Here’s a bit of, er, “wisdom” about women, plucked from the “Best Of” forum on NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum, and highlighted by our dear friend MarkyMark on his blog. Forgive the melodramatic phrasing; All MGTOWers Are Like That.
Take it away, TQR:
Your eyes are open now. You have finally put 2 and 2 together and realized the “modern woman” and everything about her is an illusion. Everything you, me, and millions of other men, both young and old have been raised to believe is a lie. Women really are the weaker sex. They aren’t equal and the worst part? They never were. …
For those who have the courage to face the truth about modern society, women, relationships, and marriage there is an upside. You’ll begin to gain a greater sense of self as a man and you will begin to understand your own worth. You’ll no longer find desperate fulfillment in the arms of a woman, but instead you’ll find fulfillment in your beliefs, your faith, your principles, your intelligence, your strength, and your natural authority. You are a man. You are the Father, the Husband, and the Adult. You lead, women follow. …
You are like a parent that has realized how spoiled, selfish, and arrogant the children have become. You begin to see them for what they are and instead of giving in to their selfish demands, whining, and temper tantrums you start setting rules, defining boundaries for behavior, and exacting discipline. You become a rock that cannot be moved or manipulated by them. Naturally the child will kick and scream and yell and fight you. But ultimately, the child will appreciate the fact that you have given their life what they’ve needed all along – order. Modern woman are no different . Though they may deny it, they are, in essence, overgrown children crying out for leadership because order brings comfort, security, and safety – everything women today desperately seek. Ironically, the very thing women rage against the most – submission – is the very thing they need.
Also, as you regain your manhood, don’t be surprised if women actually find you more attractive now. We are men. We have been raised to believe that being a man is bad – that masculinity is offensive. That testosterone is a disease men need to be cured of because it offends and scares women. No. Masculinity only scares women because it reminds them of what they aren’t and what they will never be….MEN. We already are what women want – by birth. Unfortunately, once you see women for what they are, it’s hard to say the same about them.
Yeah, I’m sure women are totally beating down TQR’s door, hungering for his manly mixture of misogyny and desperate self-delusion.
(Reacting to original blog post:) So the way to feel better about yourself as a man is to start thinking of women as being worse. Yep, because putting down another group to feel better about who you are is a GREAT solution for everyone involved. It never goes wrong or has catastrophic side effects. Good luck, bra.
Also, not sure what happened to EEB because can’t find the comment, but i’m very sorry that it did 🙁
Just found it. EEB, I’m so sorry.
@EEB
Wow, just wow, this is the reason I want to become rich, so that I can have a reasonable sum of money to devote to making it so that stuff like that doesn’t happen. Virtual hugs from me too.
Yeah, that’s so awful. I’m so sorry that happened to you.
a MGOTW accusing anybody of being immature and a whiner is about as ironic as it gets.
Wow EEB, that’s horrible. I’m sorry that happened to you. Feel free to rant here; I’ve seen many a rant, and everyone here is very supportive. Cyber hugs if you want ’em.
Shorter OP: The only way to feel good about yourself is to put down half the population.
Otis, no offense, but last time I asked you to use logic you skipped off and now I feel like you’re just here to be a jerk and I don’t like that 🙁
I do use logic but I had nothing else to add on that thread or that topic. I’m a man, so I don’t have an obsessive need to always get in the last word.
EEB: If you are comfortable sharing, this is a fine place. Thank you for trusting us,and for sharing.
@EEB Victim blaming is a problem. I too was molested as a child. The man (full grown mind you) apologized to me while I was in college. And then he pretty much said that it wouldn’t have happen if I hadn’t tempted him. I was 8! How much tempting could I have been doing???? I haven’t recouped from it either. I haven’t had sex with a man and tend to only be able to be intimate these days when alcohol is present.
I hope you are able to work things out with your parents. And I hope you are able to find peace even though something awful happen to you.
@aworldanonymous
I wish I was rich enough to decrease the possibility of something awful happening to me too.
Otis, serious question for you – were you raised with the idea what women are inferior or did you come to this idea when you were older? Did your parents treat each other as equals?
my parents raised me to believe that men and women were equals but it wasn’t something they spent a particularly large amount of time dealing with. It was from pop culture that I was bombarded 24/7 from the time I was an infant with the idea that women were just as good as men.
EEB, so sorry all that happened to you!
I’ve been meaning to write about quiverfull stuff for awhile. I know aboutut No Longer Quivering. What might be some other good resources? And some (pro)quiverfull sites/blogs I should look at for material?
Melody, that’s awful. So sorry.
Oh, David. I almost feel bad about doing this to you, but after running this blog, you can probably handle it…
The worst shit is definitely at No Greater Joy, IMHO. Run by the writers of probably the worst child-raising manual in existance, “No Greater Joy” (you know, the book that kills kids), it has articles and advice for parents and spouses that will make you puke. Debi Pearl also wrote “Created to Be His Helpmeet” and gives such wonderful advice as a) if your husband is abusive it’s because you aren’t submissive and godly enough (he will be encouraged to love and protect a submissive woman, donchaknow, but if you challenge his authority it buises his ego and frustrates him…but men are stable and logical while women are emotional children?), b) you have to do everything your husband tells you, even if you think it’s wrong, because you are accountable to your husband while your husband will be accountable to God for your actions (which goes along with the belief that your relationship with God is through your husband, the High Priest of the family…a daughter’s relationship with God is through her father, of course, and then her husband) c) along with that, because you can never be independent as a woman, if your father dies and you are unmarried, you are under the headship of your oldest brother, while if your husband dies and your father is dead, you are under the headship of your oldest son (if your children are still minors, sometimes a pastor can step in…acting as regent until the son comes of age?), d) You can never divorce, even if your husband is molesting your kids. In that case, you can send hiim to prison, which will probably be good for the marriage! You can look at what you did to cause the situation, and prison will give your husband time to “get right with God” so he’ll be a better spouse when he gets out of jail (yes, she advises that you take him back if he’s “truly repented”). Oh, there’s more, but I’ve probably blocked it out. Summary: They are evil. Unfortuantely, they are also very popular…in the church I grew up in, “No Greater Joy” was given to new parents and “Created to Be His Helpmeet was always given to new brides. Millions of copies are out there with many, many devoted followers who read them like they are scripture and regard the Pearls as modern prophets. No, I’m not exaggerating.
Visionary Daughters is the website for the Botkin sisters, the pioneers of the Stay and Home Daughters Movement. What is a SAHD? Well, college is bad, you know, because it takes you out from under the authority of your father and teaches you lots of things that can only hurt you. All you need to know is how to be a good wife and mother, and the best way to do that is to stay at home and devote yourself to learning from your mother all the homemaking arts, practicing by caring for your siblings (families with ten or twenty kids really like this movement!), and, I swear to God this is word-for-word “learn how to be a good wife by serving your father.” His desires must become your desires, from believing everything he does, to wanting to help him with his work so he can be as successful as possible, to even wearing your hair in the style he likes best and wearing the dresses you know are his favorite (just like you will when you get married!). OMG SO SQUICKY but they are also becoming very popular and influencing many young quiverfull girls.
Ladies Against Feminism. Oh, God, you want it to be a pardoy site so bad but it insists on being real. I cannot summarize all the nauseating crap on this site. You have to see it for yourself. Honestly, there are so many insane, gag-worthy articles, most of them written by women, that you will have material for a year. You could start a whole new blog: LAFboobz. (Tragically, though, it’s a lot better than some of the other quiverfull/patriarchy blogs–they actually acknowledge that men can be abusive! and that if your husband wants you to sin, you don’t have to submit! also, women are intelligent and should be partners with their husbands! and even childless women can have value!–but that isn’t saying much.)
And i have to include Vision Forum Every quiverfull/patriarchy family knows Vision Forum, I really don’t think that’s an exaggeration. They supply all the materials you need to raise manly boys and feminine girls…appropriate toys (toy guns for the lads, dolls and toy sewing machines for the girls), homeschool materials, books, videos, etc. They have conferences. And Doug’s Blog is a treasure trove of misogyny.
There’s a lot more I could give you, but these are the big names, and it’s getting to be my bedtime. Also, there’s so much material here, I don’t want to overwhelm you. And the whole culture is incredibly incestuous (in more ways than one, sadly), so they link and quote each other all the time, and if you get started there, it will definately lead you down the rabbit hole.
(Um…it doesn’t look like this posted, so I’m going to try breaking it up and posting again. I apologize if this ends up posting twice.)
Oh, David. I almost feel bad about doing this to you, but after running this blog, you can probably handle it…
The worst shit is definitely at No Greater Joy, IMHO. Run by the writers of probably the worst child-raising manual in existance, “No Greater Joy” (you know, the book that kills kids), it has articles and advice for parents and spouses that will make you puke. Debi Pearl also wrote “Created to Be His Helpmeet” and gives such wonderful advice as a) if your husband is abusive it’s because you aren’t submissive and godly enough (he will be encouraged to love and protect a submissive woman, donchaknow, but if you challenge his authority it buises his ego and frustrates him…but men are stable and logical while women are emotional children?), b) you have to do everything your husband tells you, even if you think it’s wrong, because you are accountable to your husband while your husband will be accountable to God for your actions (which goes along with the belief that your relationship with God is through your husband, the High Priest of the family…a daughter’s relationship with God is through her father, of course, and then her husband) c) along with that, because you can never be independent as a woman, if your father dies and you are unmarried, you are under the headship of your oldest brother, while if your husband dies and your father is dead, you are under the headship of your oldest son (if your children are still minors, sometimes a pastor can step in…acting as regent until the son comes of age?), d) You can never divorce, even if your husband is molesting your kids. In that case, you can send hiim to prison, which will probably be good for the marriage! You can look at what you did to cause the situation, and prison will give your husband time to “get right with God” so he’ll be a better spouse when he gets out of jail (yes, she advises that you take him back if he’s “truly repented”). Oh, there’s more, but I’ve probably blocked it out. Summary: They are evil. Unfortuantely, they are also very popular…in the church I grew up in, “No Greater Joy” was given to new parents and “Created to Be His Helpmeet was always given to new brides. Millions of copies are out there with many, many devoted followers who read them like they are scripture and regard the Pearls as modern prophets. No, I’m not exaggerating.
Visionary Daughters is the website for the Botkin sisters, the pioneers of the Stay and Home Daughters Movement. What is a SAHD? Well, college is bad, you know, because it takes you out from under the authority of your father and teaches you lots of things that can only hurt you. All you need to know is how to be a good wife and mother, and the best way to do that is to stay at home and devote yourself to learning from your mother all the homemaking arts, practicing by caring for your siblings (families with ten or twenty kids really like this movement!), and, I swear to God this is word-for-word “learn how to be a good wife by serving your father.” His desires must become your desires, from believing everything he does, to wanting to help him with his work so he can be as successful as possible, to even wearing your hair in the style he likes best and wearing the dresses you know are his favorite (just like you will when you get married!). OMG SO SQUICKY but they are also becoming very popular and influencing many young quiverfull girls.
Part II…
Ladies Against Feminism. Oh, God, you want it to be a pardoy site so bad but it insists on being real. I cannot summarize all the nauseating crap on this site. You have to see it for yourself. Honestly, there are so many insane, gag-worthy articles, most of them written by women, that you will have material for a year. You could start a whole new blog: LAFboobz. (Tragically, though, it’s a lot better than some of the other quiverfull/patriarchy blogs–they actually acknowledge that men can be abusive! and that if your husband wants you to sin, you don’t have to submit! also, women are intelligent and should be partners with their husbands! and even childless women can have value!–but that isn’t saying much.)
And i have to include Vision Forum Every quiverfull/patriarchy family knows Vision Forum, I really don’t think that’s an exaggeration. They supply all the materials you need to raise manly boys and feminine girls…appropriate toys (toy guns for the lads, dolls and toy sewing machines for the girls), homeschool materials, books, videos, etc. They have conferences. And Doug’s Blog is a treasure trove of misogyny.
There’s a lot more I could give you, but these are the big names, and it’s getting to be my bedtime. Also, there’s so much material here, I don’t want to overwhelm you. And the whole culture is incredibly incestuous (in more ways than one, sadly), so they link and quote each other all the time, and if you get started there, it will definately lead you down the rabbit hole.
Choose your hairstyle and dresses in order to appeal to your father’s tastes? Holy crap! And I mean that literally.
The more I read about this movement the more I feel like it really was set up by pedophiles as a way to cover their tracks.
OK, I’m not looking at the childrearing sites because ick, but I found this on Visionary Daughters – it’s part of a webinar about beauty.
The Lord is my Hairdresser?
@EEB I am now suitably horrified. I thought the youtube comments were bad enough.
@Cassandrasays
Yep, agreed. Super gross. You want to dress in a way that your father likes? And your fathers desires should be yours….doesn’t that lead to being a lesbian though? Assuming of course your father desires women.
@ David: Hmm…looks like I lost another comment, with the second half. I’m just going to stop for now, because I don’t know if my computer is glitching or the comments are getting stuck in moderation. Plus, I’m exhausted. I’ll check tomorrow if it showed up; if not, I’ll drop another couple links.
@ Melody: I’m so sorry that happened. Thank you for sharing. I haven’t been intimate with anyone, yet. I’m not saying I won’t, just, right now, it’s not something I’m interested in pursuing. It does bother me…I think I was a lesbian before I was molested, I remember having crushes on my girl friends and pretending to crush on boys so I could fit in, but I don’t know. I don’t want to give J. so much power that he can control my sexuality years and years after this happened. (Not that I think there’s anything wrong with being gay, of course, or that I would even want to change it. I love being gay, and if it was a choice, I probably would have checked the “lesbian” box, anyway.) I also have absolutely not interest in having sex, and very little sex drive. Again, I wonder if it’s because of him. My mom is basically asexual, she told me that she only has sex because it makes Dad happy (and she likes feeling close to him), and because she wanted to have children. She also told me once that she’s never had an orgasm, but added that she just didn’t think it was a big deal, and the whole sex thing was over-hyped, anyway. (She also sounded like she really meant it, and wasn’t just saying it to make herself–or me–feel better. Sex just isn’t a big deal to her, at all.) So maybe it’s just genetic, natural? I know that there are some people who are naturally asexual, maybe I always would have been an asexual lesbian even if I’d never been molested or sexually assaulted…but there’s still this part of me that wonders. And it makes me angry to think that he would have that much control over me, even now. But I also don’t know if I want to “fix” it (or if I even can), when the thought of having sex with someone just skeeves me out.
@ Everyone: Wow, thank you guys so much for listening and for your support. Yeah, I do feel safe talking about this, almost everyone is so amazing here (and the people who aren’t are so pathetic–and easily shot down–that they don’t matter). It’s incredibly freeing to share this with supportive people. I also hope I can help people understand the very real dangers of the Christian Patriarchy movement…it’s not all Dugger cuteness and silly blog posts, there are very real dangers, real children who are being abused. It’s one of the reasons I’ve been doing so much research on the movement, even though my family has been out of it for over a decade…maybe it’s presumptuous of me, but I want to write a book talking about these issues. It’s a hidden subculture that most people don’t understand, but they need to be aware of what’s happening to these kids. (I don’t mean to spam, but if anyone wants to, I wrote a little about my experience with religiously motivated child abuse and what I think people should look out for.)
Aw, Christ, there they are. Fuck it. Sorry for the spam, David. I’ll go away and give others a chance to talk. 😉
@ EEB and Melody
I really wish I had the power to go back in time and pull your kid-selves out of those situations. A lot of the stuff we talk about here is too ridiculous to get all that upset about, but the modern fundamentalist movement is too big, too serious, and too harmful to women to just snark at the way we snark at, say, MGTOW.
Though I reserve the right to snark at idiots who think that God wants them to do their hair and makeup in a holy way.