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Melodramatic MGTOWer: “Though they may deny it, [women] are, in essence, overgrown children crying out for leadership.”

Women love manly men!

Here’s a bit of, er, “wisdom” about women, plucked from the “Best Of” forum on NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum, and highlighted by our dear friend MarkyMark on his blog. Forgive the melodramatic phrasing; All MGTOWers Are Like That.

Take it away, TQR:

Your eyes are open now. You have finally put 2 and 2 together and realized the “modern woman” and everything about her is an illusion. Everything you, me, and millions of other men, both young and old have been raised to believe is a lie. Women really are the weaker sex. They aren’t equal and the worst part? They never were. …

For those who have the courage to face the truth about modern society, women, relationships, and marriage there is an upside. You’ll begin to gain a greater sense of self as a man and you will begin to understand your own worth. You’ll no longer find desperate fulfillment in the arms of a woman, but instead you’ll find fulfillment in your beliefs, your faith, your principles, your intelligence, your strength, and your natural authority. You are a man. You are the Father, the Husband, and the Adult. You lead, women follow. …

You are like a parent that has realized how spoiled, selfish, and arrogant the children have become. You begin to see them for what they are and instead of giving in to their selfish demands, whining, and temper tantrums you start setting rules, defining boundaries for behavior, and exacting discipline. You become a rock that cannot be moved or manipulated by them. Naturally the child will kick and scream and yell and fight you. But ultimately, the child will appreciate the fact that you have given their life what they’ve needed all along – order. Modern woman are no different . Though they may deny it, they are, in essence, overgrown children crying out for leadership because order brings comfort, security, and safety – everything women today desperately seek. Ironically, the very thing women rage against the most – submission – is the very thing they need.

Also, as you regain your manhood, don’t be surprised if women actually find you more attractive now. We are men. We have been raised to believe that being a man is bad – that masculinity is offensive. That testosterone is a disease men need to be cured of because it offends and scares women. No. Masculinity only scares women because it reminds them of what they aren’t and what they will never be….MEN. We already are what women want – by birth. Unfortunately, once you see women for what they are, it’s hard to say the same about them.

Yeah, I’m sure women are totally beating down TQR’s door, hungering for his manly mixture of misogyny and desperate self-delusion.

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MKlein
MKlein
8 years ago

(Reacting to original blog post:) So the way to feel better about yourself as a man is to start thinking of women as being worse. Yep, because putting down another group to feel better about who you are is a GREAT solution for everyone involved. It never goes wrong or has catastrophic side effects. Good luck, bra.

Also, not sure what happened to EEB because can’t find the comment, but i’m very sorry that it did 🙁

MKlein
MKlein
8 years ago

Just found it. EEB, I’m so sorry.

aworldanonymous
8 years ago

@EEB

Wow, just wow, this is the reason I want to become rich, so that I can have a reasonable sum of money to devote to making it so that stuff like that doesn’t happen. Virtual hugs from me too.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

Yeah, that’s so awful. I’m so sorry that happened to you.

Otis the Sweaty
Otis the Sweaty
8 years ago

a MGOTW accusing anybody of being immature and a whiner is about as ironic as it gets.

sabresguy5
sabresguy5
8 years ago

Wow EEB, that’s horrible. I’m sorry that happened to you. Feel free to rant here; I’ve seen many a rant, and everyone here is very supportive. Cyber hugs if you want ’em.

sabresguy5
sabresguy5
8 years ago

Shorter OP: The only way to feel good about yourself is to put down half the population.

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

Otis, no offense, but last time I asked you to use logic you skipped off and now I feel like you’re just here to be a jerk and I don’t like that 🙁

Otis the Sweaty
Otis the Sweaty
8 years ago

I do use logic but I had nothing else to add on that thread or that topic. I’m a man, so I don’t have an obsessive need to always get in the last word.

pecunium
8 years ago

EEB: If you are comfortable sharing, this is a fine place. Thank you for trusting us,and for sharing.

Melody
8 years ago

@EEB Victim blaming is a problem. I too was molested as a child. The man (full grown mind you) apologized to me while I was in college. And then he pretty much said that it wouldn’t have happen if I hadn’t tempted him. I was 8! How much tempting could I have been doing???? I haven’t recouped from it either. I haven’t had sex with a man and tend to only be able to be intimate these days when alcohol is present.

I hope you are able to work things out with your parents. And I hope you are able to find peace even though something awful happen to you.

@aworldanonymous
I wish I was rich enough to decrease the possibility of something awful happening to me too.

Kim
Kim
8 years ago

Otis, serious question for you – were you raised with the idea what women are inferior or did you come to this idea when you were older? Did your parents treat each other as equals?

Otis the Sweaty
Otis the Sweaty
8 years ago

my parents raised me to believe that men and women were equals but it wasn’t something they spent a particularly large amount of time dealing with. It was from pop culture that I was bombarded 24/7 from the time I was an infant with the idea that women were just as good as men.

EEB
EEB
8 years ago

Oh, David. I almost feel bad about doing this to you, but after running this blog, you can probably handle it…

The worst shit is definitely at No Greater Joy, IMHO. Run by the writers of probably the worst child-raising manual in existance, “No Greater Joy” (you know, the book that kills kids), it has articles and advice for parents and spouses that will make you puke. Debi Pearl also wrote “Created to Be His Helpmeet” and gives such wonderful advice as a) if your husband is abusive it’s because you aren’t submissive and godly enough (he will be encouraged to love and protect a submissive woman, donchaknow, but if you challenge his authority it buises his ego and frustrates him…but men are stable and logical while women are emotional children?), b) you have to do everything your husband tells you, even if you think it’s wrong, because you are accountable to your husband while your husband will be accountable to God for your actions (which goes along with the belief that your relationship with God is through your husband, the High Priest of the family…a daughter’s relationship with God is through her father, of course, and then her husband) c) along with that, because you can never be independent as a woman, if your father dies and you are unmarried, you are under the headship of your oldest brother, while if your husband dies and your father is dead, you are under the headship of your oldest son (if your children are still minors, sometimes a pastor can step in…acting as regent until the son comes of age?), d) You can never divorce, even if your husband is molesting your kids. In that case, you can send hiim to prison, which will probably be good for the marriage! You can look at what you did to cause the situation, and prison will give your husband time to “get right with God” so he’ll be a better spouse when he gets out of jail (yes, she advises that you take him back if he’s “truly repented”). Oh, there’s more, but I’ve probably blocked it out. Summary: They are evil. Unfortuantely, they are also very popular…in the church I grew up in, “No Greater Joy” was given to new parents and “Created to Be His Helpmeet was always given to new brides. Millions of copies are out there with many, many devoted followers who read them like they are scripture and regard the Pearls as modern prophets. No, I’m not exaggerating.

Visionary Daughters is the website for the Botkin sisters, the pioneers of the Stay and Home Daughters Movement. What is a SAHD? Well, college is bad, you know, because it takes you out from under the authority of your father and teaches you lots of things that can only hurt you. All you need to know is how to be a good wife and mother, and the best way to do that is to stay at home and devote yourself to learning from your mother all the homemaking arts, practicing by caring for your siblings (families with ten or twenty kids really like this movement!), and, I swear to God this is word-for-word “learn how to be a good wife by serving your father.” His desires must become your desires, from believing everything he does, to wanting to help him with his work so he can be as successful as possible, to even wearing your hair in the style he likes best and wearing the dresses you know are his favorite (just like you will when you get married!). OMG SO SQUICKY but they are also becoming very popular and influencing many young quiverfull girls.

Ladies Against Feminism. Oh, God, you want it to be a pardoy site so bad but it insists on being real. I cannot summarize all the nauseating crap on this site. You have to see it for yourself. Honestly, there are so many insane, gag-worthy articles, most of them written by women, that you will have material for a year. You could start a whole new blog: LAFboobz. (Tragically, though, it’s a lot better than some of the other quiverfull/patriarchy blogs–they actually acknowledge that men can be abusive! and that if your husband wants you to sin, you don’t have to submit! also, women are intelligent and should be partners with their husbands! and even childless women can have value!–but that isn’t saying much.)

And i have to include Vision Forum Every quiverfull/patriarchy family knows Vision Forum, I really don’t think that’s an exaggeration. They supply all the materials you need to raise manly boys and feminine girls…appropriate toys (toy guns for the lads, dolls and toy sewing machines for the girls), homeschool materials, books, videos, etc. They have conferences. And Doug’s Blog is a treasure trove of misogyny.

There’s a lot more I could give you, but these are the big names, and it’s getting to be my bedtime. Also, there’s so much material here, I don’t want to overwhelm you. And the whole culture is incredibly incestuous (in more ways than one, sadly), so they link and quote each other all the time, and if you get started there, it will definately lead you down the rabbit hole.

EEB
EEB
8 years ago

(Um…it doesn’t look like this posted, so I’m going to try breaking it up and posting again. I apologize if this ends up posting twice.)

Oh, David. I almost feel bad about doing this to you, but after running this blog, you can probably handle it…

The worst shit is definitely at No Greater Joy, IMHO. Run by the writers of probably the worst child-raising manual in existance, “No Greater Joy” (you know, the book that kills kids), it has articles and advice for parents and spouses that will make you puke. Debi Pearl also wrote “Created to Be His Helpmeet” and gives such wonderful advice as a) if your husband is abusive it’s because you aren’t submissive and godly enough (he will be encouraged to love and protect a submissive woman, donchaknow, but if you challenge his authority it buises his ego and frustrates him…but men are stable and logical while women are emotional children?), b) you have to do everything your husband tells you, even if you think it’s wrong, because you are accountable to your husband while your husband will be accountable to God for your actions (which goes along with the belief that your relationship with God is through your husband, the High Priest of the family…a daughter’s relationship with God is through her father, of course, and then her husband) c) along with that, because you can never be independent as a woman, if your father dies and you are unmarried, you are under the headship of your oldest brother, while if your husband dies and your father is dead, you are under the headship of your oldest son (if your children are still minors, sometimes a pastor can step in…acting as regent until the son comes of age?), d) You can never divorce, even if your husband is molesting your kids. In that case, you can send hiim to prison, which will probably be good for the marriage! You can look at what you did to cause the situation, and prison will give your husband time to “get right with God” so he’ll be a better spouse when he gets out of jail (yes, she advises that you take him back if he’s “truly repented”). Oh, there’s more, but I’ve probably blocked it out. Summary: They are evil. Unfortuantely, they are also very popular…in the church I grew up in, “No Greater Joy” was given to new parents and “Created to Be His Helpmeet was always given to new brides. Millions of copies are out there with many, many devoted followers who read them like they are scripture and regard the Pearls as modern prophets. No, I’m not exaggerating.

Visionary Daughters is the website for the Botkin sisters, the pioneers of the Stay and Home Daughters Movement. What is a SAHD? Well, college is bad, you know, because it takes you out from under the authority of your father and teaches you lots of things that can only hurt you. All you need to know is how to be a good wife and mother, and the best way to do that is to stay at home and devote yourself to learning from your mother all the homemaking arts, practicing by caring for your siblings (families with ten or twenty kids really like this movement!), and, I swear to God this is word-for-word “learn how to be a good wife by serving your father.” His desires must become your desires, from believing everything he does, to wanting to help him with his work so he can be as successful as possible, to even wearing your hair in the style he likes best and wearing the dresses you know are his favorite (just like you will when you get married!). OMG SO SQUICKY but they are also becoming very popular and influencing many young quiverfull girls.

EEB
EEB
8 years ago

Part II…

Ladies Against Feminism. Oh, God, you want it to be a pardoy site so bad but it insists on being real. I cannot summarize all the nauseating crap on this site. You have to see it for yourself. Honestly, there are so many insane, gag-worthy articles, most of them written by women, that you will have material for a year. You could start a whole new blog: LAFboobz. (Tragically, though, it’s a lot better than some of the other quiverfull/patriarchy blogs–they actually acknowledge that men can be abusive! and that if your husband wants you to sin, you don’t have to submit! also, women are intelligent and should be partners with their husbands! and even childless women can have value!–but that isn’t saying much.)

And i have to include Vision Forum Every quiverfull/patriarchy family knows Vision Forum, I really don’t think that’s an exaggeration. They supply all the materials you need to raise manly boys and feminine girls…appropriate toys (toy guns for the lads, dolls and toy sewing machines for the girls), homeschool materials, books, videos, etc. They have conferences. And Doug’s Blog is a treasure trove of misogyny.

There’s a lot more I could give you, but these are the big names, and it’s getting to be my bedtime. Also, there’s so much material here, I don’t want to overwhelm you. And the whole culture is incredibly incestuous (in more ways than one, sadly), so they link and quote each other all the time, and if you get started there, it will definately lead you down the rabbit hole.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Choose your hairstyle and dresses in order to appeal to your father’s tastes? Holy crap! And I mean that literally.

The more I read about this movement the more I feel like it really was set up by pedophiles as a way to cover their tracks.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

OK, I’m not looking at the childrearing sites because ick, but I found this on Visionary Daughters – it’s part of a webinar about beauty.

#7: The Focal Point
Being a Good Steward of Your Face and Hair

The Lord is my Hairdresser?

Melody
8 years ago

@EEB I am now suitably horrified. I thought the youtube comments were bad enough.

@Cassandrasays
Yep, agreed. Super gross. You want to dress in a way that your father likes? And your fathers desires should be yours….doesn’t that lead to being a lesbian though? Assuming of course your father desires women.

EEB
EEB
8 years ago

@ David: Hmm…looks like I lost another comment, with the second half. I’m just going to stop for now, because I don’t know if my computer is glitching or the comments are getting stuck in moderation. Plus, I’m exhausted. I’ll check tomorrow if it showed up; if not, I’ll drop another couple links.

@ Melody: I’m so sorry that happened. Thank you for sharing. I haven’t been intimate with anyone, yet. I’m not saying I won’t, just, right now, it’s not something I’m interested in pursuing. It does bother me…I think I was a lesbian before I was molested, I remember having crushes on my girl friends and pretending to crush on boys so I could fit in, but I don’t know. I don’t want to give J. so much power that he can control my sexuality years and years after this happened. (Not that I think there’s anything wrong with being gay, of course, or that I would even want to change it. I love being gay, and if it was a choice, I probably would have checked the “lesbian” box, anyway.) I also have absolutely not interest in having sex, and very little sex drive. Again, I wonder if it’s because of him. My mom is basically asexual, she told me that she only has sex because it makes Dad happy (and she likes feeling close to him), and because she wanted to have children. She also told me once that she’s never had an orgasm, but added that she just didn’t think it was a big deal, and the whole sex thing was over-hyped, anyway. (She also sounded like she really meant it, and wasn’t just saying it to make herself–or me–feel better. Sex just isn’t a big deal to her, at all.) So maybe it’s just genetic, natural? I know that there are some people who are naturally asexual, maybe I always would have been an asexual lesbian even if I’d never been molested or sexually assaulted…but there’s still this part of me that wonders. And it makes me angry to think that he would have that much control over me, even now. But I also don’t know if I want to “fix” it (or if I even can), when the thought of having sex with someone just skeeves me out.

@ Everyone: Wow, thank you guys so much for listening and for your support. Yeah, I do feel safe talking about this, almost everyone is so amazing here (and the people who aren’t are so pathetic–and easily shot down–that they don’t matter). It’s incredibly freeing to share this with supportive people. I also hope I can help people understand the very real dangers of the Christian Patriarchy movement…it’s not all Dugger cuteness and silly blog posts, there are very real dangers, real children who are being abused. It’s one of the reasons I’ve been doing so much research on the movement, even though my family has been out of it for over a decade…maybe it’s presumptuous of me, but I want to write a book talking about these issues. It’s a hidden subculture that most people don’t understand, but they need to be aware of what’s happening to these kids. (I don’t mean to spam, but if anyone wants to, I wrote a little about my experience with religiously motivated child abuse and what I think people should look out for.)

EEB
EEB
8 years ago

Aw, Christ, there they are. Fuck it. Sorry for the spam, David. I’ll go away and give others a chance to talk. 😉

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ EEB and Melody

I really wish I had the power to go back in time and pull your kid-selves out of those situations. A lot of the stuff we talk about here is too ridiculous to get all that upset about, but the modern fundamentalist movement is too big, too serious, and too harmful to women to just snark at the way we snark at, say, MGTOW.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Though I reserve the right to snark at idiots who think that God wants them to do their hair and makeup in a holy way.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

@EEB I hope you’re taking care of yourself and being gentle with respect to your needs.

@CassandraSays

The lord is my hairdresser
He maketh me to lie down at the basin: he leadeth the shampoo and conditioner through the flowing waters
He restoreth my colour; he leadeth me in the paths of tones and highlights for his name’s sake.
Yea, though I look like the shadow of death with foils in my hair, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy trashy magazine and thy instant coffee they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies (narrow tooth combs and curlers): thou anointest my head with product; my parking meter time runneth over.
Surely natural colour and permanent body shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will return to the the house of the hairdresser for ever, for the results are merely temporary.

🙂

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

EEB – that stuff is so fucked up words just fail.

Melody – cyber hugs if you want them.

Why can’t all the humans who do this stuff just turn into cats?

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

OMG kiwigirl, you win an internet!

Melody
8 years ago

@the Kitteh’s unpaid help
But if they turned into cats you would never know if the cat you have was a sweet lovable cat or a monster.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Yea, though I walk in the valley of formaldehyde-based products, I shall fear no evil, because thy holiness shall cure the resulting cancer.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Thank you so much for the Visionary Daughters site, EEB. This shit is comedy gold.

Some might say that since your universe is a fantasy universe, God’s ethical system does not apply. But if His moral standard doesn’t have jurisdiction over this film – if, since this film isn’t a “Christian” film, we shouldn’t require it to line up with the Bible – then who could dare say bumping your mother out of the way would be wrong? Who’s to say any other solution would be morally better? Are we admitting that there is some overarching standard after all?

We’ve got good news for you: You, Rapunzel, imaginary creature though you are, are not ultimately under the lordship of Disney Studios, but of Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:5 commands all men to “take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ” – which means every imagination, every script page, and every film frame. Christ demands that every man’s mind and the stuff in it bow the knee, and that would include you. And His moral system – His law – is still the standard by which your moral system must be measured. In other words, stabbing your mother would be wrong, not because it’s not the sort of thing a nice girl with a dream would do, not because it would be politically incorrect, not because it would disturb children – but because it breaks one of His commandments (Ex. 20:13). And that’s why, even though you’re a fairy tale creature, we’re going to respond to you as though you were a real person.

You know, Disney tend to be rather, um, enthusiastic about enforcing their copyright. If it comes down to Disney versus Jesus, my money’s on Disney winning that lawsuit.

Nova
Nova
8 years ago

@ EEB and Melody: I’m so sorry to hear what happened to you. {{{healing hugs}}} if they’ll help and you want them.

For quiverfull research, those sites are probably some of the best (worst?) to start with. Once you delve into some of the odder adherents, it gets really hair raising. The high risk unassisted home births with no prenatal care, husbands deciding to quit their jobs to read the Bible for years leaving their enormous families in abject poverty, the “frugal fever” with children sleeping on Costco shelving, rather than in real beds. It’s pretty sick and disturbing.

(TW for pedo yuckiness.)

Voddie Baucham and Maranatha Chapman are pretty interesting, from a pedo squicky standpoint. Voddie stated, point blank that men leave their wives because they want the affections of younger women and that God gave them a daughter for that. No, seriously. He actually said that: http://www.thatmom.com/2009/11/19/voddie-baucham-explains-the-video-clip-on-older-men-yearning-for-younger-women/

Maranatha Chapman was married to a 27 year old at the ripe old age of 15 ( I may be wrong on the ages, but not by much.) He’d noticed her and expressed interest in her a few years prior, making her somewhere around… 12. Their daughter was also married as a teenager to a man almost twice her age. http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com/archives/000151.php

Those thinking that this is a cover for pedophilia don’t seem to be too far off the mark, in some cases.

Rahu
Rahu
8 years ago

Kiwi girl – I love the hairdressing psalm!

Not nearly as funny as yours, but still pretty good, I read that if you take that psalm, translate it into Inuit, then do a literal translation back to English, it starts “The Lord is my great keeper, he does not want me. He shoots me down on the beach and pushes me into the water.”

Ice
Ice
8 years ago

This thread has simultaneously made me cry and laugh.

Quiverful movement sounds terrifying. This is the exact reason why, in case of home schooling, I say f*ck freedom of choice and applaud my country for making regular, public elementary education obligatory.

Makes me hopeful it weeds out the worst of this sh*t. *rages on*

kysokisaen
8 years ago

“The Lord is my great keeper, he does not want me. He shoots me down on the beach and pushes me into the water.”

…and that’s why there was really only one set of footprints in the sand…

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

But if they turned into cats you would never know if the cat you have was a sweet lovable cat or a monster.

I think the all-encompassing ebil of Basement Cat, and the all-encompassing goodness of Ceiling Cat, combine to wipe out the human monstrousness and replace it with kitty monstrousness/cuteness.

I had one cat who was a real health hazard. He left such gouges in my arm once (not long after I got him and didn’t know he had a thing about being patted from the front) that my workmates said I looked like I’d been got at by a vampire with bad aim.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ Nova

I kept thinking that nope, the dude couldn’t literally have said that God gives men daughters to that they can deal with their attraction to younger women – come on, really? Pedo apologists are usually a bit more subtle than that.

But nope, not only did he say it, when (politely and respectfully) called out on it he just doubled down and started accusing the people who objected of wanting to kill him. Wow.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Ugh, these people have such messed up relationships with their bodies. From an article about “modest” clothing.

To wear inadequate clothing is to deny that you are a sinner and that you need a Saviour. Immodesty is actually a denial of the gospel, and it has no place in the life of a believer. Wearing inadequate clothing says that you don’t need God’s covering, that you don’t think you’re sinful, or that you are content in your sin. Calvin said that immodesty was an expression of despising the Master, “who intended clothing to be a sign of shame.”

And to think that I used to think the “dirty pillows” thing from Carrie was a bit over the top.

Ice
Ice
8 years ago

Wait!

Wasn’t God angry at Adam and Eve FOR starting to cover up?

What is consistency.

palmedfire
8 years ago

Quiverful movement sounds terrifying. This is the exact reason why, in case of home schooling, I say f*ck freedom of choice and applaud my country for making regular, public elementary education obligatory

I don’t quite agree. Homeschooling can be a hellhole of ideological indoctrination, but I’ve known quite a few people who’ve homeschooled or are homeschooling their children because the local public schools weren’t giving their children a good education. Either because the children in question had learning disabilities (namely dyslexia and AD/HD) that the local systems couldn’t really deal well with or because the kids were too far advanced of their peers in at least some subjects, and the school systems wouldn’t bump the kids up a grade – thus resulting in board, troublemaking kids. And in one instance, my cousin was homeschooled for a year to avoid having to be in classes with her rapist. The school didn’t believe the rape had occurred, and thus wouldn’t switch their classes.

So yea, while homeschooling can be bad, I don’t think it’s fair to say it *always* is.

Kim
Kim
8 years ago

I just finished reading the story by Millipede over on No Longer Quivering about how she got into and out of the Patriachy movement (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2012/04/millipede-part-one/)

What a twisted setup. Her husband was not in any way capable of being the head of a household, and yet there he was insisting he was better than her at making decisions and she should never argue with him. If it had been left up to him, they’d have starved to death.

I had always assumed that in those sort of systems, the men would at least have to answer to each other if they were being crappy at supporting their families, but no. It seems like they all just assumed him being a man meant that he always knew what to do and shouldn’t be questioned.

It was a fascinating story though, about how a woman can get sucked into something so bad for her. I’m glad she managed to get out though, and that she is hopefully happy finally.

Ice
Ice
8 years ago

I didn’t say that it *always* is. I’m just basing my assumption on my experiences (which are not from US anyway). I am personally very vocal against home schooling because I think the amount of bad it can create simply outweighs the amount of good.

Granted, I’ve also seen the amount of work/preps that is required for kids who, as you say, wouldn’t normally fit in. I guess our schooling systems are different?

In short, from my perspective, I do not want kids removed from the reach of trained professionals and social services, because the kids I see most typically unable to fit in are the ones that require the social services the most.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

Wasn’t God angry at Adam and Eve FOR starting to cover up?

Not really. Before the fall they were naked and felt no shame about it. After the fall they became embarrassed and covered up in leaves. If I remember correctly, God then gave them clothes, which are presumably a more efficient way of covering up than merely wrapping some leaves around you.

Covering up and being embarrassed about nudity is described as a psychological consequence of becoming a sinner. It’s not like God tells them “now you’re sinners, so now you OUGHT to cover up whether you like it or not”.

lauralot89
8 years ago

Hugs for everyone who wants them.

This has nothing to do with anything, but do any Wonder Woman readers know who the Tim she’s referring to in the image for this post is? The only Tim I know of in DC Comics is Tim Drake, and I really don’t want to imagine Diana falling in love witha Robin…

palmedfire
8 years ago

@Ice

Ah, fair enough. That’s pretty much my dad’s view too, mostly because he grew up in Atlanta GA, and he remembers when they desegregated the schools and suddenly a whole bunch of people were homeschooling so their precious little white kids didn’t have to go to school with the ‘dirty colored folk’. >.<

Here there are at least pretty strict homeschooling standards to make sure everyone's getting the same basic level of education at least. I

Sonia
Sonia
8 years ago

I was raised according to the principles described in comments here about (hitherto unknown to me) new patriarchal movements. However, my childhood was ages ago, and my parents were very traditional Roman Catholics. I escaped abuse, although approached a few times by male authority figures, because I was a naturally suspicious child. I hated the way my family was run. My father was the supreme authority, answerable in theory to the priests but in practical terms only to god. My mother answered to him, and we numerous children were to be seen and not heard.

I hated to defer to male authority. I hated my father and the priests. Every day was an exercise in unfairness and male privilege. To this day, I cannot work for a male boss. It brings back all those feelings of submission, oppression, and powerlessness.

Myoo
Myoo
8 years ago

@Lauralot
I’m not a Wonder Woman reader, but some searching reveals that she is talking about Tim Trench, a detective from the pre-crisis era. In this synopsis of The New Wonder Woman issue 181 we can see a description of that exact panel:

By the time they arrive it is night fall and the tired trio make their way to their bedrooms. But Diana cannot sleep…not immediately…as she muses that she is becoming quite fond of Tim Trench. He is crusty but he is also strong and decisive…a man! At times he almost makes her forget about Steve…almost.

princessbonbon
8 years ago

From the Millipede story, this sums up most of the married MRAs I see:

What it did make me realize is that for all of my ex’s attempts to forbid me from leaving, he really wasn’t that attached. I think that this is true with a lot of men who don’t want to let go. The wife that they have come secretly loath is still a bastion of support and comfort. They hate loosing the safety net; that’s all.

They do not care about their wives, they just want someone to keep doing the housework and be there when needed.

EEB
EEB
8 years ago

@CassandraSays

Yeah, the modesty movement is incredibly fucked up in a lot of ways. Sierra wrote a really good post about how it creates life-long issues for both boys and girls (using the Duggars as an example), and I would add that it’s also a product of and supports rape culture.

A while ago, a group with several members who are part of the new Patriarchy movement, put out the Modesty Survey. Lots of parents and youth groups use this to teach their daughters how to dress and act. Basically, they asked a bunch of teenage boys what tempts them, what is a “stumbling block.” It takes two twisted ideas–1) That you sin whenever you have a lustful thought, and 2) That girls have the responsibility to not incite lust in boys, causing them to “stumble”–and takes them to their logical conclusion. The survey created a huge list of behaviors and clothing choices that girls need to avoid because the surveyed boys said they were a problem (apparently, everyone involved forgot what it was like to be a teenage boy, when the right kind of wallpaper can cause an erection. I mean, Jesus, I lived with three younger brothers who all went through puberty, and going hiking on a mountain with a rock formation that kind of looked like boobs if you squinted made them think sexual thoughts).

If you’re interested, things girls need to avoid if they don’t want to be immodest and cause their “brothers” to sin: sitting cross-legged if you’re wearing pants; wearing pants at all; not wearing nylons (but not nude-colored nylons, those are a stumbling block); putting on lipgloss in public; lying down; stretching; the lines of your undergarments being visible under your clothing (VPL, y’all, are not just ugly–they incite lust!); adjusting your bra in public; and, my personal “favorite”, your boobs bouncing when you walk (and this is why so many girls I know–myself included–absolutely hated the fact that we started devloping and tried everything we could to hide our breasts). Oh, yeah. That’s not going to create horrible stress and terrible body images, much less contribute to any sort of “victim-blaming” mentality. I mean, if nude nylons and visible panty lines are slutty, the girl in the short skirt was definitely asking for it. And if a girl stretching is a stumbling block for the boys around her, of course a girl dancing seductively at a club (especially if she’s *gasp* wearing eye make-up or tight pants) is just going to cause uncontrollable lust in the guys around her. What could they do? It’s not their fault she tempted them! They’re helpless victims of hormones!

Gag me with a spoon. So glad I’m out of that toxic environment, but I feel horrible for the kids who are still trapped.