Here’s a bit of, er, “wisdom” about women, plucked from the “Best Of” forum on NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum, and highlighted by our dear friend MarkyMark on his blog. Forgive the melodramatic phrasing; All MGTOWers Are Like That.
Take it away, TQR:
Your eyes are open now. You have finally put 2 and 2 together and realized the “modern woman” and everything about her is an illusion. Everything you, me, and millions of other men, both young and old have been raised to believe is a lie. Women really are the weaker sex. They aren’t equal and the worst part? They never were. …
For those who have the courage to face the truth about modern society, women, relationships, and marriage there is an upside. You’ll begin to gain a greater sense of self as a man and you will begin to understand your own worth. You’ll no longer find desperate fulfillment in the arms of a woman, but instead you’ll find fulfillment in your beliefs, your faith, your principles, your intelligence, your strength, and your natural authority. You are a man. You are the Father, the Husband, and the Adult. You lead, women follow. …
You are like a parent that has realized how spoiled, selfish, and arrogant the children have become. You begin to see them for what they are and instead of giving in to their selfish demands, whining, and temper tantrums you start setting rules, defining boundaries for behavior, and exacting discipline. You become a rock that cannot be moved or manipulated by them. Naturally the child will kick and scream and yell and fight you. But ultimately, the child will appreciate the fact that you have given their life what they’ve needed all along – order. Modern woman are no different . Though they may deny it, they are, in essence, overgrown children crying out for leadership because order brings comfort, security, and safety – everything women today desperately seek. Ironically, the very thing women rage against the most – submission – is the very thing they need.
Also, as you regain your manhood, don’t be surprised if women actually find you more attractive now. We are men. We have been raised to believe that being a man is bad – that masculinity is offensive. That testosterone is a disease men need to be cured of because it offends and scares women. No. Masculinity only scares women because it reminds them of what they aren’t and what they will never be….MEN. We already are what women want – by birth. Unfortunately, once you see women for what they are, it’s hard to say the same about them.
Yeah, I’m sure women are totally beating down TQR’s door, hungering for his manly mixture of misogyny and desperate self-delusion.
It’s eerie how this guy’s screed mirrors those women who say men are big babies in search of an eternal tit.
Oh, I remember the modesty survey. Even if you ignore the underlying faulty logic (that women and girls are responsible for whatever random things might cause horny teenage boys to think about sex, which they shouldn’t be thinking about because…why?), the specific stuff they called out was just so over the top and ridiculous. Boobs bouncing when girls walk make you “stumble”? What are the girls supposed to do about that – not walk? Personal hovercrafts for everyone with boobs?
@ EEB: That’s just so incredibly fucked up. I’ve said before that in my early teens i was hanging out a lot with youths from the local baptist church, and most of them intended to postpone sex until marriage. But we would go bathing together in the summer in, you know, actual BIKINIS. Somehow this didn’t cause the guys to just throw themselves at us and rape us. Seriously.
On homeschooling: We homeschooled our son through his last year or so of high school. He was so unhappy and unproductive that it just made sense. He taught himself computer programming, took classes at a community college, and got accepted to the U of Michigan when all was said and done. Our daughter is homeschooling her two kids. I’ve met a lot of the parents and kids in her homeschooling group, and I’m impressed. Not segregating the kids by age makes for a very different group compared to public school. Mostly the parents are quite invested in checking out how their kids are doing compared to their age group in public schools, as far as skills/learning go. There are different reasons for the decision to home school, from severe food allergies to distrust of the public system and everything in between. One thing is for sure, the kids in this group get plenty of time with other kids and the world at large. They aren’t sheltered from The World as can be the case with fundamentalist/patriarchal homeschooling.
Also, I wonder about the boys and how they cope with that stuff. If you’ve been trained to see your own sexual feelings as sinful and feel bad for having them for years and years, how can you then transition to even a very traditional and conservative marriage? Do they end up feeling guilty every time they catch sight of their wives and find them sexy? It just seems like it’s setting the boys up to be miserable too.
Off to read Sierra’s post.
Well, y’know, EEB, that whole outlook can be summed up as every woman (and girl, and even little girl) has a horseshoe magnet in her panties, and every man and boy has an iron bar in his Jockeys, and if a female human being gets an iron bar rammed into her horseshoe, it’s her fault for walking too close to it without shielding her magnet enough. And just wait, some MRA will use that exact analogy in all seriousness.
Also, another point for the “this is a cover for pedophiles” side…
Bill Gothard was the undisputed leader at my church. Yeah, a lot of these other writers and organizations had influence, but Gothard was the king. His word was law. (Honestly, they followed his rules more strictly than they ever followed the Bible.) And he had rules for everything…how to give birth (at home, with a midwife), how to have sex (never use protection, even if having another child will kill you–God will close your womb or give you the ability to carry the child, plus we’re supposed to “present our bodies as living sacrafices”–no sex on Sunday, when you’re on your period, and a few other rules I can’t remember now), how to parent (your typical authoritarian, borderline abusive rules), how to get married (parent guided courtship only), even how women should do their makeup (emphasize the eyes, not the mouth).
Well, some ex-followers have started pointing out many of the problems with the movement, including stories from several girls about the sexual abuse they endured, some of it from Gothard himself. I cannot tell you how completely unsuprised I am. A misogynistic, controlling asshole is sexually harassing his teenage interns, and using his religious conferences to pick vulnerable young women? Wow, I’m shocked.
Honestly, while I’m mostly disgusted (and sometimes amused) by a lot of these people, Gothard is the only one I truly hate. When I was thirteen, a good friend of mine (actually, she was the first girl I ever fell in love with) attempted suicide because of him. See, Gothard taught that if you looked at someone romantically before you were ready to get married, that was a sin. If you thought of a boy as anything more than a brother in Christ, it meant that you didn’t love Jesus enough. I remember listening to her cry, “I’m trying! I want to love Jesus! But I can’t help thinking about how cute ____ is,” sobbed like she was confessing some horrible crime. The stress of that, plus all the other rules and expectations of the program (and her fucked up family, to be honest), brought her to swallowing a bunch of pills when she was 14. Then her parents sent her away–not to someplace where she could get help, oh no, even though they could have more than afforded a good program–they sent her to Gothard HQ to work for the summer (not that she got paid, it was all “volunteer”), completely cut off from her friends (mail in and out is tightly controlled, and of course they had no access to the internet).
So, I hate that fucker.
Yes! Yes yes yes! Where’s my personal hovercraft?
“Also, I wonder about the boys and how they cope with that stuff. If you’ve been trained to see your own sexual feelings as sinful and feel bad for having them for years and years, how can you then transition to even a very traditional and conservative marriage? Do they end up feeling guilty every time they catch sight of their wives and find them sexy? It just seems like it’s setting the boys up to be miserable too.”
Cassandra,
My husband grew up in this sort of community, and it has left him with some… interesting hang ups. He grew to closely associate sexual feelings with the guilt of doing something that he ought not to do, and the result is that anytime he or I do something that’s impractical, imprudent, or unhealthy he gets an erection.
And it doesn’t have to be something big or even sexual. I have seen the man get aroused over the thought of eating a cheeseburger, because it would mean cheating on his diet. I’ve been jumped before because I wasn’t sorting the laundry the way one ought. If I wear a short skirt or have a beer, he is completely done.
On the whole, he is pretty well adjusted- we all have our kinks, and he accepts and laughs about his. But I don’t believe that would be true for him if he hadn’t been able to step outside the community in early adulthood and gain some perspective on how unhealthy it can be.
I can’t stop reading the links. Take this guy, for example – he’s just so FUNNY.
http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/news_and_reports/what_hath_darwin_wrought.aspx
A full year of celebratory splendor. It was supposed to be like a royal wedding, with important people waving from carriages and cheering in the streets! That this did not happen totally proves that Darwin was wrong and that the “totalitarian scientist class” is being rejectedby the British people, wacky dominionist dude.
@CassandraSays: yes. Conservative churches produce people who are deeply conflicted about their sexuality; it’s one of the reasons porn use is rampant among the Bible Belt.
@estraven: er. I homeschooled in the super-Patriarchal system–and it was more or less identical to what you’re describing. It’s stood me in good stead through the years. I mean, except for all the garbage indoctrination.
@ Cassandra: Exactly. The sad part is that this man has a daughter…
What’s sad is that it’s not even the pedo factor that’s the worst thing about this movement. How they treat women and children in these families is CPS worthy in some cases.
I’ve been reading the links about “child training” and it’s even more horrible than I expected. Beating an infant because it squirms while its diaper is being changed?
Since Manboobz is all about using mockery as a way to ease the pain of knowing that people like this exist, I offer another lulzy article from Mr Botkin.
Yes, dear, I’m sure Palin appreciates your deep concern for her emotional wellbeing.
http://visionarydaughters.com/2008/09/the-miraculous-sanctification-of-the-republican-party-by-geoffrey-botkin
Also! Apparently American football can be added to the list of activities that are unacceptable as they incite lust and lead people to stumble. Can’t say it’s ever worked that way for me, but there you go.
I know we all know this, but a problem with strong lines of thinking regarding modesty is that victim blaming and confirmation bias become interchangeable- are one in the same.
Guys have issues with their masculinity if it requires women to be second class.
@ CassandraSays
Well, I did once infuriate my brothers (all played Varsity Football in High School) when I admitted I didn’t understand why football was coded for the “straight” guys and drama was for the gay kids. Like, I was a huge drama geek in high school, and you’d think the straight boys would be all over that…part of a group that is mostly girls, very close and touchy-feely, and with backstage costume changes and pre-show make-up drama, your chances of seeing a half-clothed girl near 100%. Football, on the other hand…all guys, tumbling all over each other on the field, slapping each other’s asses, showering together every day….but that’s what draws the straight dudes? They, uh, didn’t appriciate the observation. (Also! Joking! Of course straight kids join drama and gay kids play football; I’m just playing with the stereotypes.)
Somehow I don’t think this is what they were referring to, though.
EEB:
I read (I can’t remember where) a pretty horrifying account of a teenage guy undergoing “conversion therapy” (so glad that California outlawed that for teens–now other states can follow suit). He did talk about going to football games to try to make him straight and it, uh, not working.
When it comes to homeschooling, I think it should be an option–especially for those who have tried to the public school system and found it wanting–but not without some pretty strict oversight, both on academics and to make sure that it isn’t a cover for abuse. One of the problems with the modern system in the US is that there is effectively no regulation, and homeschooling removes the best chance children have for coming into contact with adults who can say “You know, that isn’t right” and get them help.
I do think community college as an alternative to high school is an excellent choice, though I wouldn’t call it homeschooling. My sister took the last took years of high school at the local CC full time and loved it–and the school district even paid tuition!
Otis!
You showed up, told everyone you were dropping Truth Bombs, said something, and left. I know you’re only here to help us and all, but when you leave like that it looks like maybe you can’t use logic. And if you really just want to drop Truth Bombs, then whatever statement you want to make should be fairly easy to present as a rational argument, you know?
It’s not really about getting the last word or whether or not you’re a man. It’s about whether or not you’re willing to engage in logical, rational discussion.
It looks like you’re not 🙁
@wordsp1nner
I cannot tell you how happy I am that they got rid of conversion therapy for minors! (Although for many kids it’ll just get covered up and called something else…I’m under no illusions that it’s going to stop for all kids, but hopefully it’ll put an end to those sick camps.) It doesn’t just destroy individual children, it destroys families when those “success stories” go on to marry (many times, each other) and they realize after years and a couple kids that they just can’t continue the facade.
And I completely agree about homeschooling regulation! I think homeschooling can be wonderful if it’s done well, and the parents care about educating the whole child (including involving them in social activities). But when I was homeschooled as a kid, my mom was so busy that I literally wrote my own lesson plans, did the work, than graded my own assignments and tests (Mom did grade essays and research papers). And I did that in between baby-sitting, cooking, and taking care of the house. It’s only because I really really enjoyed school that I learned anything, and as it was, I was way behind in math when I made it to college because I’d never learned how to do it properly. And I had friends who were much worse off than I was…a good friend of mine was quite intelligent, but she was also the third of fifteen children, and didn’t learn how to read until she was 10. And several of the parents were very open about the fact that they didn’t spend a lot of time on their daughter’s schooling…the important thing was for them to learn how to take care of their brothers and sisters, teach the little ones, keep house, cook, etc. (And isn’t it funny how all of these mothers of 15+ kids have the same philosophy about how their daughter’s time should be spent…it couldn’t just be that they know it’s impossible to raise and educate that many children without significant help, right?) After all, the girls weren’t going to college and they certainly weren’t ever going to work…they were going straight from Dad to Husband, and all they needed to know was how to be a good wife and mother. And this is all perfectly legal.
(Also, and I don’t know if it’s even possible to legally adress this, much of the study materials these families use is almost worse than no schooling at all. History and Science books are full of staright up lies, and usually more than a little racism, homophobia, and misogyny. I think it’s abusive to utterly brainwash your kids like that. They fill them with so much false information that it becomes difficult for them to navigate the real world, if they ever escape, and terrorize them with lies so they’ll be too afraid to leave.)
And, like you said, there has to be someone to catch the kids who are being abused. People find this hard to believe, but I know from experience that most of these children will never have a meaningful encounter with a non-fundamentalist Christian. The only people they allow their children to talk to think and act just like they do. There are list of approved Christian doctors (who won’t complain when you bring your infant in with “failure to thrive” because you’ve been following the Ezzo’s Babywise plan, or ignoring and beating your infants a la the Pearls), Christian sports leagues, even Christian-owned buisnesses (so you can smack your child in the store without worrying about somone calling 9-1-1!) All the people who would normally catch abuse are out of the picture. That is why I strongly urge people, from the bottom of my heart: if you think a child is being abused, <i<please call the authorities. You may be that child’s only hope; don’t count on someone else catching it. You can report anonymously. It’s better to annoy an innocent parent with a visit from CPS than to allow abuse to continue. Look at the article on the Pearls above: multiple parents across the country have killed their children while trying to follow their plan for discipline. You could be saving a life.
I’m not sure if you guys are talking a specfic church or not, but have you heard about the North Carolina church where they Kidnapped a gay man (who admittedly was a member of their church) in the hopes of converting him back to straightness? And when that failed they kicked him out.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/22/north-carolina-man-word-of-faith-fellowship-confinement-gay_n_2001895.html
@ Melody: *splutter* I don’t even…the hell…I just…they…
What the fuck is wrong with these people?!?
The discussion of the fundamentalist homeschooling “curriculum” makes me think of some documentaries I’ve seen about Amish teenagers. The filmmakers followed them during their party year, rumspringa, when the kids get a chance to dip their toes into mainstream culture while the rest of the community politely turns their heads. Several of the kids interviewed talked about how they might like to live like an average American. The education they’d received as Amish youth (which ends after the equivalent of 8th grade) made it impossible for them to make it in the real world. Keeping the kids sheltered and ignorant seemed to make it a given that most kids would stay in the community; at the time that the films were made, about 90% of Amish youth ultimately chose to stay in the church.
It’s a pretty slick little piece of social engineering. Make it so that kids don’t know about anything they might be missing… and if they are tempted by the outside world, make it so that they can’t hack it there.
OT, but I think we could all use a laugh right now. Here’s a pretty damned funny remembrance of a Mississippi Southern Baptist church’s alternative Halloween party, which included a “holy wiener” roast and a tract-or-treat:
http://friedchickenforthesoul.blogspot.com/2008/10/holy-wiener.html
@EEB
I’ve actually seen ads for fundamentalist boot camps for kids in a few California magazines. They’re packaged as “boarding school for troubled teens”, but at one point I decided to Google some of the names and yep, they’re fundamentalist boot camps, Pentacostal associated as far as I could tell (this was before I encountered stuff like Joel’s Army, so if there were any dogwhistles I would have missed them). I wish I’d had a better idea of exactly what those “schools” were about at the time, because I would have pestered the magazines to stop running those particular ads. It’s hard to wrap your head around the idea that stuff like that is legal – kids die at those schools and the government doesn’t seem to be doing anything much about it.
Basically I think American culture leans far too heavily in the direction of assuming that parents have 100% authority over their kids, and not nearly heavily enough towards allowing the government to intervene when the kids are being mistreated. There have been problems with this in the UK too, but it seems like at some point social services over there caught on to the fact that what was happening to kids in Dominionist groups wasn’t just standard parents being assholes child abuse, and social workers are (at least in theory) now being trained to be on the lookout for that specific kind of abuse. The UK is a much more interventionist culture in general, though.
(I seriously think that this is one of those huge cultural divides that’s masked by a common language, attitudes towards the extent to which parents own children and the extent to which the government should be allowed to intervene in that relationship. The stuff that happens to kids in the situations you’re describing is one of the main reasons why I’m in favor of governments being able to intervene early and often, and one of my main misgivings about homeschooling, the way that it isolates kids from one of the major contact points in terms of tracking child welfare.)