I think that it’s in part because sensible Christianity and sensible Islam resemble each other, as do the radical facets of each. Each is a monotheistic religion that has been misused over the years.”

The nature of monotheism, as its come out of the middle east and starting with Judaism, is that it does have the concept of religious freedom and when it is confronted with it, does not respect it. That is a core tenent of the teaching. That there is only one god, theirs, and this god must, or at least should, be worshipped by everyone across the globe and those that do not do so but are worshipping other gods are worshipping “false gods”.

A strange concept to say the very least.

Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
8 years ago

” is that it does have the concept of religious freedom”

Correction: “does NOT have….”

pecunium
8 years ago

Patak’s Mango Pickle: The nature of monotheism, as its come out of the middle east and starting with Judaism, is that it does have the concept of religious freedom and when it is confronted with it, does not respect it.

That, in a word, is bullshit.

The Law, as regards Judaism is, even in the OT, only for Jews. The parables of Jesus show that he doesn’t give a shit what non-Jews/Christians do. Islam has the same principles as well.

The thing about them, which makes them, slightly different to the pan/polytheisms they arose in the midst of, is a lack of tolerance for Apostasy in their own ranks (see Deut. 18).

It’s not intrinsic to the Abrahamic religions.

The notable exception to the general run of tolerance was Rome, which had a state religion to which one had to maintain a public obedience. That was what caused the Christians (in particular, though there were some frictions with Jews they were given liberties) to have the problems they did. They were attacking the divine aid to the state.

When Constantine co-opted Christianity, that same mindset became part of the religion, because it too was drawing on divine assistance.

clairedammit
clairedammit
8 years ago

We know know there is an overlap between MRAs and fundamentalist Christians. Some fundamentalist Christians think that the world will end soon and that it will start in the Middle East, where most of the current residents are Muslim. I wonder if that’s part of where the obsession comes from?

katz
8 years ago

Yeah, Pickle, that’s bullshit. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all big religions. You can’t make giant, sweeping statements about what they all do or believe. (Well, you can, but you’ll always be wrong.)

Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
8 years ago

percunium, the people of that region already had religions and gods. then a man got the bright idea they should only worship god to the exclusion of all others. over the following years the people would back slide into their previous traditions of worshipping the other gods and intense shaming (to say the least) would ensue. back and forth like this for sometime until finally the Big Daddy meme stuck. Freud wrote “Moses and Monotheism” wherein he psychoanalysed this dynamic and its available online.

I mean, what? Why? Go on with yo’ bad self and worship all the gods or goddesses you want.

At least Jews don’t seek to convert others, normally at least. But Islam and Christianity are huge on global conversion and One World Religion.

What gives?

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

This is totally off topic but Katz, was it you I was talking to about hair dyeing the other day? I finally got round to doing mine. It is slightly brighter than I had anticipated, but will hopefully last more than a couple of weeks now.

Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
Patak's Mango Pickle, Wah!
8 years ago

I will say this though, I was recently pleasantly surprised to find out that Mormons, of all people, contributed HUGE donations to, and also helped to physically build a Hindu mandir in Utah. (The one that holds the huge Holi Festival every spring). Now, if Romney knew about this (or contributed himself) he would have garnered more votes from South Asian Americans and non-South Asian neo-Hindus like the Hari Krishnas and others, had he made it a talking point on his campaign trail.

( i myself didn’t vote before anyone jumps on me here)

katz
8 years ago

Nat, that looks great!

drst
drst
8 years ago

Dude, you’re seriously invoking Freud as an expert on Islam? lol

katz
8 years ago

Pickle:

You. Are. Wrong. That’s what gives. You think some religions are totally out there because you believe stuff about them that is not true. It turns out they are mostly composed of normal people with a wide variety of opinions and attitudes about everything.

And protip: Freud is not a great authority to turn to for, you know, facts.